Don't say that's retarded, it hurts special kids feelings NOT ABOUT CALLING SPECIAL KIDS RETARDED

[PeterMerkin69]

Not at all, and I underlined the words that ruin your analogy. If you throw money into the street, someone can choose whether or not to chase after it. People cannot generally speaking choose how they will comprehend the words you say, because that's not how semantic meaning works. Semantic meaning is not a conscious choice, but a complex pattern of associations and gaps in the lexicon. A person can't choose whether or not to find your use of "retard" offensive.

Of course not, meanings are co-constructed. The offended have no control over what I put into the things I say. If I intentionally use a word that's commonly understood to denigrate the mentally challenged then their family and friends may take that to mean that I don't care about their relations' conditions, or that I associate those conditions with something bad. That's not the contention. The contention is that my offence can't force them to feel pain because we can control our reactions and our emotions. I'm not manually overpowering them and dragging them into traffic. They're willing participants in the pain they feel because unlike the intent or meaning in my words, emotion is something that's within our power to control. Well, most of us, anyway. And in the end, isn't that voluntary pain the undesirable consequence that supposedly makes my behavior dickish?

Not an academic fact so there's no citation, but no where else in polite, adult society is it considered appropriate to demand people defend their feelings. If you walk into the office and say, "I'm having a bad day," only a gormless idiot with zero social skills would respond with, "no you're not, you're wrong. You're having a great day." So it is with the emotions people feel as a result of your word choices.

Obviously. The tactful approach would be to shift the conversation to something more benign, then perhaps after that, casually ask them if they'd seen the latest report on the infant mortality rate in Darfur.

Not in polite, adult society. If you're trying to "win" the basic act of conversation, no wonder you're having trouble with "If you know that word hurts, using it makes you a dick."

Just because we don't like competition doesn't mean that it isn't omnipresent in existence. Or is polite, adult society somewhere far, far beyond?

 

[Abomination]

This is completely unrelated to the question I asked you.

It is directly related to it because everything is contextual and not every black person identifies themselves as a "******."

Two things, then:

1.) How do you figure that answering a yes or no question about how you think someone else should feel with "I probably wouldn't do it" is relevant, or anything other than a dodge?

2.) Not every black person thinks of himself as a ******, so you're arguing he's not allowed to be hurt by the word when someone calls him one?

1) Because knowing your audience is an important factor when it comes to the language you employ. Not every black person makes a deal of the word "******", some black people do use it as an insult, a black being offended by the word "******" is not a universal thing. With that in mind I wouldn't use the term around people who I know will likely be offended as my verbal freedom of expression in that particular instance isn't worth the potential backlash.

2) Everyone is allowed to be hurt by whatever they want to be hurt by. I would just think a black man being offended I called someone else a ****** in a very specific circumstance would most likely just be a trigger reaction than actual offence. I find the whole thing boils down to "because slavery/segregation" yet less and less people were even alive during those times.

I do not insult handicapped people for being handicapped but I will insult a non-handicapped person if they behave in a manner that would be embracing the most negative aspects of being mentally handicapped by calling them something I would not call a mentally handicapped person.

So you will also insult a non-black person by embracing the most negative aspects of being black,** by calling them something you wouldn't call a black person?

If that non-black person is behaving in a particular fashion and those who would hear it I believe would be able to understand the method in which I am applying the word "******", yes.

Though your question does seem to muddle the idea of intentional insult and unintentional insult.

That is deliberate. You seem to believe that your words stop exactly where you want them to; that they do not ripple out to anyone who can hear them and that, if they do, you can dictate how those words are to be interpreted and what context others are expected to apply. This is crap.

Words mean different things to different people. In order for me to respect that of other people then other people also need to respect it of me. If my goal is to insult someone and I obtained the most effective way of doing it I will seek to use it. Should there be any "collateral" offence I will have to deal with it but find that person's anger misplaced.

Almost every word used to describe someone's intellectual deficiency was previously used exclusively for at time to describe a mentally handicapped person. That being the case, how can one possibly discredit another's mental failings in an efficient manner without indirectly offending mentally handicapped people?

I do not give a pasty white fuck what words used to mean. I am not advocating for mentally handicapped people in the year 1602. I care about what words mean today.

