Doctor Who Series 7.13 - The Name of the Doctor (Spoilers, Obviously)

[Berithil]

Alright, kinda surprised this hasn't already been made yet (you're slacking, TimeLord!), but it might have something to do with the website being down and I want to talk about it...

Anyways, the series finale! What do yall think?

As far as I'm concerned, I really liked it, despite my annoyance with Moffat messing with the pre-established continuity. I find it interesting that the Doctor's name ISN'T his most guarded secret, and I'm still wondering what John Hurt's "Doctor" will be all about (probably has something to do with the Time War), and the Doctor said that he was "him" but not "The Doctor".

Also, I'm a bit curious as to what exactly the Whisper Men were. Were they an extension of the Great Intelligence?

Have at it!

 

[Ldude893]

Eh, I didn't learn anything new about the Doctor from this episode aside from the Doctor's supposed 'secret' incarnation, and even then it's just a tease at the very end. And yes, I was slightly annoyed of Moffat messing with continuity, but I did enjoy the inclusion of the past Doctors within the episode, especially the one where Clara interacts with the First Doctor.

I'm a bit sad that now I have to wait 6 months before I get to see Doctor Who again.

 

[Robot Number V]

Damn, I've been waiting for this thread for hours. Anyway...Yeah, I actually have some pretty major problems with this one:

Spoiler: Part 1

For one thing, this episode managed it's time downright horribly. I mean, we spend about 15 minutes on that psychic tea-party, and only about 10 on that whole, "Everything is changing because the Doctor is dead" bit...If not less. This seems like it would've benefited from multiple parts.

Secondly, SO MUCH of this episode goes absolutely nowhere. This is kinda related to my first problem. Jenny's dead! No she's not, she's fine, and its never mentioned again! So...Why did you have them kill her in the first place? And look! This crazy murder knows stuff about the Doctor for some reason that is not adequately explained AT ALL. We're 3 minutes in aaaand he's gone. Never mentioned again. OK....So why did you have to deliver that exposition in the most pointlessly confusing and convoluted way possible? Why not just have the Whisper Men kidnap them, and leave behind the coordinates for the Doctor. I mean, the Doctor can't actually spring their trap if he doesn't even know where to find the cheese. That would've made WAY more sense, and would've taken less then half the time. And we wouldn't have had to put up with all the bullshit explanations, like "There are patterns in the universe if you know how to listen" (or something like that) or "Time Travel has always been possible in dreams". Normally, I wouldn't mind this stuff, but in this case, it really took time away from the big finale. I know Moffat likes needlessly complicated plots, but it seems like his priorities were just fucked in this episode.

Spoiler: Part 2

Thirdly, the villain. Maybe it's because I never saw Classic Who (In my defense, I'm an American who was born in 1991, and I didn't know what Doctor Who was until around 2010) but I still have no idea who this guy is. As far as I can tell, he's just a...well, a mind without a body. A Wikipedia page told me that he's some kind of Cthulu-type thing as well, but they haven't even remotely hinted at that on the show. And his motivation? Well...He wants a body, except not in this episode, he wants to kill the Doctor. Because he hates the Doctor because of reasons. And the Whisper Men...Well, if anyone can tell me ANYTHING about these guys that goes beyond physical description of their appearance or spooky lyric-writing abilities, I'll have to ask you where you came by the information, because it sure as hell wasn't in the episode.

Fourthly...It's just kind of a loosely-written episode. Think about the 3rd season finale, another episode that brought back a classic villain: We are given a clear reason for why the villain is acting now. We know why certain guest characters are there, and others aren't. Everything is tied up nice tight. In this one, so much of it is just....random. Why NOW, specifically? How does he even KNOW about Trenzalore? Or the Doctor's Time Stream? Why did he want a body before, but now he's OK with dying as long as he takes the Doctor with him? There's just not as much context for everything thats happening as I would've liked.

*deep breath*

I guess the short version is that this episode somehow managed to be equal parts needlessly padded AND needlessly convoluted at the same time. There was a concept for a good episode here, but for some reason Moffat thought the psychic tea party was more important then you know, the actual meat of the episode.

