Doctor Who Series 7.13 - The Name of the Doctor (Spoilers, Obviously)

[Johnlives]

It's definately time to bring back two part episodes. Everything just feels to rushed.

As for John Hurt, my money's on a Time War Docotor as well, between McGann and Eccleston (although why they couldn't of used McGann, he's not in bad shape?). They gave a hint in the last episode, when refering to the Doc removing himselft from history - you can be discovered by the gap you've left. Well the only gap I'm aware of is the McGann/Eccleston one. Also, I can't recall if McGann appeared in any of the Clara wondering through time bits?

But what crime could he of committed that he would blank out an chunk of his existence. The Doctor has admitted killing all his people, we've seen him commit multiple genocides and break the laws of time.

 

[Thaluikhain]

But what crime could he of committed that he would blank out an chunk of his existence. The Doctor has admitted killing all his people, we've seen him commit multiple genocides and break the laws of time.

I was guessing at how he killed his people the first time. But yeah, no reason to assume it's that.

Also, a not young bloke playing the doctor.

 

[FinalDream]

I thought this episode was great, I loved seeing the old doctors, especially the first stealing the tardis with his granddaughter. The resolution of Clara was refreshingly simple, Strax was great, as always!

Edit: I'll also be fascinated to find out if the series is going to contradict the loosely, cannon(ish), highly divisive book 'Lungbarrow':

Spoiler: Book Spoiler

The Other was a legendary figure in Time Lord history. Some sources suggest more powerful than Omega and Rassilon. The implication was that the Other had been genetically reincarnated as the Doctor

Which in all honesty I hope they do. I never did like it too much.

 

[Mr. Q]

Hell of a cliffhanger to leave us on. I loved it and seeing John Hurt as another Doctor was a shocker to me. Not too sure if he's the 9th one. He could be the much later version after the 11th but that's just my theory.

The only downside is we've gotta wait until November for our latest Doctor Who fix. o_o

 

[Zhadramekel]

I genuinely think this is my favourite season finale of the revived series. They were pretty clever with the episode and most of the mysteries got wrapped up nicely. Me and my boyfriend were laughing out loud at some of the jokes and I was close to tearing up by the end. John Hurt being the time war Doctor and coming in between Paul McGann and Christopher Eccleston is a popular theory, even on Gallifrey Base, plus when you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.

I have a crazy theory about the Whisper Men which I'm almost positive will not be true, but I might as well say what it is anyway: the whisper men obviously have some visual similarities to the silence, with their suits and white skin. Now, here's the actual theory. The noticeable facial feature of the silence was their eyes - see no evil. The noticeable feature of the whisper men was their mouths - speak no evil. Will there be an incarnation of hear no evil?

Somehow Eccleston's voice is the only one I can pick out when they jumble up the past doctor quotes (as in Journey to the Center of the TARDIS). I liked how every single doctor (or stand-ins) appeared at least once during the episode, although Paul McGann and David Tennant are pretty difficult to pick out, but I've seen proof that they do appear.

 

[spartandude]

Also Matt Smith has confirmed he will be staying for series 8

Really? Dont get me wrong i love matt smith (favorite Doctor BTW) but i would love to see John Hurt take on the role, hes such a good actor

well actually what i would like is to see someone take over from Moffat, i mean hes good at individual episodes every now and then but christ when he tries to write a series hes terrible

tbh i was half expecting the glowing light to have a ghost kid walk out of it and say he was the catalyst

 

[Thaluikhain]

One thing that grated was the William Hartnell bit, in that it was completely not William Hartnelly. It would have been nice for those scenes to in any way reflect old Who, but they'd gone for a very modern style. The look of the place, and the way the people spoke was completely different to anything you'd ever seen William Hartnell in (except his voice, of course).

Same thing they got wrong with Timecrash. They brought Peter Davison back, they just didn't bring back the fifth doctor. I had just watched a few fifth doctor stories just before Timecrash, the difference is really jarring.

