Doctor Who Series 7.13 - The Name of the Doctor (Spoilers, Obviously)

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TimeLord said:
Also Valeyard reference! I hope we see some more Valeyard stuff in the future.
I've been wondering about this. Is Valeyard actually a reference to something from OldWho? I thought this was the first time it appeared.

OT:
I loved every second of. I loved the villains. I loved Team Vastra. I loved how they explained Clara. I loved the giant TARDIS.

I also shit bricks when John Hurt turned around. I even knew he was going to be a new Doctor and it still made me squee.

And now we're getting the Hurt Doctor AND Tennant? Novemeber cannot come soon enough.
 

Berithil

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Sir Thomas Sean Connery said:
TimeLord said:
Also Valeyard reference! I hope we see some more Valeyard stuff in the future.
I've been wondering about this. Is Valeyard actually a reference to something from OldWho? I thought this was the first time it appeared.
Yeah, it's from one of Tom Baker's stories, I believe (I'm not an expert on Old Who, so someone feel free to correct me). It's an evil version of the Doctor between the 12th and final incarnations of him. The Valeyard is supposedly a personified collection of all the darkness within the Doctor.
 

Dryk

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Kalezian said:
Obviously if John is the 12th, then 11 wouldn't of recognized him, so he has to be a prior reincarnation, plus the whole talk about what he did was for the greater good and all that points to the end of the time war. 11 saying it is his greatest kept secret also adds some water to the argument.
But he's open about the double genocide that ended the war. So whatever it was that this incarnation did to get disavowed was WORSE.
 

Thaluikhain

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albino boo said:
Err I don't what show you have been watching but in the 30 odd years that I have, its never had internal consistency. If you want that go watch another show, you are not going to get that on Dr Who. There are over 675 hours of TV of which there are about 20 hours missing and quite a few of the early writers are dead. Just how are you going to get internal consistency under those circumstances? Just because RTD did something like that for 4 series does not mean the other 26 seasons are like that. I would suggest that using the same methodology that caused the show to last for 26 years might be a better idea than copying the way it was done for 4 years.
Internal consistency would probably mean for each individual story, not for the show as a whole, in context.

Contradict something decades ago, fine, last series not so much, same story...no.

(Anyone else annoyed with what they did to the Tardis? In "Let's kill Hitler", the Dr has a face to face conversation with it, sorta ruining a previous episode. Supposedly the Tardis can do that whenever, so why doesn't this happen all the time?)
 

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It was a good episode, but at the end of it my only reaction was "What the fuck just happened?"
 

Thaluikhain

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Berithil said:
Sir Thomas Sean Connery said:
TimeLord said:
Also Valeyard reference! I hope we see some more Valeyard stuff in the future.
I've been wondering about this. Is Valeyard actually a reference to something from OldWho? I thought this was the first time it appeared.
Yeah, it's from one of Tom Baker's stories, I believe (I'm not an expert on Old Who, so someone feel free to correct me). It's an evil version of the Doctor between the 12th and final incarnations of him. The Valeyard is supposedly a personified collection of all the darkness within the Doctor.
A Colin Baker story, actually, "Trial of a Time Lord". Of course, if he's from beyond Eccleston, he knows the Time Lords all died, and in his story he was on a Time Lord ship, so...
 

elvor0

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Lilani said:
-snip-

I'm confused because I was sort of expecting that Derillium situation was going to be mentioned at some point, or at least hinted at. It's clear they haven't forgotten what was said in that episode because they referred directly to what transpired in it in this episode. And technically, the Doctor didn't say goodbye to the real River, only the virtual one. So it's possible the real River is still running around somewhere, and the Doctor might still take her to Derillium. Because even though that's the last time the Doctor will see virtual River, it's not the last time he sees that River. So...yeah. A bit confused about that.
It did actually happen, they just only aired it in webisodes or on DVDs, it's called First Night/Last Night, check the wiki, there's four episodes but I can't remember what they're called. In that they do actually show River having her last night with the Doctor(Smith, sort of, they're all set inside the TARDIS), a little before she meets Tennent in the Library from her point of view.
 

