Doctor Who Series 7, Ep 2: Dinosaurs on a Spaceship (SPOILERS)

[BehattedWanderer]

I want to jump in on the discussion of him killing, because, at least for those of us who started with 9 or 10, this is a radical redefinition of the Doctor. Yes, he's killed before, but he would always give them a chance. The 11th Doctor, however, wears violence like 10 wore his coat, and it's not a good look on him. It's even more apparent in both episodes of this new season. Yeah, you can wave off him intentionally killing Daleks (and using one to destroy all the rest in a room) as they're his mortal enemy, or whatever, but when does the Doctor kill a man who could have been saved?

He could have dragged Solomon into the other ship, and left him imprisoned or something. Is Stormcage the only prison in space, and is it only for Dr. River Song? Are there not prisons for people that kill everyone on a ship and try to sell the endangered cargo elsewhere? All the talk of the Shadow Proclamation, but you'd think there would be at least a trial of some kind.

But no, he plants the tracer on Solomon's ship, and locks Solomon in. What? What the hell is this, Die Hard? Where's the chance in that? And he's getting a lot more comfortable with it. What was the point of all the stuff with River last season saying he's getting dangerous, going too far, becoming too noisy, if he's going to continue how he was, just with a plot-convenient blank slate?

Other than that, though, really good episode. Started out rocky (just how will River react when she hears of him playing with Egyptian queens?), with what looked like more of Moffat's terrible gender politics, but that got turned around pretty quickly, so that was a plus. Mitchell and Webb as the bickering robots was a nice touch, could almost see them as a little robot couple arguing over tea. Rory's dad absolutely stole every scene he was in, and the ending was positively one of the best endings for a minor character I've ever seen in this show. It was a nice change of pace from the "everything must be about the universe in peril" that's been happening of late in the show.

 

[ThePS1Fan]

It was really good. Probably one of my favourites in recent memory. I pretty much always like the self contained episodes and this was no exception.

 

[ZeoAssassin]

Alright anyone that still pretests the way the Doctor handled Solomon....

Granted some of that is self defense but still, the Doctor is not to be fucked with....yo

The last kill by the 4rth slays me =p

 

[tomtom94]

People blaming Steven Moffat, while unsurprising, falls flat because Chris Chibnall wrote the episode.

A good episode. I consider the Doctor's killing of Solomon to be on a par with the Family of Blood and the numerous occasions in the books (some of which are considered canon) where he's allowed characters to die. The only thing he did was move the targeting system to Solomon's ship, which he did to save himself as much as anything else.

Meanwhile, Solomon was a greedy genocidal git. So fuck him.

Also, was it just me, or did Robert Webb have comparatively few lines to David Mitchell?

 

[Fudj]

I suppose with the doctor now he kind of see's it this way:

Bruce Wayne: I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you.

Maybe he is a fan of the Dark Knight?

Although OT it was a fairly good episode, I enjoyed it, I am hoping a big pay off is coming in the mid-season, i want to see what they have in store for the ponds.


OOOooooo entirely off topic but yay 200 posts! and having been on here for 4 years

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Okay, am curious.

I am unable to watch this episode (or the previous one) for some time, but I have no patience, so I've been spoiling myself silly.

So here's my question: is Oswen (sp?), the supposed New Companion, in this episode? If so, is she human? Dalek? Brain in a Jar?

I haven't seen any mention of her so far in the thread, but I did see mention of Rory.

And since the thread is labeled SPOILERS, I don't feel the need to hide last week's spoiler. If people are viewing spoilers for this episode, I have to assume they've seen the last one or don't care about spoilers (as I do not).

So please, someone spoil me! ^^

 

[Lilani]

Okay, am curious.

I am unable to watch this episode (or the previous one) for some time, but I have no patience, so I've been spoiling myself silly.

So here's my question: is Oswen (sp?), the supposed New Companion, in this episode? If so, is she human? Dalek? Brain in a Jar?

I haven't seen any mention of her so far in the thread, but I did see mention of Rory.

And since the thread is labeled SPOILERS, I don't feel the need to hide last week's spoiler. If people are viewing spoilers for this episode, I have to assume they've seen the last one or don't care about spoilers (as I do not).