 

[TimeLord]

Yeah, site down, I went to bed. So sue me

Excellent episode. It's always good to see the Doctor forced to confront his own past and future.
Loved the use of the old Doctors at the start and how they explained Clara and how she is the impossible girl. It was a bit of a waste to see a long running villain killed off so quickly, but I suppose he did try and rewrite the history of the universe so there's that.

Also Valeyard reference! I hope we see some more Valeyard stuff in the future.
On that note... John Hurt as the Doctor? Rumour is he is the Time War Doctor.
See this article for some minor spoilers about him and the 50th Anniversary show in Novemeber

http://www.tv3.ie/entertainment_article.php?locID=1.803.813&article=103035

Also Matt Smith has confirmed he will be staying for series 8

 

[klown]

Damn, I've been waiting for this thread for hours. Anyway...Yeah, I actually have some pretty major problems with this one:

Spoiler: Part 1

For one thing, this episode managed it's time downright horribly. I mean, we spend about 15 minutes on that psychic tea-party, and only about 10 on that whole, "Everything is changing because the Doctor is dead" bit...If not less. This seems like it would've benefited from multiple parts.

Secondly, SO MUCH of this episode goes absolutely nowhere. This is kinda related to my first problem. Jenny's dead! No she's not, she's fine, and its never mentioned again! So...Why did you have them kill her in the first place? And look! This crazy murder knows stuff about the Doctor for some reason that is not adequately explained AT ALL. We're 3 minutes in aaaand he's gone. Never mentioned again. OK....So why did you have to deliver that exposition in the most pointlessly confusing and convoluted way possible? Why not just have the Whisper Men kidnap them, and leave behind the coordinates for the Doctor. I mean, the Doctor can't actually spring their trap if he doesn't even know where to find the cheese. That would've made WAY more sense, and would've taken less then half the time. And we wouldn't have had to put up with all the bullshit explanations, like "There are patterns in the universe if you know how to listen" (or something like that) or "Time Travel has always been possible in dreams". Normally, I wouldn't mind this stuff, but in this case, it really took time away from the big finale. I know Moffat likes needlessly complicated plots, but it seems like his priorities were just fucked in this episode.

Spoiler: Part 2

Thirdly, the villain. Maybe it's because I never saw Classic Who (In my defense, I'm an American who was born in 1991, and I didn't know what Doctor Who was until around 2010) but I still have no idea who this guy is. As far as I can tell, he's just a...well, a mind without a body. A Wikipedia page told me that he's some kind of Cthulu-type thing as well, but they haven't even remotely hinted at that on the show. And his motivation? Well...He wants a body, except not in this episode, he wants to kill the Doctor. Because he hates the Doctor because of reasons. And the Whisper Men...Well, if anyone can tell me ANYTHING about these guys that goes beyond physical description of their appearance or spooky lyric-writing abilities, I'll have to ask you where you came by the information, because it sure as hell wasn't in the episode.

Fourthly...It's just kind of a loosely-written episode. Think about the 3rd season finale, another episode that brought back a classic villain: We are given a clear reason for why the villain is acting now. We know why certain guest characters are there, and others aren't. Everything is tied up nice tight. In this one, so much of it is just....random. Why NOW, specifically? How does he even KNOW about Trenzalore? Or the Doctor's Time Stream? Why did he want a body before, but now he's OK with dying as long as he takes the Doctor with him? There's just not as much context for everything thats happening as I would've liked.

*deep breath*

I guess the short version is that this episode somehow managed to be equal parts needlessly padded AND needlessly convoluted at the same time. There was a concept for a good episode here, but for some reason Moffat thought the psychic tea party was more important then you know, the actual meat of the episode.

I'm going to answer your points to the best of my knowledge below

Spoiler

For your point 1: The tea party was more important than everything dies because of the doctor not existing. It was expecting you the viewer, the constant companion to the doctor, to use your memory and imagination to picture a world where every black day was let to succeed. Besides if they dwelled on it too long it would be similar to Left Turn from Series 4.