Little Woodsman

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thaluikhain said:
Little Woodsman said:
So yes, the standard (presumably set by Rassilon) for Time Lords is a very long life, and that to live the full length
of that life a Time Lord will be forced to change her/himself drastically 12 times. But that's not universal--the Time Lords have the ability to change that...it's just generally accepted that keeping to that standard is best.
Er, hey? Surely they live until something kills them, in which case they get a set number of re-tries, unless someone resets it for them?
No, actually their individual bodies can just plain die of old age as well. That's what caused the first incarnation of the Doctor to regenerate.
 

Thaluikhain

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Little Woodsman said:
No, actually their individual bodies can just plain die of old age as well. That's what caused the first incarnation of the Doctor to regenerate.
Well, he had been captured by Cybermen and all, which wouldn't be fun even if they didn't actually go out of their way to harm him.
 

Little Woodsman

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Berithil said:
Encurtidos said:
I don't understand how he is 'the doctor' but not? Could someone please explain?
I guess it depends on whether he is worthy of the title. "The Doctor" isn't his name; it's a title. A title he took for himself. If John Hurt's incarnation of the time lord did things that warranted him being stripped of that title, even if he stripped himself of it, it would make sense.

He's that certain time lord, he just doesn't get to be called "The Doctor: The Man Who Makes People Better"

Hmmm, wasn't there a similar train of thought in "The Beast Below"? He told Amy something like he'd have to find something new to call himself because he wouldn't be the Doctor anymore?
 

Sonic Doctor

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nathan-dts said:
This was the best series finale that the show has ever done; it made complete sense and we get a tease as to how the Time War ended and how horrific it was. Doctor Who lore just got given a shot of steroids which seems to have been Moffat's aim with the series and his time as head,in general; from The Great Intelligence to the Ice warriors to homoreptilia.

The second half of the series has been perfect. The show was fading into irrelevance whilst they were stuck with the convoluted Pond mess. They've turned it around.
My thoughts exactly. I consider the Pond era to be the dark times of the show. Because before that I, thought nothing could get me to stop watching the show. I got in on it years ago when the show was on mid-Tennant, and went back and watched all I could, Eccleston to current Tennant and went back and watched all I could find on the old series, buying what I could of the old series on Amazon.

I loved it all, then Pond happened. At first it wasn't all that bad, it was a little odd, but it worked....until the two part finale of the fifth series, when they decided to make Pond more of a main character than The Doctor, starting with her wishing The Doctor back into existence being the most stupid and impossible saving of The Doctor's life ever. From then until the end of the first half of series 7, the Ponds were the main characters and The Doctor was relegated to a side character, just pay attention to screen time, Smith has far less time in front of the camera during that time.

Because of the Ponds, I stopped watching the show a couple episodes before the series 7 mid series finale. I jumped for joy when they basically wrote the Ponds into a death corner. I'm so happy about that, I'll probably punch some random person nearest to me if they try to bring them back onto the show somehow.

When I finally started watching the episodes post Ponds, it all made sense again. We had The Doctor as the main character, he gets the most screen time, and while we had the Clara story arch, it didn't overshadow The Doctor.

Quaxar said:
Apart from that the episode was good. Solid end to this overall weak season. The Clara mystery seemed a bit anticlimatic though after all the brilliant fan theories.
At least the Clara mystery ending makes sense, unlike the ending of series 5(wish magic form and ordinary girl with no powers) and mid-series 6(That River Song is a time baby of/from Rory and Amy doing it in the TARDIS, which totally killed the River Song story arch for me and made me have absolutely no interest in her character. It would have made much more sense if she had been a Time Lady from his past when the Time Lords were still around, then that would have meant that the episodes that followed would have been Doctor centric to figure out how said Time Lady was still around, instead of all the silliness and play on how River is the Ponds baby).