So please, someone spoil me! ^^

Well, the thing about Oswen is sort of what's on everybody's minds. Some people think they may have written and shot this episode before they decided she was going to become his next companion, which means they have to retcon her back into existence. Because that's the thing--she didn't just become a Dalek, she was in the center of the Dalek Asylum planet when the other Daleks blew it to smithereens. So first things first, she would have had to have found a way to survive that. So it's either full-out retcon, or they did plan it that way all along and they'll reveal how she made it out in another episode soon (I think the Ponds are supposed to leave the show by the Christmas special, so at the very latest she'll be back in spring for the second half of the series).

So yes, she will be back, but until we know how they bring her back there is still a question as to whether or not Oswen will be 100% human, or if she'll have a bit of Dalek baggage. As far as we can tell she will be 100% human on the outside, but depending on how they handle her transformation back into a human, she might still have some of that Dalek stuff in her head. Because I don't know how much you know about the episode, but that's what happened to her--she was a human, the ship she was on crashed on what basically amounts to a prison planet for the broken and malfunctioning Daleks that get created, and she was transformed into a Dalek via the planet's security system (and because the Daleks wanted to use her genius).

And, I'm not sure if you knew this, but Doctor Who is available through iTunes, and you can either buy the episodes individually or pay for the whole series in advance and just download them as they come out. The episodes tend to become available to download with 12-24 hours of their television release on BBC America (or whatever channel they broadcast on in the country you're from), and if you buy them in standard definition rather than HD it will be a bit cheaper for you.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

**snip**

Ah! Thanks!

Damn, I was hoping for the Doctor to have a perky female Dalek companion already. It seems I must wait.

As to iTunes - I buy my Doctor Who on DVD. Which, sadly, means waiting until the end of the season. I love the show, but I'm not buying it twice.

 

[telocaster]

Maybe this is just me but was anyone else psyched that the actors that played Arthur Weasley and Filch in Harry Potter were in this episode?

Anyway I enjoyed it. Yes it was silly but it reminded me of some of the old David Tennant episodes.

My favorite part was:
Rory's dad- What kind of man doesn't carry a towel, put it on you're Christmas list.
Rory- Dad, I'm 31, i don't have a Christmas list...
(From the far off distance) Doctor- (Shouts) I DO!!!

 

[SciMal]

I want to jump in on the discussion of him killing, because, at least for those of us who started with 9 or 10, this is a radical redefinition of the Doctor. Yes, he's killed before, but he would always give them a chance. The 11th Doctor, however, wears violence like 10 wore his coat, and it's not a good look on him. It's even more apparent in both episodes of this new season. Yeah, you can wave off him intentionally killing Daleks (and using one to destroy all the rest in a room) as they're his mortal enemy, or whatever, but when does the Doctor kill a man who could have been saved?

To this bloody day I have absolutely no clue why people continue to push the idea that the Doctor was somehow more merciful as the 9th or 10th incarnations. If you ONLY listen to what he says, yes, but look at his actions!

-Came >--< this close to wiping out the rag-tag Dalek fleet as the 9th Doctor, and HALF OF HUMANITY with them before Rose stepped in.

-Drowns newborns. DROWNS NEWBORNS. Why did he drown them? Because their mother said 'No' to an incredibly vague threat from a person who never said he was anything but human. I guess it's perfectly okay to commit genocide as long as the mother is someone who doesn't bend to your will and they don't look human.

-Committed genocide again on the Dalek fleet in the Stolen Earth. Some will say "That was the metacrisis Doctor!", but 10th explicitly says it's him before Rose made him "better."

-Euthanizes a man with an infection/genetic disorder using a moon-powered laser in "Tooth and Claw" instead of fixing it.

-Kills a Cyberman drone by forcing it to recognize what a monster it's turned into compared to its previous form. The drone literally commits suicide because of what the Doctor allowed it to feel.

-Allows an alien-caused volcanic eruption to wipe out thousands of people in Pompeii while choosing to save a select few.

-Kills Miss Hartigan in "The Next Doctor" by sucking her and the Cyber King into the Time Vortex while she was in the middle of an emotional crisis.

To me the 11th is simply less delusional. Sure, he kills people that cross some line, but thus far he hasn't committed genocide by drowning millions of newborns and then go on to scold a veteran for wanting to shoot a murderer in the face.