It matters because "stupid" does not have the same weight as "retarded". "Stupid" and "idiot" are perceived to be quite light insults and do not invoke the same mental imagery as "retarded". Yet they all mean the same thing. I do not believe anyone wants to be mentally handicapped, being compared to one who is mentally handicapped is offensive, it is a powerful insult against someone who is not mentally handicapped as it implies a gross failure to employ what should otherwise be a fully functional brain.

The use of "retard" within hearing distance of people who are mentally handicapped is similar to the use of "******" around black people - in that it depends entirely upon the individual who decides to be offended by proxy. I tend to find those who are not offended by such things to be far more rational individuals. I find being offended by proxy about something to be insulting yourself.

**Assuming that black is something you can be.

Not sure what this means since it is well established that people can have significantly different skin pigmentation.

 

[JimB]

Not every black person makes a deal of the word "******:" Some black people do use it as an insult, but a black being offended by the word "******" is not a universal thing.

Oh. So the intent with which you speak the words--to insult and offend--is less important than what the audience perceives. So if I murder a man, but convince people that it was self-defense, I have not actually murdered anyone.

Everyone is allowed to be hurt by whatever they want to be hurt by. I would just think a black man being offended I called someone else a ****** in a very specific circumstance would most likely just be a trigger reaction than actual offense.

I am certain everyone appreciates you telling them you know what they feel better than they do.

I find the whole thing boils down to "because slavery/segregation" yet less and less people were even alive during those times.

Ah. Yes. No black person alive today has been called a ****** with the intent of hurting him or telling him that black people are inferior and separate. Neither has any mentally handicapped person alive today been called a retard with the intent of telling him his condition makes him inferior and separate.

So you will also insult a non-black person by embracing the most negative aspects of being black,** by calling them something you wouldn't call a black person?

If that non-black person is behaving in a particular fashion and those who would hear it I believe would be able to understand the method in which I am applying the word "******", yes.

I refute the idea that there is ever a situation in which "you are acting like a stupid black person" is ever more necessary than "you are acting like a stupid person."

Words mean different things to different people. In order for me to respect that of other people then other people also need to respect it of me.

There is a limit. English is a ridiculously, staggeringly versatile language, and you really should be able to find a different way to express the idea "I find your behavior foolish and contemptible" without bringing mental handicaps into it. I cannot convince myself that your refusal to do so is anything other than a combination of mean-spiritedness and laziness.

It matters because "stupid" does not have the same weight as "retarded."

Try "How can you be this stupid and still remember to take your pants off before you sit down to take a crap?"

**Assuming that black is something you can be.

Not sure what this means since it is well established that people can have significantly different skin pigmentation.

Black skin is something you can have, yes. I do not understand how "black" is something you can be, such that it has negative qualities so specific to blackness that we need special language to describe those particular negative qualities. I similarly question why, if blackness is a thing that we need specialized language to describe the negative qualities of, I have never heard any specialized language to describe positive qualities that are unique to blackness.

 

[Abomination]

Not every black person makes a deal of the word "******:" Some black people do use it as an insult, but a black being offended by the word "******" is not a universal thing.

Oh. So the intent with which you speak the words--to insult and offend--is less important than what the audience perceives. So if I murder a man, but convince people that it was self-defense, I have not actually murdered anyone.

Murder only occurs under specific circumstances, much like offence.

Everyone is allowed to be hurt by whatever they want to be hurt by. I would just think a black man being offended I called someone else a ****** in a very specific circumstance would most likely just be a trigger reaction than actual offense.

I am certain everyone appreciates you telling them you know what they feel better than they do.

Try comprehension, I didn't say "everyone", I said "in a very specific circumstance" and "likely". If your goal is to just try and paint me as a heartless and arrogant asshole for having a differing opinion on the use of language we can end our conversation right here.

 

[funnydude6556]

I'm actually disabled myself so maybe I could offer a perspective here, when your disabled for a while you have a lot of people telling you that you think differently but really how would we know? I mean can you understand how the people around you think? No but when your disabled you get told that so much that sometimes you just wonder in what why your different becasue you honestly feel as normal as the people around you.

Not to make fun of other disabled people but I feel quite lucky, I've only got mild aspergers and ADD so I don't think I have it as bad as other people but I will say this.

1) I personally don't like being over-protected. It's not that I don't appreciate the help becasue I do and I get that it's not out of hatred but wanting to be a decent person that other people do it but sometimes people can over-help and that leaves you feeling incapable, I mean it got to the point where I was younger that I'd do things the wrong way just becasue I out-rightly refused help so I'd say over-protecting can be bad but sometimes some disabled people need to be reminded that needed help isn't a bad thing.