The series 6 finale wasn't that good either, I would consider it meh/bland, considering that I would have to watch it again to get the full scope of it, because only the outline of it sticks in my mind but not the filling, unlike the Eccleston and all the Tennant finales, which I can practically remember each minute visually in my mind.

Plus, this series 7 finale ties in all the other Doctors so well, granted some of the special effect points that they used to include Clara and the GI into The Doctor's past were a bit borked, but anything that gets the old series more face time so that people know properly that it exists is awesome in my book. Seriously, it is amazing how many people I've encountered over the years that didn't know there was actual Doctor Who episodes before Eccleston.
 

Thaluikhain

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Wait. Is it just me, or does having the gay homo reptilia sound like Moffat heard/made a crap puerile joke?
 

Little Woodsman

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thaluikhain said:
Little Woodsman said:
No, actually their individual bodies can just plain die of old age as well. That's what caused the first incarnation of the Doctor to regenerate.
Well, he had been captured by Cybermen and all, which wouldn't be fun even if they didn't actually go out of their way to harm him.
Well I just spent an inordinate amount of time looking for my copy of the novelization of Tenth Planet and failed to find it but...
While it's true that being the "guest" of the Cybermen can't have been fun he had shown signs of failing health (sadly mirroring William Hartnell's own failing health) through the story (I've only read the novelization and looking on Wikipedia it says that some of those details were added for the print version....hmmm....)
Even so, there's loads of evidence from stories like Invasion of Time, Deadly Assassin and The Five Doctors to indicate that their bodies do age and fail over time. Though it does seem that the length of time an individual body can last before feeling the effects of old age varies wildly...
 

Little Woodsman

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thaluikhain said:
Wait. Is it just me, or does having the gay homo reptilia sound like Moffat heard/made a crap puerile joke?
Well that got a laugh from me.....
Hadn't thought of that, but it has occasionally struck me as odd that a member of a species that is known for it's highly controlled breeding program fell in love.
Though she did fall in love with someone she couldn't possibly breed with (umm, actually I suppose I shouldn't rule it out entirely given the other things that have happened in the show...) and maybe that's permitted in their society?
 

Thaluikhain

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Little Woodsman said:
thaluikhain said:
Little Woodsman said:
No, actually their individual bodies can just plain die of old age as well. That's what caused the first incarnation of the Doctor to regenerate.
Well, he had been captured by Cybermen and all, which wouldn't be fun even if they didn't actually go out of their way to harm him.
Well I just spent an inordinate amount of time looking for my copy of the novelization of Tenth Planet and failed to find it but...
While it's true that being the "guest" of the Cybermen can't have been fun he had shown signs of failing health (sadly mirroring William Hartnell's own failing health) through the story (I've only read the novelization and looking on Wikipedia it says that some of those details were added for the print version....hmmm....)
Even so, there's loads of evidence from stories like Invasion of Time, Deadly Assassin and The Five Doctors to indicate that their bodies do age and fail over time. Though it does seem that the length of time an individual body can last before feeling the effects of old age varies wildly...
True, though you get The War Games having the Doctor say "We can live forever, barring accidents".

TBH, I'd never really thought about if they die of old age. I thought it was more the lifestyle that got Hartnell in the end, if he'd not spent every other week being chased down a tunnel he'd be fine. But can't say for sure.
 