Sorry, but the whole argument that 10th was a pacifist hits a nerve with me.

OP: The episode was good. Not great for me, but better than I was expecting.

 

[TimeLord]

-Allows an alien-caused volcanic eruption to wipe out thousands of people in Pompeii while choosing to save a select few.

I agree with every other point you make however this cannot be blamed on the Doctor. His choices were literally, "Pompeii or the world". The Pyrovile would have taken over the earth if he hadn't stopped them and history already recorded what he did to Pompeii.

 

[SciMal]

I agree with every other point you make however this cannot be blamed on the Doctor. His choices were literally, "Pompeii or the world". The Pyrovile would have taken over the earth if he hadn't stopped them and history already recorded what he did to Pompeii.

I meant that apparently he could have saved thousands more like the few he did, but instead he let the entire city suffocate. The only reason he objected to saving the people is because it was a "fixed point" (I think, it's been a while) - but then he gave in to Donna's crying and saved the family they stayed with.

Nothing happened because the family got saved, so why not save more? Dunno.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

**snip**

Ah! Thanks!

Damn, I was hoping for the Doctor to have a perky female Dalek companion already. It seems I must wait.

Aaaaand I am now envisioning an EDIfied Dalek. Thank you so much for that image.

I was thinking the other way around - a perky female attempting to act perky while wearing a Dalek shell. I imagine lots of plunger-flailing. Also possibly the weapon arm replaced with a robot hand or a K-9 style stun-ray or something.

Although an Edi-Dalek sounds... intriguing.

 

[T'Generalissimo]

It wasn't a very good episode. It wasn't terrible and it had a lot of potentially good stuff in there but it in a lot of ways it felt like a waste of some really great ideas. Dinosaur ark is a cool idea, catalogue of the value of every object in space and time is a cool idea, Queen Nefertiti is a cool idea, but none of it really fit together in a coherent way. Honestly, the episode felt like a dumping ground for ideas they didn't know how to flesh out into their own episodes.

There were a bunch of other little things that bugged me throughout the episode, but I won't bother listing them. The only things I will say is that the ship's navigation requiring two people of similar genetics is Umbrella Corporation levels of stupid. It was so nakedly obvious that it only existed to give Rory's dad something to do. And the bad guy was super boring, he was so evil in the most transparent and uninteresting way.

Things I did like: The fact that it was the fixture and not the bulb that was broken. Rory's dad, he was a fun character. I liked that Rory was able to use his nursing skills; I had actually completely forgotten that he was supposed to be a nurse and it was nice to be reminded that he does in fact have a life outside of Amy and the Doctor.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

To this bloody day I have absolutely no clue why people continue to push the idea that the Doctor was somehow more merciful as the 9th or 10th incarnations. If you ONLY listen to what he says, yes, but look at his actions!

To me the 11th is simply less delusional. Sure, he kills people that cross some line, but thus far he hasn't committed genocide by drowning millions of newborns and then go on to scold a veteran for wanting to shoot a murderer in the face.

Sorry, but the whole argument that 10th was a pacifist hits a nerve with me.

No, he knows exactly how deadly and dangerous he is. What made them different before was that he asked them to find another solution, to stop what they were doing before he had to destroy them. He's far from a pacifist, and he is a deadly, dangerous man (soaked in the blood of a billion galaxies, and all that), but 9 and 10 weren't gleefully running about committing genocide. I'll break down some of your examples:

-Came >--< this close to wiping out the rag-tag Dalek fleet as the 9th Doctor, and HALF OF HUMANITY with them before Rose stepped in.

Didn't push the plunger, probably would have been taken before the "God of all Daleks", and could have figured something else out.

-Drowns newborns. DROWNS NEWBORNS. Why did he drown them? Because their mother said 'No' to an incredibly vague threat from a person who never said he was anything but human. I guess it's perfectly okay to commit genocide as long as the mother is someone who doesn't bend to your will and they don't look human.

I don't really have a refutation for this, but this was fresh off of the loss with Rose, and he was a bit sore, and very angry. Donna helps him realize how far he'd gone, and he realizes that he shouldn't be alone, especially with how hurt he is after what he's still dealing with. You'll notice he spends the majority of the next two seasons going out of his way to not kill things, trying to save them. Almost like he feels bad for having done this in a fit of emotion.