Now, of course, there's only so much you can do, Hartnell never even mentioned Gallifrey or the Time Lords, but they could have at least tried. In the asylum of the daleks, there was some slightly older style daleks (should have had the originals, though) and they had the old Tom Baker era dalek alarms.

 

[klown]

if he turns out to be the real ninth doctor I will be upset the way its implied in the series is that the 8th ended the time war and thats why 9 was so angry due to all the acts he had to do

That hasn't really changed though in this theory. it would just mean 9 ended the time war, and the now 10 (Eccelsten) is so angry because of what he had to do, but over time disenvows himself from himself.

 

[MrCollins]

Am I mistaken in the belief that the Doctor can only reincarnate 12 times? If so, we will soon run out of doctors.

 

[FinalDream]

Am I mistaken in the belief that the Doctor can only reincarnate 12 times? If so, we will soon run out of doctors.

This is a very common mistake. The earlier series have shown that Timelords can go beyond their limit. In the 'Five Doctors' the Timelords offer to reset the Masters regeneration limit if he enters the dead zone to help the Doctor, then we learn that Rassilon found the secret to unlimited regenerations.

 

[Berithil]

snip

snip

My first thought was that he was the Valeyard, but Moffat has said that John Hurt is playing the REAL 9th Doctor, and the Valeyard is the Doctor V.12.5. Like I said, I'm kinda miffed with him messing with the continuity, but I am interested to see what he has planned. He's set it up in a way that will explain why we haven't heard about this particular "Doctor".

Am I mistaken in the belief that the Doctor can only reincarnate 12 times? If so, we will soon run out of doctors.

It's been hinted and suggested that during the Time War, the Time Lords were given unlimited regenerations, or at least reset their "counter". I don't think we're nearing the end.

 

[Albino Boo]

Am I mistaken in the belief that the Doctor can only reincarnate 12 times? If so, we will soon run out of doctors.

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single Timelord is in possession of 12 regenerations and must be in want of wife. See what I did there Mr Collins? Timelords have 12 regenerations, unless something happens to give them more

 

[Canadamus Prime]

It was a very good episode, but I'm not pleased about the whole John Hurt thing. I hate retcons.

EDIT: I am pleased, however, that they didn't actually reveal his name because I think that's one thing that should never be revealed for the sake of maintaining the mystique of it all.

 

[Berithil]

Yeah, site down, I went to bed. So sue me

Excellent episode. It's always good to see the Doctor forced to confront his own past and future.
Loved the use of the old Doctors at the start and how they explained Clara and how she is the impossible girl. It was a bit of a waste to see a long running villain killed off so quickly, but I suppose he did try and rewrite the history of the universe so there's that.

Also Valeyard reference! I hope we see some more Valeyard stuff in the future.
On that note... John Hurt as the Doctor? Rumour is he is the Time War Doctor.
See this article for some minor spoilers about him and the 50th Anniversary show in Novemeber

http://www.tv3.ie/entertainment_article.php?locID=1.803.813&article=103035

Also Matt Smith has confirmed he will be staying for series 8

Yeah, I didn't get the thread up til 10PM my time. You are forgiven.

Seeing that it's been revealed that John Hurt is playing the REAL 9th Doctor, it is very likely that he is the Time War Doctor. The fact that the 11th (12th?) is loathe to talk about him lends credence to that.

And if Matt Smith is the 12th Doctor, I'm sure we'll be seeing some Valeyard stuff soon...

It was a very good episode, but I'm not pleased about the whole John Hurt thing. I hate retcons.

EDIT: I am pleased, however, that they didn't actually reveal his name because I think that's one thing that should never be revealed for the sake of maintaining the mystique of it all.

I wasn't too pleased with it either, but I found this article on the Tardis Blue homepage, that might put the whole thing into a better light.

Spoiler

So here's what was going on at the end of 'The Name Of The Doctor', for the confused.



