Don't go to college (if you're in college, drop out)

[zelda2fanboy]

I don't mean to be a snob or a killjoy but are you really referring to business administration as a "practical scientific field"?

Furthermore, there seems to be an implication that those who go into actual practical scientific fields instead of an "art" are "wasting there time and money on a degree for something they have no passion for"? Some of us have passion for the sciences, they are beautiful and magnificent. If I've inferred the wrong idea then I apologise.

Minor boo-boo on my part. People love to crap on art degrees, so I was defending them while inadvertently offending another group of people. In my case, I went for a pointless "science" degree that seemed practical at the time. I really loved Biology and that probably would have been worth my time had I been in the right environment/school. Seriously though, business degrees are crap. I learned nothing of value in any of my business classes. It's a non-subject and not a science, even if universities consider it to be. Sorry if someone here is passionate about business, but it is.

 

[uzo]

Aand you have my attention, good sir.

May I ask where you heard about the success of teaching English abroad? I'm hoping to do a TEFL course some point once I've save up a good deal of money, so I was wondering if you have any person experience on the matter? *snippy*

Hey hey. Lived in Japan 7 years myself. Got there on the ol' English teaching gig and stuck around (may head back someday ... wifey misses hometown ... and the food).

Ok .. quick low down on life in Japan:

I'm Aussie. Lived in London as well at GCSE-ish age. And both Australia and UK are *extremely* expensive next to life in Japan. Srsly .. cost of living in Japan is sweet FA. I lived in Moriguchi (about 20 mins from downtown Osaka) in a 2-bedroom apartment. Cost something in the vicinity of A$500. A MONTH. In Australia or UK you're likely to be paying that much per week. Now, admittedly, this was no prize-winning apartment. But I was a 1 minute run to the train station (Moriguchi was an express stop), and my monthly train tickets (teiki) was about A$100 (again, I'd pay that per week in Australia).

Food is cheap - but be warned. You need to eat like the Japanese. Don't go there expecting to eat pork chops and beef. You'll be eating *a lot* of curry (I'm guessing by your avatar you're a Brit, so that shouldn't be an issue) and cream stews. Bread is cheaper than rice, but it's a little sweeter than Western bread so can get a bit sickly after a few days (vegemite on the J-bread is blergh). I used to get home at around 10pm and the local supermarket had everything on special. My daily food bill (breakfast, lunch & dinner) would total around A$10. And that's not an emergency diet either. Again, a fraction of the cost of living in Australia or UK.

You *should* be able to find work easily enough in Japan. If you can join a company before leaving your home country you'll have a better time. Or if you've got a friend already there. I joined back in the glory days when it was much easier. With the crash of the biggest school (Nova) it was tougher because there was suddenly a sea of experienced teachers. But this should have dried up by now.

Try talking to any of the bigger companies first .. the aforementioned Nova for example (currently owned by G.Education I believe). They're not the greatest of places to work, but the money's OK and the employment guaranteed unless you are a total fucktard (ie tow the company line and do some overtime and nod and smile when someone criticises your teaching and you'll do great).

You should be looking at a salary of around JPY250,000 a month for starters. Pick up some private work on the side and that'll jump *fast*. One danger is (not that it's really that much of a danger) is that you may come back married. Japanese gals have a tendency to fall in love 10 times as fast and 10 times as strongly as Western gals. EDIT: Not sure if you're a guy though ... nm.

The other danger is once you're there, you may never leave. Especially if the marriage thing happens.

Your salary will ceiling very quickly. Basically, since Japan's economy went south back in the late 90s, salaries have been frozen. The most you can expect to make in any of the English schools would be JPY300,000 at the very limit. But pick up those privates and you'll be raking in the dough.

Goddamnit ... I miss Japan.

Oh yeah ... TESOL will help you in getting jobs in English-speaking countries (ie you want to teach English in UK or Aust? TESOL. You want to teach in Japan? Pfft. Fill in the application form correctly and you're in). At least that was my impression of it. If you want to make a career out of it, go for it.