Point 2: They just stopped Jenny's heart, it's an easy fix. The Murder is pretty well explained, he hears the whispers of the universe, or more probably, the whispers of the Great Intelligence to manipulate the doctor into going to Trenzalore. If he had just kidnapped Jenny/other two I forget their names, then River would not have known what was going on, and Clara wouldn't have been able to hear River.

Point 3: The biggest thing I think you misunderstood was that The GI didn't want to just kill the Doctor, he wanted to hurt him in the most vicious way possible. It was striking on the fact that The Doctor is seen as a good person in the eyes of the people he saves, but in the eyes of those he kills, he is a murderer, and that then leads to the future doctor.

Point 4: Now is a relative term. He had to do it now, because now is when it happens. And he knows about Trenzalore because everyone really knows about Trenzalore, that's why they wanted to kill the doctor earlier. The GI is happy to die, knowing he was able to cause more damage to the doctor, he would destroy the doctor.

I really liked this episode myself, I think it was a great send off, and answer to why Clara is so impossible. Even gives us a beautifully executed cliff hanger. One that I know I'll be thinking about until it comes to play.

On that note... John Hurt as the Doctor? Rumour is he is the Time War Doctor.
See this article for some minor spoilers about him and the 50th Anniversary show in Novemeber

http://www.tv3.ie/entertainment_article.php?locID=1.803.813&article=103035

Also Matt Smith has confirmed he will be staying for series 8

I really like that as an idea, showing us the Time War Doctor. The one who caused all the mental anguish for them. I for one can't wait to see how it plays out.

 

[Remus]

Whisper Men - possibly an evolution of the Silence. It'd make for an interesting play on words if nothing else. As for John Hurt as the Doctor, he definitely has that grizzled war veteran look to him, a version of the Doctor that wasn't the Doctor. But if he didn't take the name, which other name did he use? Signs point to the Valeyard, Doctor 12.5, a version that was likely blocked out of the Doctor's memory for the horrors he committed. I suspect this Doctor will be born in battle, similar to the clone of the 10th, making him far more brutal than his predecessor.

 

[Gorog2]

The episode was good in my opinion, and when the episode was over it left me all like...
OMG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_S5cXbXe-4

I believe John Hurt is the 9th, and is forgotten due to his acts in the time war...He may be the one Doctor who ended the Timelords, the Daleks and time war... but at such a price, that he gave up being the Doctor...

All in all, it was a good episode...

 

[Sixcess]

I thought it was excellent. As someone who has loathed River Song since her very first appearance I was surprised to find her story in this episode extremely touching. Moffat did some of his best emotional writing in a long time and Kingston dialled it down a lot, and for the first time ever that character actually worked for me.

Yes, the pacing was rather off, which has been rather a recurring problem this year, but that's less important if you think of it as part one of two, which it really is since it's leading directly into the 50th anniversary.

And I'm really looking forward to the anniversary episode now. Even with only one line John Hurt exuded class and gravitas and I feel he could be the best major guest star the show has had since Derek Jacobi.

 

[Albino Boo]

I'm rather amused that all those angry internet types banging on about power of love endings have been somewhat shown up by Moffat. The Rings of Akhaten turned out not to be the power of love but the solution turned out to be the fact Clara had lived 1000s of lives throughout time and space. Angry internet 0 Steven Moffat 1.

Eh, I didn't learn anything new about the Doctor from this episode aside from the Doctor's supposed 'secret' incarnation, and even then it's just a tease at the very end. And yes, I was slightly annoyed of Moffat messing with continuity, but I did enjoy the inclusion of the past Doctors within the episode, especially the one where Clara interacts with the First Doctor.

I'm a bit sad that now I have to wait 6 months before I get to see Doctor Who again.

You really expect them to keep continuity over 675 hours of television?

 

[Dryk]

And I'm really looking forward to the anniversary episode now. Even with only one line John Hurt exuded class and gravitas and I feel he could be the best major guest star the show has had since Derek Jacobi.

What I find most interesting about his character so far is that Eleven understands that he didn't have a choice in whatever happened, but still hates and disowns him for it.