Little Woodsman

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thaluikhain said:
Little Woodsman said:
thaluikhain said:
Little Woodsman said:
No, actually their individual bodies can just plain die of old age as well. That's what caused the first incarnation of the Doctor to regenerate.
Well, he had been captured by Cybermen and all, which wouldn't be fun even if they didn't actually go out of their way to harm him.
Well I just spent an inordinate amount of time looking for my copy of the novelization of Tenth Planet and failed to find it but...
While it's true that being the "guest" of the Cybermen can't have been fun he had shown signs of failing health (sadly mirroring William Hartnell's own failing health) through the story (I've only read the novelization and looking on Wikipedia it says that some of those details were added for the print version....hmmm....)
Even so, there's loads of evidence from stories like Invasion of Time, Deadly Assassin and The Five Doctors to indicate that their bodies do age and fail over time. Though it does seem that the length of time an individual body can last before feeling the effects of old age varies wildly...
True, though you get The War Games having the Doctor say "We can live forever, barring accidents".

TBH, I'd never really thought about if they die of old age. I thought it was more the lifestyle that got Hartnell in the end, if he'd not spent every other week being chased down a tunnel he'd be fine. But can't say for sure.
Good points (and well put...got a laugh from that last bit...).
This all actually makes me wonder if the creative team behind the show ever sat down and hashed out all of these questions, or just left interpretations up to each individual writer....hmmm.....
 

Thaluikhain

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Little Woodsman said:
This all actually makes me wonder if the creative team behind the show ever sat down and hashed out all of these questions, or just left interpretations up to each individual writer....hmmm.....
Well, teams, and almost certainly not. The Time Lord stuff came out in dribs and drabs, only really starting in The War Games, Gallifrey only mentioned in the Time Warrior, the iconic depiction in The Deadly Assassin. Quite some time between them.

And yeah, really don't try to stick the Meddling Monk in there, and best to forget about Susan.
 

TimeLord

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Berithil said:
Sir Thomas Sean Connery said:
TimeLord said:
Also Valeyard reference! I hope we see some more Valeyard stuff in the future.
I've been wondering about this. Is Valeyard actually a reference to something from OldWho? I thought this was the first time it appeared.
Yeah, it's from one of Tom Baker's stories, I believe (I'm not an expert on Old Who, so someone feel free to correct me). It's an evil version of the Doctor between the 12th and final incarnations of him. The Valeyard is supposedly a personified collection of all the darkness within the Doctor.
Sir Thomas Sean Connery said:
TimeLord said:
Also Valeyard reference! I hope we see some more Valeyard stuff in the future.
I've been wondering about this. Is Valeyard actually a reference to something from OldWho? I thought this was the first time it appeared.
The Valeyard was, according to the Master, "an amalgamation of the darker side of the Doctor's nature". In one account, the Master stated, "The Valeyard, Doctor, is your penultimate reincarnation... Somewhere between your twelfth and thirteenth regeneration."
From 'Trial of a Time Lord', a Colin Baker story
 

Little Woodsman

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thaluikhain said:
Little Woodsman said:
This all actually makes me wonder if the creative team behind the show ever sat down and hashed out all of these questions, or just left interpretations up to each individual writer....hmmm.....
Well, teams, and almost certainly not. The Time Lord stuff came out in dribs and drabs, only really starting in The War Games, Gallifrey only mentioned in the Time Warrior, the iconic depiction in The Deadly Assassin. Quite some time between them.

And yeah, really don't try to stick the Meddling Monk in there, and best to forget about Susan.
And never..*ever*...ponder the question....
If Time Lords sometimes regenerate and come out as a different sex/gender, what does Susan's husband think when he wakes up one morning next to....??????
 

Thaluikhain

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Little Woodsman said:
And never..*ever*...ponder the question....
If Time Lords sometimes regenerate and come out as a different sex/gender, what does Susan's husband think when he wakes up one morning next to....??????
They didn't up until Smith, they used to be asexual (not sure how canon that is).

Also, nowdays regeneration makes a mess of the place.

What I'd like to know is, can people ever think the Doctor is dead again? Cause apparently when he dies they will be a weird glowy time thingy. If it isn't there, it's just him faking. Also, shouldn't River have known the Doctor wasn't dead when he pretends to in "The Pandorica Opens" and "The Impossible Astronaut"?