-Committed genocide again on the Dalek fleet in the Stolen Earth. Some will say "That was the metacrisis Doctor!", but 10th explicitly says it's him before Rose made him "better."

This is similar to both the flooding above, and the "Time Lord Victorious" from Waters of Mars--enemies and companions alike both know that the Doctor needs someone to keep him from just stomping across the galaxy, bending it to his will. What makes him unique is that he wants people to stop him. The metacrisis Doctor is still the Doctor, more or less, and had no one to stop him. The Doctor himself didn't kill them.

-Euthanizes a man with an infection/genetic disorder using a moon-powered laser in "Tooth and Claw" instead of fixing it.

Were he not being threatened, he might have looked deeper into it, tried to help the guy. Putting the Doctor in a corner with your weakness tends to not work out for you.

-Kills a Cyberman drone by forcing it to recognize what a monster it's turned into compared to its previous form. The drone literally commits suicide because of what the Doctor allowed it to feel.

Cybermen are like the Daleks, though. The Doctor will fight them preemptively, because he knows what will happen, and he's seen it too many times to know that it's not good. He feels sympathy for the person inside, but no remorse for stopping the Cyberman without.

-Allows an alien-caused volcanic eruption to wipe out thousands of people in Pompeii while choosing to save a select few.

That was a fixed point in history, and look how it weighed on him that it was by his hand that it happened.

-Kills Miss Hartigan in "The Next Doctor" by sucking her and the Cyber King into the Time Vortex while she was in the middle of an emotional crisis.

Can't have a cyberking running around destroying London, and he gave her several chances to try and stop.

11 isn't giving chances, he's just executing them. He bears no remorse, less sympathy, and he's acting selfishly and emotionally. He's taking everything into his hands, and when he's done this before (drowning newborns, Time Lord victorious), he very quickly realized he'd gone too far. Now, he's embracing it, and taking hold of the rage and the fury, and he almost wants it.

 

[SciMal]

-Came >--< this close to wiping out the rag-tag Dalek fleet as the 9th Doctor, and HALF OF HUMANITY with them before Rose stepped in.

Didn't push the plunger, probably would have been taken before the "God of all Daleks", and could have figured something else out.

I'm not sure about 'could have figured something else out,' but he does get credit for not pushing the plunger.

-Drowns newborns. DROWNS NEWBORNS. Why did he drown them? Because their mother said 'No' to an incredibly vague threat from a person who never said he was anything but human. I guess it's perfectly okay to commit genocide as long as the mother is someone who doesn't bend to your will and they don't look human.

I don't really have a refutation for this, but this was fresh off of the loss with Rose, and he was a bit sore, and very angry. Donna helps him realize how far he'd gone, and he realizes that he shouldn't be alone, especially with how hurt he is after what he's still dealing with. You'll notice he spends the majority of the next two seasons going out of his way to not kill things, trying to save them. Almost like he feels bad for having done this in a fit of emotion.

Like you said, you don't have a refutation for that act. There's no excuse for that act, and it doesn't matter what that he tries to obtain penance for his sins - he still drowned a race to extinction.

I'm not arguing it doesn't add some depth or emotional backing to his character (it did at the time, sure), but 10th as a pacifist? This one example should be enough to shatter that claim.

-Committed genocide again on the Dalek fleet in the Stolen Earth. Some will say "That was the metacrisis Doctor!", but 10th explicitly says it's him before Rose made him "better."

This is similar to both the flooding above, and the "Time Lord Victorious" from Waters of Mars--enemies and companions alike both know that the Doctor needs someone to keep him from just stomping across the galaxy, bending it to his will. What makes him unique is that he wants people to stop him. The metacrisis Doctor is still the Doctor, more or less, and had no one to stop him. The Doctor himself didn't kill them.

That still doesn't make the Doctor a pacifist who abhors weapons or killing his enemies. That he requires someone to prevent him from going apeshit across the Universe is a perfect argument against The Doctor as a pacifist.

-Euthanizes a man with an infection/genetic disorder using a moon-powered laser in "Tooth and Claw" instead of fixing it.