There are several things we've known since Doctor Who made its triumphant return in 2005. We know that the Ninth Doctor is traumatised, haunted by what he did to end the Time War. He caused the catastrophe that wiped out Time Lords and Daleks alike:

'They all burned...I saw it happen. I made it happen.'

We also know that Rose was a big part of helping him rediscover his better nature and believe in himself again.

The events of the Time War have never been shown on screen. They've only ever been referred to in grandiose terms that suggest they CANNOT be shown, because they're too mind-wrangling: Davros flying into the jaws of the Nightmare Child, the Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-Weres, and so on.

Now, given that the Christopher Eccleston Doctor seems to be freshly regenerated at the start of 'Rose', fans have tended to assume that he looked like Paul McGann, the Eighth Doctor, while he was committing the terrible deed of wiping out his people and the Daleks all at once. It's a natural assumption.

But we've never seen the McGann Doctor regenerate into the Eccleston Doctor. And that's the gap into which the John Hurt character fits. This is the Doctor's secret; while he was massacring the Daleks and his own people, he had John Hurt's face. And for all that he justifies his deeds - 'What I did, I did without choice, in the name of peace and sanity' - he is still anathema, the skeleton in the Doctor's closet. He is the black sheep in a family of one.

So is John Hurt playing the 'real' Ninth Doctor? No. He's playing the ninth incarnation of the Time Lord known as the Doctor, but he doesn't get to call himself the Doctor, because his actions make him unworthy of that title in the eyes of his other incarnations.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Doctor's real name is Ernie Witherspoon, which it isn't, but it'll do. Ernie Witherspoon runs away from Gallifrey in a stolen TARDIS. He adopts 'The Doctor' as his assumed identity; it's a mission statement, an ideal to live up to, 'a promise that you make'. All of Ernie Witherspoon's incarnations except one have lived up to that mission statement. John Hurt is still Ernie Witherspoon, but he's no Doctor.

The source of the confusion is the rather silly title that popped up. 'Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor'. This is the BBC confirming that yes, the John Hurt incarnation is playing the same character as Matt Smith and David Tennant and so on. But he's not The Doctor, because he has no right to call himself that. Not after what he did.

So how do we know John Hurt is playing the incarnation between McGann and Eccleston? Well, because it's been leaked, for one thing. But we also know because Clara found a huge book on the History of the Time War. Now, the Time War only has one survivor, so the book - if it's a complete history - can only have one possible author.

Clara finds a reference to Ernie Witherspoon in the book. The only reason the Doctor would use his real name instead of his proud title of Doctor is if he was talking about the version of himself who defaulted to being Ernie Witherspoon because he had no right to use the title. In other words, the version played by John Hurt.

It's a very clever twist for Moffat to throw in, because it doesn't actually retcon anything. We've always known that the Doctor is ashamed of what he did during the Time War. But we haven't known that all those shameful actions were committed by a hitherto unseen incarnation.

And from a certain point of view, it makes Eccleston's Doctor all the more profound. Because he wasn't just recovering from the Time War, he was deciding to be the Doctor again. The Eccleston incarnation was a chance to resume that title and the moral stance that goes with it, and you can clearly see in episodes like 'Dalek' how horrified he might be that he can't live up to it.

In the end, Eccleston's Doctor proves himself worthy of the title. Faced with the terrible dilemma of wiping out the Daleks and the population of Earth along with them, or taking no action, he chooses to do nothing:

'WHAT ARE YOU, DOCTOR? COWARD OR KILLER?'
'Coward, any day.'

Hurt would have chosen the path of the killer. And that's why the other incarnations deny him the 'Doctor' identity.

And, yes. I was glad that they didn't actually reveal the Doctor's name. That could've been a potentially show-killing move

 

[Canadamus Prime]

It was a very good episode, but I'm not pleased about the whole John Hurt thing. I hate retcons.

EDIT: I am pleased, however, that they didn't actually reveal his name because I think that's one thing that should never be revealed for the sake of maintaining the mystique of it all.