 

[Frostbite3789]

I can see why you'd call the books a scam, it is pretty ridiculous how new editions are 'needed' when the subject material hasn't been updated yet. Cost of classes? Not seeing how that is supposedly a scam. Nor do the loans appear to be a scam. Books alone don't make the entire thing a scam, especially when some of it is pretty necessary. Besides, it actually provides a service. Unless you're not in fact learning anything there's not really any grounds to call it a scam.

You can make it a gamble. But what's being sold is education and that is what is being provided. There's no guarantee of some job afterwards or more money. And it's just a gamble. A gamble implies it's just luck. There's more to it than that.

That's the thing though, everyone tells you it's absolutely essential. You won't be hired by most people if you don't have a college degree. Does the job have anything to do with that actual job? No. But you need it! It's essential to your job to have paid thousands upon thousands upon thousands of dollars for that piece of paper that says you learned not a damn thing that has to do with this field!

Life experience, is one argument. I guess we need to shell out a ton of cash for that? It just seems so...misconstrued to the point of being disgusting, at this point.

 

[chadachada123]

I'm going for med school, which is different in comparison to looking for a job in a market that already has far too many candidates to begin with.

Point is: Only get a degree in a field that is looking for more people. Don't bother with art shit or simple shit where you're just another number in a sea of people exactly like you all vying for 10 positions. Avoid oversaturated markets where some 10%-50% of applicants actually get the job.

 

[DiMono]

I have a College diploma, and I use it every day. I finished at the top of my class for computer programming, and I spent the last 5 1/2 years as the head of web development at a marketing company, until I left for personal reasons. The diploma taught me what I need to know in order to do my job.

It seems weird to me that a) you haven't told us what your degree is (unless it's beyond page 1 and I missed it), and b) you seem to believe that the problem isn't with you, but with everybody else. Having a degree isn't the one thing you need, as you seem to have believed it to be, it's just a demonstration that you know more about your selected area of expertise than those around you. Your misinterpretations should not be used as a touchstone for society.

 

[Wintermoot]

my parents have been saving money for a higher education since I was born meaning that the chance that I end up having a student debt pretty low.

 

[Frostbite3789]

Uh what? What in the world are you talking about? You seriously don't think there are some degrees where it's absolutely essential? I'd hate to see a doctor who didn't get a degree, or an engineer who didn't get a degree. And what do you mean doesn't have a damn thing to do with the field? Maybe some degrees. Broad generalization on that though.

And that's taking hyperbole and applying it to something I didn't say. I didn't say all schooling was unneccesary, just most degrees that aren't incredibly specialized are just for that piece of paper, nothing more.

 

[El Dwarfio]

I've been making minimum wage for the last three and a half years working in a retail store. I only get about 20 hours a week. I owe $11,000 on my college loan (pretty low by most standards) for my bachelors of science degree in Business Administration. I've applied for dozens and dozens of jobs across two major cities over the last two years.

Several issues here. One you degree was in what sorry? Business Administration. Not implying anything here, but I'm sure it's fair to say that, as such you can only talk for your fellow Business Administrators.

Furthermore theres more to getting a job than simply applying for one. Admittedly this is something there not too great on teaching at college. You need to build a resume, you need to put in the hours, you need to volunteer you need to do your extra-curricular work and you need to do something to put yourself above every other average joe with a business degree out there.

Look I don't like bashing America and I know this isn't true of everyone (and not exclusive to america) but there is a definite expectation that going to University will transport you automatically to the top of the corporate ladder and leave you set for life. They don't seem to understand that hard work continues after uni, no ones going to give you hand outs. I swear there would be a lot less 99% rallies if more Americans spent more time making themselves employable and less time just expecting the money to fall onto their laps.