Were he not being threatened, he might have looked deeper into it, tried to help the guy. Putting the Doctor in a corner with your weakness tends to not work out for you.

That's a weak excuse. 10th and 11th have pulled off far more ludicrous plans, and 10th knew what he was dealing with midway through the episode.

-Kills a Cyberman drone by forcing it to recognize what a monster it's turned into compared to its previous form. The drone literally commits suicide because of what the Doctor allowed it to feel.

Cybermen are like the Daleks, though. The Doctor will fight them preemptively, because he knows what will happen, and he's seen it too many times to know that it's not good. He feels sympathy for the person inside, but no remorse for stopping the Cyberman without.

So, because he felt sympathy for the remains of the person inside, he forced that person to commit suicide via horror at their own existence?

I don't mind that the Doctor fights Cybermen or kills them, but that was a particularly wretched way to treat something you sympathize with.

-Allows an alien-caused volcanic eruption to wipe out thousands of people in Pompeii while choosing to save a select few.

That was a fixed point in history, and look how it weighed on him that it was by his hand that it happened.

Apparently so fixed he was able to bring a family out of the danger zone and have no repercussions at all.

Again, I don't care how things affect him emotionally for this argument. The Doctor is not a pacifist. He does not avoid killing or avoid letting beings die that he might have been able to help. He kills and "fails to help" often.

-Kills Miss Hartigan in "The Next Doctor" by sucking her and the Cyber King into the Time Vortex while she was in the middle of an emotional crisis.

Can't have a cyberking running around destroying London, and he gave her several chances to try and stop.

He didn't remove her once she was able to express emotion again, didn't send them to another time period or another planet, and he didn't go back in time to prevent her from controlling the Cyber King. He sent them straight into the vortex where they'd be ripped to shreds.

11 isn't giving chances, he's just executing them.

Just because someone issues a warning doesn't mean it suddenly erases their actions or makes them a pacifist, though. It might have eased 10's conscience and allowed him to get to sleep at night, but in the end 10 still committed genocide and murder.

He bears no remorse, less sympathy, and he's acting selfishly and emotionally. He's taking everything into his hands, and when he's done this before (drowning newborns, Time Lord victorious), he very quickly realized he'd gone too far. Now, he's embracing it, and taking hold of the rage and the fury, and he almost wants it.

Which is why I find 11th so much more interesting than 10 (at least near the end of Tennant's tenure).

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Spoiler: snip

-Came >--< this close to wiping out the rag-tag Dalek fleet as the 9th Doctor, and HALF OF HUMANITY with them before Rose stepped in.

Didn't push the plunger, probably would have been taken before the "God of all Daleks", and could have figured something else out.

I'm not sure about 'could have figured something else out,' but he does get credit for not pushing the plunger.

-Drowns newborns. DROWNS NEWBORNS. Why did he drown them? Because their mother said 'No' to an incredibly vague threat from a person who never said he was anything but human. I guess it's perfectly okay to commit genocide as long as the mother is someone who doesn't bend to your will and they don't look human.

I don't really have a refutation for this, but this was fresh off of the loss with Rose, and he was a bit sore, and very angry. Donna helps him realize how far he'd gone, and he realizes that he shouldn't be alone, especially with how hurt he is after what he's still dealing with. You'll notice he spends the majority of the next two seasons going out of his way to not kill things, trying to save them. Almost like he feels bad for having done this in a fit of emotion.

Like you said, you don't have a refutation for that act. There's no excuse for that act, and it doesn't matter what that he tries to obtain penance for his sins - he still drowned a race to extinction.

I'm not arguing it doesn't add some depth or emotional backing to his character (it did at the time, sure), but 10th as a pacifist? This one example should be enough to shatter that claim.

-Committed genocide again on the Dalek fleet in the Stolen Earth. Some will say "That was the metacrisis Doctor!", but 10th explicitly says it's him before Rose made him "better."

This is similar to both the flooding above, and the "Time Lord Victorious" from Waters of Mars--enemies and companions alike both know that the Doctor needs someone to keep him from just stomping across the galaxy, bending it to his will. What makes him unique is that he wants people to stop him. The metacrisis Doctor is still the Doctor, more or less, and had no one to stop him. The Doctor himself didn't kill them.