I wasn't too pleased with it either, but I found this article on the Tardis Blue homepage, that might put the whole thing into a better light.

Spoiler

So here's what was going on at the end of 'The Name Of The Doctor', for the confused.



There are several things we've known since Doctor Who made its triumphant return in 2005. We know that the Ninth Doctor is traumatised, haunted by what he did to end the Time War. He caused the catastrophe that wiped out Time Lords and Daleks alike:

'They all burned...I saw it happen. I made it happen.'

We also know that Rose was a big part of helping him rediscover his better nature and believe in himself again.

The events of the Time War have never been shown on screen. They've only ever been referred to in grandiose terms that suggest they CANNOT be shown, because they're too mind-wrangling: Davros flying into the jaws of the Nightmare Child, the Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-Weres, and so on.

Now, given that the Christopher Eccleston Doctor seems to be freshly regenerated at the start of 'Rose', fans have tended to assume that he looked like Paul McGann, the Eighth Doctor, while he was committing the terrible deed of wiping out his people and the Daleks all at once. It's a natural assumption.

But we've never seen the McGann Doctor regenerate into the Eccleston Doctor. And that's the gap into which the John Hurt character fits. This is the Doctor's secret; while he was massacring the Daleks and his own people, he had John Hurt's face. And for all that he justifies his deeds - 'What I did, I did without choice, in the name of peace and sanity' - he is still anathema, the skeleton in the Doctor's closet. He is the black sheep in a family of one.

So is John Hurt playing the 'real' Ninth Doctor? No. He's playing the ninth incarnation of the Time Lord known as the Doctor, but he doesn't get to call himself the Doctor, because his actions make him unworthy of that title in the eyes of his other incarnations.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Doctor's real name is Ernie Witherspoon, which it isn't, but it'll do. Ernie Witherspoon runs away from Gallifrey in a stolen TARDIS. He adopts 'The Doctor' as his assumed identity; it's a mission statement, an ideal to live up to, 'a promise that you make'. All of Ernie Witherspoon's incarnations except one have lived up to that mission statement. John Hurt is still Ernie Witherspoon, but he's no Doctor.

The source of the confusion is the rather silly title that popped up. 'Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor'. This is the BBC confirming that yes, the John Hurt incarnation is playing the same character as Matt Smith and David Tennant and so on. But he's not The Doctor, because he has no right to call himself that. Not after what he did.

So how do we know John Hurt is playing the incarnation between McGann and Eccleston? Well, because it's been leaked, for one thing. But we also know because Clara found a huge book on the History of the Time War. Now, the Time War only has one survivor, so the book - if it's a complete history - can only have one possible author.

Clara finds a reference to Ernie Witherspoon in the book. The only reason the Doctor would use his real name instead of his proud title of Doctor is if he was talking about the version of himself who defaulted to being Ernie Witherspoon because he had no right to use the title. In other words, the version played by John Hurt.

It's a very clever twist for Moffat to throw in, because it doesn't actually retcon anything. We've always known that the Doctor is ashamed of what he did during the Time War. But we haven't known that all those shameful actions were committed by a hitherto unseen incarnation.

And from a certain point of view, it makes Eccleston's Doctor all the more profound. Because he wasn't just recovering from the Time War, he was deciding to be the Doctor again. The Eccleston incarnation was a chance to resume that title and the moral stance that goes with it, and you can clearly see in episodes like 'Dalek' how horrified he might be that he can't live up to it.

In the end, Eccleston's Doctor proves himself worthy of the title. Faced with the terrible dilemma of wiping out the Daleks and the population of Earth along with them, or taking no action, he chooses to do nothing:

'WHAT ARE YOU, DOCTOR? COWARD OR KILLER?'
'Coward, any day.'

Hurt would have chosen the path of the killer. And that's why the other incarnations deny him the 'Doctor' identity.