2) Disabled people can be bad people. A lot of people treat the disabled like we're freaking care bears can we be totally be jerks and I've met a few disabled people who are complete jerks.

3) I think sometimes when your disabled you can act silly or jokingly as a defense mechanism for confrontation. I can't talk on behalf of every disabled person but I find that I can get like that and in really serious situation where it looks like something might kick off I find I have to leave the room or area. I mean especially with my disability it's like you can't trust yourself not to do or say the wrong thing, heck sometimes I'll reword comments or posts 20 times becasue I'm afraid I'll upset someone.

4) The problem with the R-Word is that many disabled people will refuse to speak up like I said out of fear of confrontation. To them if something goes wrong it was their fault for saying something and well it's not like there isn't other ways of saying stupid.

5) There are still people out there who intentionally insult and attack you if your disabled and back in secondary school I've been attacked a fair few times some that actually turned violent and some that went way too personal. This draws into my first point, I mean you let anyone live in a fake world where nothing bad ever happens of course their going to be left upset and depressed when you let them out into the real world.

The thing is disabled people aren't any different to normal people. I know I can act weird sometimes and that's off-putting to some people. If I do something wrong like anyone else I except to face the consequences of those actions but the bottom line is that it's not about over-protecting or tough love but really just respecting that it's something disabled people can't help. Also to be fair sometimes I can be stupid and use the retarded sometimes, it's just a slip of the tongue so I don't think you have to attack yourself over it every time you say the word.

 

[PeterMerkin69]

You are correct on the first part, not the second. With practice and willpower, people can control their reactions to their emotions. Controlling one's own actual emotions is not possible in the context we're discussing. If I find a word you use offensive, it is not possible for me to immediately think myself away from being offended. We can make small changes to our own emotional state through adopting practices in daily life, but we can't just radically shift what we feel from moment to moment. The suggestion that someone should is absurd.

I don't really think that's true at all. There are times when you have to put your feelings aside in order to get through life. How could anyone fight wars, perform surgery, avoid conflict, or speak in public if that were? How could they make any decisions after being upset? Welp, I saw a dog get hit by a car on the way to work today, better not judge this beauty pageant! That would be absurd.

Even more, why would you knowingly put that kind of burden on someone in the first place? "Hi, I'm going to put you on an emotional roller-coaster and oblige you to radically shift your emotional response to the words I use because first amendment I don't adapt to anyone kkthx."

It's honestly just not that big of a deal to me. Emotional roller-coaster implies they watched their fiancée die half an hour after proposing. It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times. Honestly, do you die a little inside every time someone says something bad about you or to you? Or do you shrug it off and go about your day because you have better things to do? Better yet, if dicks are such dicks, why would you even care what they said?

Yeah, this kind of response makes me wonder just how much time you've spent in the adult world. Perhaps you work in sales?

I've spent a long time in the working world, and the only adults I've ever met who have espoused such a belief have been in sales. They have also to a man been obnoxious, socially-stunted time vampires who add nothing to the social situations they put themselves in. Hardly anyone else at the company could stand talking to them, and eventually they were let go due to their unprofessional attitude.

You'll brook no argument there; all the salesmen I know are retards, too.

Which belief are you referring to? That life is inherently competitive or that the offended are responsible for their own predicaments?

 

[PeterMerkin69]

Read what I wrote again. I already said people can control how they respond to emotions. What is in dispute is that they can control their emotions themselves.

Maybe not to the extent that it's like flipping a switch on or off, but you can certainly dial them down, or push them away until you don't notice them. At least I can. Isn't something like that employed in cognitive and/or positive psychology, too?

So, you don't care that you knowingly cause hurt to others? Then you deserve to be judged for that. There's really not anything more to say.

Of course I care. I meant it's not really a big deal to me when people offend or insult me, personally. It's similar to when someone says you look tired and you take that to mean you look bad, or haggard, or otherwise unattractive. Everyone hurts someone sometimes, but it's no big deal, we don't jump to judgement for that, do we? We might snap that they're a ***** sometimes, or roll our eyes, but then we go back to whatever it was we were doing. That minuscule judgement, if you want to call it that, is all it warrants, in my humble opinion.

Hehe, humble.

Are you a nihilist?

That all social interactions are competitive.

Only to the extent that there are no selfless acts and when you put a group of people together, they're each going to be trying to get something out of it on some level. It's not, like, a bro competition, to see who can land the most babes, or whatever.