That still doesn't make the Doctor a pacifist who abhors weapons or killing his enemies. That he requires someone to prevent him from going apeshit across the Universe is a perfect argument against The Doctor as a pacifist.

-Euthanizes a man with an infection/genetic disorder using a moon-powered laser in "Tooth and Claw" instead of fixing it.

Were he not being threatened, he might have looked deeper into it, tried to help the guy. Putting the Doctor in a corner with your weakness tends to not work out for you.

That's a weak excuse. 10th and 11th have pulled off far more ludicrous plans, and 10th knew what he was dealing with midway through the episode.

-Kills a Cyberman drone by forcing it to recognize what a monster it's turned into compared to its previous form. The drone literally commits suicide because of what the Doctor allowed it to feel.

Cybermen are like the Daleks, though. The Doctor will fight them preemptively, because he knows what will happen, and he's seen it too many times to know that it's not good. He feels sympathy for the person inside, but no remorse for stopping the Cyberman without.

So, because he felt sympathy for the remains of the person inside, he forced that person to commit suicide via horror at their own existence?

I don't mind that the Doctor fights Cybermen or kills them, but that was a particularly wretched way to treat something you sympathize with.

-Allows an alien-caused volcanic eruption to wipe out thousands of people in Pompeii while choosing to save a select few.

That was a fixed point in history, and look how it weighed on him that it was by his hand that it happened.

Apparently so fixed he was able to bring a family out of the danger zone and have no repercussions at all.

Again, I don't care how things affect him emotionally for this argument. The Doctor is not a pacifist. He does not avoid killing or avoid letting beings die that he might have been able to help. He kills and "fails to help" often.

-Kills Miss Hartigan in "The Next Doctor" by sucking her and the Cyber King into the Time Vortex while she was in the middle of an emotional crisis.

Can't have a cyberking running around destroying London, and he gave her several chances to try and stop.

He didn't remove her once she was able to express emotion again, didn't send them to another time period or another planet, and he didn't go back in time to prevent her from controlling the Cyber King. He sent them straight into the vortex where they'd be ripped to shreds.

11 isn't giving chances, he's just executing them.

Just because someone issues a warning doesn't mean it suddenly erases their actions or makes them a pacifist, though. It might have eased 10's conscience and allowed him to get to sleep at night, but in the end 10 still committed genocide and murder.

He bears no remorse, less sympathy, and he's acting selfishly and emotionally. He's taking everything into his hands, and when he's done this before (drowning newborns, Time Lord victorious), he very quickly realized he'd gone too far. Now, he's embracing it, and taking hold of the rage and the fury, and he almost wants it.

Which is why I find 11th so much more interesting than 10 (at least near the end of Tennant's tenure).

Again, I'm not arguing he's a pacifist. He's certainly not. But there's a difference between someone wanting to commit murder, and someone extremely capable of it, but is unwilling. The Doctor so far has gone out of his way, more often than not, to avoid flat out killing things. Here is a vengeful, destructive creature that is essentially immortal, filled with all kinds of furies, yet who yearns for nonviolence.

"He never raised his voice. That was the worst thing... the fury of the Time Lord... and then we discovered why. Why this Doctor, who had fought with gods and demons, why he had run away from us and hidden. He was being kind." (Son of Mine, Family of Blood)

Even his kindness is dangerous.

And some minor counterpoints for above: Vesuvius was a fixed point, but the lives of some minor people around the event can be changed without affecting the history of the event. 9th and Rose have this discussion when she saves her father. He couldn't have gone back to stop her becoming the cybercontroller, because then he'd be going back on his own timeline, which is to be used for only shenanigans, apparently. And as for the werewolf, he's killed quite a few of the one-off beasts that were attacking, merely because they were attacking the person of interest in that episode. He usually aims to subdue, but does occasionally mean that it ends up dead. This is something different from seeking out the death of an individual or group, which is what he's taken to doing lately.

 

[Rasor]

Ever since the newest doctor the show has devolved into a soap opera, bad acting and all.
Any new episode I try to watch makes me spew bile.
If the eleventh doctor was declared non-cannon and they just tried again it would only benefit the series.