Having a degree isn't the one thing you need, as you seem to have believed it to be, it's just a demonstration that you know more about your selected area of expertise than those around you. Your misinterpretations should not be used as a touchstone for society.

Thank goodness someone else understands.

 

[Conza]

I've been making minimum wage for the last three and a half years working in a retail store. I only get about 20 hours a week. I owe $11,000 on my college loan (pretty low by most standards) for my bachelors of science degree in Business Administration. I've applied for dozens and dozens of jobs across two major cities over the last two years.

I recently applied to work at the local Pepsi warehouse which paid $13 an hour. At my workplace, I overheard someone mentioning that their friend got a job there. This friend never graduated high school. So yeah, don't bother going to school. Waste of your time and money. There's no defense of it. The only way I have the shit job I have now is because my dad worked there and complained to my old boss enough to hire me.

Hmm no.

I should leave it there but I won't. I got a job out of highschool, worked there for 3 years, and then I went travelling for 6 months. When I came back, since I didn't have a degree, I couldn't get another job, so I ended up doing all of these crappy jobs, most of which wouldn't take me because I didn't have retail experience and I'm too expensive because I'm old.

The point here kids, is don't listen to this guy, go to school, then get rich, and spit at the fact society is so fu*ked you had to go to school, only once you have, and no you won't learn f*cking shit there, but the people that employ you did it too, so, its an innitiation of mutual pain, that's all it's about.

 

[AngloDoom]

Aand you have my attention, good sir.

May I ask where you heard about the success of teaching English abroad? I'm hoping to do a TEFL course some point once I've save up a good deal of money, so I was wondering if you have any person experience on the matter? *snippy*

Hey hey. Lived in Japan 7 years myself. Got there on the ol' English teaching gig and stuck around (may head back someday ... wifey misses hometown ... and the food).

Ok .. quick low down on life in Japan:

-Le snip-

I cannot thank you enough for the details you've given me here. While I'd already heard similar things from a few websites, it's reassuring to hear it off of an unbiased stranger not trying to sell me something. You have my full appreciation, and I owe you many an internet cookie.

I'd probably say something else, but I haven't slept in yonks and I feel like my brain is made of Playdough so I might have to come back to you on that one.

 

[Blunderboy]

Snip

Maybe, just maybe, you're not getting the jobs because you're a bit of a dick?
Hear me out. I know it's annoying when you can't find work, but qualifications and experience are great. However if someone is a dick, you're not going to hire them.

 

[Arluza]

Short version to OP: you're an idiot to go into a business related field. Even then, you should have applied yourself, gone to events where you could make connections, get a job that way. Plan for getting a job in any city in the country.

I've been watching this thread the entire time, and I just realized how awful it is to get a business related degree and still have no connections. I mean... isn't the kind of thing you really need in business of all places?

It seems to me you need connections for any field. Art degree is the same. Natural sciences true to a lesser degree.

 

[Humanity1]

Gah! This is one of my biggest per peeves: People who complain that since they're working/worked as hard as they can/could (or in some cases, put in some definable level of effort) and they haven't got a job then the system must be broken... Suuuure, it could be that... or it could just be that you're working hard instead of working smart or, to put it in other terms, working in spite of or even against the system instead of working with it.

If you want to open a door you could push the centre of the door as hard as you can and, who knows, you might eventually break through. Of course, the much more sensible and common alternative is you turn the doorknob and push gently as you're much more likely to get through the doorway expending substantially less effort. We all understand and accept this system and thus we all find it easy to open doors. No one sees someone push while opening a door and decides that pushing is all that is important if they want to open the door. Why then do people see successful people with university qualifications and think that's all they need to be successful?