 

[JimB]

Oh. So the intent with which you speak the words--to insult and offend--is less important than what the audience perceives. So if I murder a man, but convince people that it was self-defense, I have not actually murdered anyone.

Murder only occurs under specific circumstances, much like offense.

Yes: It only occurs under the specific circumstance that you intend to unlawfully cause the death of another human being. Intent is what separates murder from manslaughter.

Everyone is allowed to be hurt by whatever they want to be hurt by. I would just think a black man being offended I called someone else a ****** in a very specific circumstance would most likely just be a trigger reaction than actual offense.

I am certain everyone appreciates you telling them you know what they feel better than they do.

Try comprehension. I didn't say "everyone;" I said "in a very specific circumstance" and "likely."

I am not sure it reflects any better on you that you are only willing to tell black people they are not offended, and only in specific yet completely undefined circumstances.

If your goal is to just try and paint me as a heartless and arrogant asshole for having a differing opinion on the use of language we can end our conversation right here.

No, my goal is to express disgust with your compulsive need to be offensive apparently taking you to the point that you will argue that you know better than other people when they are offended (yes, yes, only in "a very specific circumstance;" whatever that even means). I don't have any need to try to paint you as heartless or arrogant: I think your own words do that perfectly well without needing me to waste any effort on it.

 

[Segafriday]

I cant believe that i actually have to tell you this, but apparently i have no choice. number one: Special doesn't mean what you think it means. number two. disabled children are not Special. they are different. not the same thing. number three: "retarded" is a shorthand for people who are so intensely low-functioning that they cannot possibly be of any value economically to the society which supports them. as in: they cannot work or care for themselves. its an actual problem and pretending that they are somehow Special is an insult to actual special people, like Einstein, Isaac newton, true geniuses. they were special. they were truly gifted. don?t lump disabled people in with them, just because someone has down syndrome doesn?t mean they are special little snowflakes that need to be coddled. its called disabled for a reason and no amount of pretty words will make them "gifted" its not the same thing. educate your self on the difference between the two.

and speaking of the difference between the two, scientist say that over 60% of people in north America have learning disabilities. this is mainly due to the chemicals in our water and air that we like to think are harmless. but also its due to the fact that we have warped view of what constitutes a learning disability. we know that not all people are created equal, some are smart, some are stupid some are in between. being stupid doesn?t make you a retard and being smart doesn?t mean you don?t have a learning disability of some kind. lets keep the word "retard" to refer to people who cannot even speak full words or bathe themselves, you know, the ACTUAL retards. don?t cheapen the meaning of the word.

oh and before you bleeding hearts decide to reflexively accuse me of being insensitive, you should know that it doesn?t make my points invalid, so behave like an intelligent person and use your words for more that just bitching and moaning.

peace out

 

[JimB]

I cant believe that I actually have to tell you this, but apparently I have no choice.

Don't do that. Don't pretend other people are responsible for the decisions you make; it comes off as a pathetic attempt to preemptively invalidate any criticism you garner for saying something you apparently feel guilty enough about that you need to distance yourself from it before you even say it.

Special doesn't mean what you think it means[...]Pretending that [disabled children] are somehow special is an insult to actual special people, like Einstein, Isaac newton, true geniuses.

Nor does the word mean what you think it means, since you seem to believe you can create a list of people who have special meaning for you and then apply it as an objective, universal standard.

Oh, and before you bleeding hearts decide to reflexively accuse me of being insensitive, you should know that it doesn?t make my points invalid, so behave like an intelligent person and use your words for more that just bitching and moaning.

That's true. Your points are invalid because you do not know the definitions of the words you are trying to define.

Peace out.

You may think that clumsily stapling this sentiment to the bottom of your post somehow negates how deliberately antagonistic it was. It doesn't.

 

[Tanner The Monotone]

I hate political correctness and the hypersensitivity that is prevalent today. Especially when it comes to politicians and the media. If the media wan't like white on rice with politicians saying things that they would consider offensive, we would have a better idea of what they really want.

I also hate it when people get on my back (and stays there) about saying something that offends them. I'll quit saying it if you ask polity, but if you start to lecture me about it, then I don't really care all that much about your feelings.

Maybe I feel this way because my friends say politically incorrect things all the time and don't ever get insulted.