And, yes. I was glad that they didn't actually reveal the Doctor's name. That could've been a potentially show-killing move

Ok, well if that's the case I suppose I can live with that. I still don't like the idea of introducing an incarnation in the middle though. Of course if he's refused the title of 'Doctor' how are they going avoid revealing his name at the 50th anniversary, assuming they're still going to.

 

[Berithil]

Ok, well if that's the case I suppose I can live with that. I still don't like the idea of introducing an incarnation in the middle though. Of course if he's refused the title of 'Doctor' how are they going avoid revealing his name at the 50th anniversary, assuming they're still going to.

It's an interesting theory, one that they might use to explain the absence of this "Doctor", but at the end of the episode, they did do the whole "Introducing John Hurt as the Doctor" thing.

According to that article TimeLord posted, it looks like 10 and ll (11 and 12) will reluctantly accept that he is "The Doctor".

Of course, this is mostly speculation at this point

 

[elvor0]

Ok, well if that's the case I suppose I can live with that. I still don't like the idea of introducing an incarnation in the middle though. Of course if he's refused the title of 'Doctor' how are they going avoid revealing his name at the 50th anniversary, assuming they're still going to.

It's an interesting theory, one that they might use to explain the absence of this "Doctor", but at the end of the episode, they did do the whole "Introducing John Hurt as the Doctor" thing.

According to that article TimeLord posted, it looks like 10 and ll (11 and 12) will reluctantly accept that he is "The Doctor".

Of course, this is mostly speculation at this point

I think, and going with the snipped quotations you're continuing from, the "Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor" might just be there for people who are more "casual" viewers, people who watch and enjoy the show, but don't have the geek levels of attention to detail that a lot of us here do. We can all sit here and remember plot points and check the tardis wiki, put in links to the old series etc. but your general audience doesn't follow it /that/ closely.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Ok, well if that's the case I suppose I can live with that. I still don't like the idea of introducing an incarnation in the middle though. Of course if he's refused the title of 'Doctor' how are they going avoid revealing his name at the 50th anniversary, assuming they're still going to.

It's an interesting theory, one that they might use to explain the absence of this "Doctor", but at the end of the episode, they did do the whole "Introducing John Hurt as the Doctor" thing.

According to that article TimeLord posted, it looks like 10 and ll (11 and 12) will reluctantly accept that he is "The Doctor".

Of course, this is mostly speculation at this point

If we go by Doctor's (Matt Smitth) words at the end of the episode "He's me, but he's not The Doctor." Presumably then they know he's them, but deny him the right to call himself "The Doctor" which begs to question if John Hurt's incarnation feels he has the right to call himself "The Doctor."

 

[Encurtidos]

I don't understand how he is 'the doctor' but not? Could someone please explain?

 

[Little Woodsman]

Am I mistaken in the belief that the Doctor can only reincarnate 12 times? If so, we will soon run out of doctors.

This is a very common mistake. The earlier series have shown that Timelords can go beyond their limit. In the 'Five Doctors' the Timelords offer to reset the Masters regeneration limit if he enters the dead zone to help the Doctor, then we learn that Rassilon found the secret to unlimited regenerations.

Well put. Additionally in the Tom Baker story 'Underworld'

Spoiler: spoilers for Underworld

The Time Lords at one point gave another race the technology for a 'regeneration bed' with unlimited uses.

Also in the TB era story 'Brain of Morbius'

Spoiler: spoilers for Brain of Morbius

The Doctor makes a speech to the leader of the Sisterhood of Karn that basically boils down to
'Eternal life without change is a trap it is nothing but stagnation'

And in 'The Five Doctors'

Spoiler: Spoilers Dear

Rassilon himself considered eternal life to be a curse.

So yes, the standard (presumably set by Rassilon) for Time Lords is a very long life, and that to live the full length
of that life a Time Lord will be forced to change her/himself drastically 12 times. But that's not universal--the Time Lords have the ability to change that...it's just generally accepted that keeping to that standard is best.