Yes, you need a clean, sharp resume to land a job; Yes, you need a good cover letter to get noticed; Yes, networking and the concept of "It's not just what you know, but who you know" are still essential to getting a great job. That doesn't mean the system is broken, it's just how the system is. If we lived in a world where spending 3-4 years after high school networking was the norm and employers had decided that they also wanted university degrees as well as someone being in their network, I'm sure the people who had only networked over those years would be complaining about how they can't get a job from the people they networked with and how it's so unfair that the people who went and got a uni degree are getting all the good, relevant jobs. It's not a perfect example and I know that some people just fall into the networks they use to get a job (the 'He only got a job because he's friends with the boss' concept) but all the most successful people I know personally used all of these skills to get where they are today.

I will admit there is an issue with parents (and some universities) passing this idea that a university degree and hard work is all you need to be successful on to their kids. It's like the parents seeing someone push a door and twist their wrist as part of opening the door and then telling their kids that as well as pushing hard (working hard) they need to learn how to twist (go to uni). The only issue is that unless you know which direction to twist (how to use the skills you gain in uni to get work) and where to twist (networking to find jobs) you're not going to go anywhere.

When I was choosing what to do at uni I knew I wanted to do something to do with maths and so I had it down to four choices. I eliminated pure maths as there was almost no job market and then I chose not to pursue maths teaching as that's not what I wanted to do with my life. So when it came down to statistics or actuarial science I chose actuarial as it would teach me most of the statistics I would need plus a small graduating class (about 60 out of a campus of about 30000). In addition I made sure it was accredited. I looked at job market, skill set acquired and personal interest when making my decision. Following that over the three years of my course I made sure that I worked on my networks, making personal relationships, attending networking session and programs run by the university and well as seeking to expand my professional networks at all opportunities. I also made sure to join different committees and seek other leadership opportunities as I know that's what employers are now looking for in my market. Going into honours this year I will continue to do these things as well as over the next few weeks starting my Australia-wide search for graduate positions for 2013, applying for all that meet my areas of interest (of which there were plenty last year), not by waiting for the placement adverts to start appearing or even asking them if they will have jobs available but rather by enquiring about what is involved in the positions. This not only helps me discover if I want to do the job but it allows the employer to put a face and a personality to the name and will make my eventual application so much more than just a piece of paper.

TL;DR Don't complain about the system not working, work with the system.

 

[Electrogecko]

I agree with the OP.

We have a lot of people here saying things like "Oh because you had a bad personal experience, we should all drop out" in a sarcastic tone, but it's pretty undeniable that colleges (in the US at least) have become more of an expensive social requirement and right of passage than an actual place to learn useful life skills.

It used to be that a small percentage of the population went to college and an even smaller percentage got a college degree- doing so distinguished yourself. Nowadays, companies don't hire unless you have a college degree, and the reason for this is because of the amount of college grads available, and the reason for this is that our society collectively considers college to be indispensable.

The truth is, private (and even a lot of public) colleges are indeed businesses and do resort to practices that I would consider "scams," (can you explain why I'm required to buy a $200 textbook in order to pass a class?.....I learned physics in high school, why can't I just take a test and get a grade?) but the public has this view of universities as a source of knowledge and enlightenment, and so they turn a blind eye and choose to believe that it's all necessary to ensure students' futures.

The truth is, the things that you learn in college are important, but 90% of it or more is going to be useless for the rest of your life after you graduate, and even if you're an absolute genius and expert in your chosen field, whoever hires you will still put you through a training phase in which you will learn everything you need to know in order to do your job.

As our society becomes more and more advanced in the fields of science, the solution isn't just to tack the cutting edge onto university programs, we also need to push other subjects down the ladder- college freshman courses should be becoming high school senior courses and high school to middle school and so on. I'm not talking about high schools offering college courses, I'm talking about the entire standard being shifted.

This is the 21st century and we need to wake the hell up. Colleges have only as much importance as society gives them. Knowledge is free in this world, so what exactly are people paying tens of thousands of dollars for? We need serious education reform in this country and I'll have nobody tell me otherwise. Why is it that we're imposing restrictions on ourselves? Neither a degree nor a high gpa proves that you're intelligent or even that you are exceptional in your designated field, all it does is prove that you payed a lot of money and spent a lot of time.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

Here is the correct plan for life. I wish I could go back in time and give this plan to my younger self. Note this only applies to the US.