 

[Naeo]

Take the entire argument in the first few posts, substitute "black people" for "special people/kids" and "******" for "retarded":

"Don't say ******, it hurts black people's feelings NOT ABOUT CALLING BLACK PEOPLE NIGGERS

Basically, they have been playing this BS video on the morning announcements for the past couple days. Basically, it's saying that because a word used to refer to a group and then became and insult and no one refers to them as that anymore, it's offensive to them.
"Well, it's just like gay people not wanting gay to be an insult"
Uh, no. Gay people still refer to themselves as gay. No one calls black people niggers.
To be clear, it isn't about calling black people niggers. It's about using ****** to insult normal people.
So yeah, discuss."

Then the basic objections become clear. (pardon the admittedly extreme example, it's the most illustrative)

People are opposed to using the word "retarded" as an insult or genera descriptor because it has acquired an incredibly negative connotation (not quite on the level of "******," but still, a very distinctly negative connotation). And it still does refer exclusively to the mentally handicapped, but nobody calls them that for the same reasons nobody calls black people "niggers," gay people "faggots," Mexicans "wetbacks," etc--the term has taken on a derogatory and insulting nature. This nature of the term can't be brushed under the rug, and the history of the treatment of the mentally handicapped/special needs really until the last few decades of history can't be ignored. It's not like we're talking about the landed white male aristocracies, who have never really been subjected to any serious injustices; we're talking about a group that has been subjected to extremely unfair and hateful conditions (forced commitment in the form of basically incarceration, but without rights; forced sterilization; outright murder; etc) for much of history. While I admit the campaign against the word "retarded" does often seem a little unnecessarily overboard, the general sentiment of "don't use derogatory terms for [X group] as a general insult" is spot-on.

 

[Vault101]

I also hate it when people get on my back (and stays there) about saying something that offends them. I'll quit saying it if you ask polity, but if you start to lecture me about it, then I don't really care all that much about your feelings.

I know right? why CAN'T you jsut call a ****** a ******? its their problem they get offended/sarcasm

I cant believe that i actually have to tell you this, but apparently i have no choice. number one: Special doesn't mean what you think it means.

when people call disabled people "special" it means "different"..they arent putting them int he same group as einstein because they are not the same thing

the thing is ANY word you assosiate with the intullectually disabled is going to come back as in insult...it has nothing to do with the words themselves but the sad fact that people will always make fun of the disabled

[quote/]this is mainly due to the chemicals in our water and air that we like to think are harmless[/quote]
its the aliens doing it...isn't it?

[quote/]lets keep the word "retard" to refer to people who cannot even speak full words or bathe themselves, you know, the ACTUAL retards. don?t cheapen the meaning of the word. [/quote]
see heres the thing [b/]you don;t get to choose if a word is hurtul or not[/b] its society and language shifting that does that, YES retard was a vaild word and its annoying that it isnt anymore (because it just shifts to another word)...but thats just the way it is, you can justify it all you want but if you really didnt want to be insulting youd just say disabled

[quote/]oh and before you bleeding hearts decide to reflexively accuse me of being insensitive, you should know that it doesn?t make my points invalid, so behave like an intelligent person and use your words for more that just bitching and moaning.
[/quote]
trying so hard to justify jerkish behaviour does not do much for ones credibility

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

I'm going to continue using retarded and gay to define my friends when they are being stupid or annoying and there is absolutely nothing anyone can say to make me think I'm a bad person for doing so.

AMA

 

[JimB]

I'm going to continue using retarded and gay to define my friends when they are being stupid or annoying and there is absolutely nothing anyone can say to make me think I'm a bad person for doing so.

Nor is there anything you can say to make me, at least, and I suspect a lot of others, think you're not a bad person for it.

 

[Ashannon Blackthorn]

I'm going to continue using retarded and gay to define my friends when they are being stupid or annoying and there is absolutely nothing anyone can say to make me think I'm a bad person for doing so.

Nor is there anything you can say to make me, at least, and I suspect a lot of others, think you're not a bad person for it.[/quote]

Hey JimB, I bet you really hate George Carlin don't you? Just thinking his comedy would really set off your various sore spots

 

[JimB]

Hey JimB, I bet you really hate George Carlin, don't you? Just thinking his comedy would really set off your various sore spots.

I'm not sure I've ever seen any of his stand-up routines, so I can't comment on their contents. I can only say that from what I've heard about him, his use of language was careful and intricately crafted so it was clear the irony of his offensive language was the point and not the cheap laugh of a shock gag.