 

[Headsprouter]

I thought this episode and the last were terribly corny, like that part where the guy keeps repeating the title, demanding the Doctor's name.

Also the long pauses from River Song. Did I mention I'm not a big fan of River Song? She appears TOO MUCH.

I also don't like that the companion usurps being the Doctor's companion, no, she can't have that esteemed position AND have an enjoyable personality, she has to be the "Impossible girl"!

Blegghhh. It was okay. I like the Strax and Jenny, the reptile lady is okay, I was never a big fan of that race.

But John Hurt? Pretty damn cool. And so was Doctor's grave. The Whisper Men were okay. Too silence-y.

 

[Thetwistedendgame]

Too bad Eccleston won't be making an appearance in the anniversary episode. I bet this is all somehow John Barrowman's fault.

 

[CriticalMiss]

I was kind of underwhelmed by the episode, for a series finale it didn't really do much for me so I'm going to assume it was just being used as a springboard for the 50th anniversary episode which will be the real series finale. And the bad thing about that is that we have to wait months for it to be released!

But I did find the explanation for Clara to be kind of cool. It's just about the only thing that is really explained in the episode.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Meh. A step up from the usual overblown finales, in that they didn't bother saying that this was the most epic story ever, but very meh, and got tiresomely predictable.

Whisper Men...same problem as they keep running into, those could have been interesting monsters if they'd bothered to in any way develop them at all. Just coming up with a potentially scary monster and throwing it at the screen doesn't work.

I did not like them adding Clara to old adventures. Please, please, please may they not go all Lucas and stick her in new DVDs of those stories.

Least they seem to have finally gotten rid of River. Hopefully for good this time.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Whisper Men - possibly an evolution of the Silence. It'd make for an interesting play on words if nothing else. As for John Hurt as the Doctor, he definitely has that grizzled war veteran look to him, a version of the Doctor that wasn't the Doctor. But if he didn't take the name, which other name did he use? Signs point to the Valeyard, Doctor 12.5, a version that was likely blocked out of the Doctor's memory for the horrors he committed. I suspect this Doctor will be born in battle, similar to the clone of the 10th, making him far more brutal than his predecessor.

Interesting that you mention the Valeyard -- that was my first thought when they introduced John Hurt's character, that he was the Valeyard. From what little I know about the character, despite technically being the same person, they don't exactly get along. I mean, wasn't the Valeyard the prosecutor in Trial of a Timelord?

The second thing I thought was that he was the 12th incarnation, and that 11 knew about what he had done the same way he knew where to find his tomb. I briefly considered the time war thing, but I kind of discarded it until seeing this thread -- I hadn't thought of how he could have been the real ninth doctor, with 9, 10, and 11 actually being 10, 11, an 12. The reason I discarded the initially was I didn't think they'd replace the 8th doctor with a totally different actor, although I guess even that's possible.

 

[CommanderL]

if he turns out to be the real ninth doctor I will be upset the way its implied in the series is that the 8th ended the time war and thats why 9 was so angry due to all the acts he had to do

 

[octafish]

Hmmm. Repair shop? I hope that was the museum's repair shop.

Looking forward to more of John Hurt as the not-doctor (noctor?).

 

[Thaluikhain]

Interesting that you mention the Valeyard -- that was my first thought when they introduced John Hurt's character, that he was the Valeyard. From what little I know about the character, despite technically being the same person, they don't exactly get along. I mean, wasn't the Valeyard the prosecutor in Trial of a Timelord?

The second thing I thought was that he was the 12th incarnation, and that 11 knew about what he had done the same way he knew where to find his tomb. I briefly considered the time war thing, but I kind of discarded it until seeing this thread -- I hadn't thought of how he could have been the real ninth doctor, with 9, 10, and 11 actually being 10, 11, an 12. The reason I discarded the initially was I didn't think they'd replace the 8th doctor with a totally different actor, although I guess even that's possible.

Heh, I thought that as well. Unless Smith is the last, there should be extra doctors they don't know after him in there, but they didn't see any.