1. recognize that public compulsory education in this country is worthless, it is simply a jobs program for teachers union, janitors union, and administration bureaucrats. Your goal is to waste as little time as possible in "school" and get on with the rest of your life.

2. while the public high schools are terrible community colleges actually have dedicated teachers, are full of motivated students and are very reasonably priced for the services they provide.

3. to pay for community college classes and related expenses you need to start working as soon as possible. There is no age limit on mowing lawns, volunteering for "tips", doing projects for your relatives, neighbors, friends parents for cash. At 15 you should be able to get part-time employment

4. also at 15 start taking community college classes, if your local cc doesn't accept at 15 you can talk to an adviser to get a waiver. Make sure you take generalist ed that are always always transferable to any 4 year school. English and math, non-lab science (lab classes are more expensive and time consuming), history. You can work toward an associate degree if you want or not, it doesn't really matter. Your goal is to have at least 15 transferable credits by your 17th birthday.

At this point you try to go to high school as little as possible. If your high school has a program that lets you get credits for working then get into that. If they have a flexible schedule and you can arrange to not have classes 1 or 2 days a week try to do that. If they have a program where you can substitute community college credits for highschool credits sure as hell do that.

The one exception to the uselessness of high school is the AP classes and tests. These are the cheapest, easiest ways to rack up college credits. The "fluff" test for the soft sciences (biology, environmental science, psychology), history, and english are trivially easy as long as you can read and retain information from your textbooks. Ideally you will arrange your high school schedule to maximize your AP classes. And even if you don't take the class some AP tests like English are so subjective and easy that you might want to take the test without it.

5. here is the part that requires parental cooperation and/or a bit of luck. At 17 you can enlist in the military with parental consent, and you can also drop out of high school. You need either your parents to support you (or at least not get in your way), or you need to take some of that money you earned and hire a lawyer to help you emancipate yourself.

The ideal outcome is to drop out, enlist, and ship out on your 17th birthday.

6. When you enlist you want to select the MOS (job) that you are interested in and most likely to get you stationed on a base in the continental united states and not get shot at. Sign up for 4-6 years.

7. While in the military you will have a lot of downtime between doing your job. Use that time to take college classes and finish your bachelor degree. Save the money from your salary and bonuses. Enlisted salary isn't that much but if you live on base and just use the facilities there you can save most of it.

8. Congratulations, you are 21-23 years old, have a bachelor's degree, have 5 figures in your bank account, are debt free, and have 4 years work experience that will move your resume to the top of the pile compared to any fresh out of college. You are at least 5 years ahead in life of any of the peer group you went to high school with.

Or alternatively if you like the military lifestyle go career and retire at 37/38 with a pile of money, half your military pay, and free medical care for the rest of your life.

 

[Aprilgold]

Uh what? What in the world are you talking about? You seriously don't think there are some degrees where it's absolutely essential? I'd hate to see a doctor who didn't get a degree, or an engineer who didn't get a degree. And what do you mean doesn't have a damn thing to do with the field? Maybe some degrees. Broad generalization on that though.

And that's taking hyperbole and applying it to something I didn't say. I didn't say all schooling was unneccesary, just most degrees that aren't incredibly specialized are just for that piece of paper, nothing more.

Thank goodness I wasn't the only one who was going to say this.

With any degree now in days, you need to be the most social person you can find at that school. Which is where most of your employment after the fact will come from, those who somehow get a job as a manager somewhere, or secretary that can put in a good word for you. You can no longer just do the work and get a job after, now you basically need a list of people saying that your worth the job.

 

[oktalist]

You should really have known that a Business Admin degree is a bunch of toss. Good luck with harbouring life-long resentment for those of us who spent our $11,000+ wisely and got proper degrees.