Don't wear the American Flag on your shirt in California schools, you might offend the Mexicans.

[Helmholtz Watson]

Are you really defending criminals that illegally enter this country? Seriously?

Interesting choice of words. Tell me, when you call them "criminals," is it because entering the country illegally is a crime, or because you're trying to paint all illegal immigrants as cartel thugs and drug mules long before they even come within sight of the US border?

The only thing illegals deserve is to be deported back to their country of origin in the most humane way possible. If they don't like their country then come here LEGALLY or seek asylum, but nobody has the right to illegally come here.

I see. So I suppose you think that citizenship is super-easy to obtain? Fill out an application, put it in the mail, and a week later, you get your passport and a plane ticket into the US?

never did I once say that it was easy to obtain. I stated that people should come here legally, that is all. I don't care if you live in South Africa, Jordan, South Korea, Russia, Germany, Mexico, or Canada. If you come here, do it legally.

You ignored the first half of my question. That's certainly not telling of you.

never did I once say that it was easy to obtain. I stated that people should come here legally, that is all.

Yeah. Because illegal immigrants are basically just coming here to try and get a free vacation, right? Nothing about fleeing squalid living conditions, trying to provide for families, etc. Nothing like that at all.

Because, hypothetically, if those were possibilities, it might mean that the time and effort necessary trudging your way through the Department of Immigration aren't luxuries that they can afford.

I don't care if you live in South Africa, Jordan, South Korea, Russia, Germany, Mexico, or Canada. If you come here, do it legally.

Funny you should say that: Arizona justified their relatively-recent immigration law with that same sort of logic. It didn't just require Mexicans to carry proof of citizenship at all times lest they risk incarceration: it required that all immigrants do so.

But the funny part I alluded to? Arizona police don't seem too keen on demanding the man with the British accent present his papers as they are with virtually anyone Central-American looking. It was just a pale attempt to make a new and absurd kind of racial profiling seem non-racist.

Except I never said I supported the Arizona law, nor did I make any mention of it...... so I don't know why you brought it up. But I don't support it if that's what your getting at.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Are you really defending criminals that illegally enter this country? Seriously?

Interesting choice of words. Tell me, when you call them "criminals," is it because entering the country illegally is a crime, or because you're trying to paint all illegal immigrants as cartel thugs and drug mules long before they even come within sight of the US border?

The only thing illegals deserve is to be deported back to their country of origin in the most humane way possible. If they don't like their country then come here LEGALLY or seek asylum, but nobody has the right to illegally come here.

I see. So I suppose you think that citizenship is super-easy to obtain? Fill out an application, put it in the mail, and a week later, you get your passport and a plane ticket into the US?

never did I once say that it was easy to obtain. I stated that people should come here legally, that is all. I don't care if you live in South Africa, Jordan, South Korea, Russia, Germany, Mexico, or Canada. If you come here, do it legally.

You ignored the first half of my question. That's certainly not telling of you.

never did I once say that it was easy to obtain. I stated that people should come here legally, that is all.

Yeah. Because illegal immigrants are basically just coming here to try and get a free vacation, right? Nothing about fleeing squalid living conditions, trying to provide for families, etc. Nothing like that at all.

Because, hypothetically, if those were possibilities, it might mean that the time and effort necessary trudging your way through the Department of Immigration aren't luxuries that they can afford.

I don't care if you live in South Africa, Jordan, South Korea, Russia, Germany, Mexico, or Canada. If you come here, do it legally.

Funny you should say that: Arizona justified their relatively-recent immigration law with that same sort of logic. It didn't just require Mexicans to carry proof of citizenship at all times lest they risk incarceration: it required that all immigrants do so.

But the funny part I alluded to? Arizona police don't seem too keen on demanding the man with the British accent present his papers as they are with virtually anyone Central-American looking. It was just a pale attempt to make a new and absurd kind of racial profiling seem non-racist.

Except I never said I supported the Arizona law, nor did I make any mention of it...... so I don't know why you brought it up. But I don't support it if that's what your getting at.

Because you're working from the same kind of logic and he's making a comparison.

The same logic? Since when did I say that people should carry their papers on them?

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Are you really defending criminals that illegally enter this country? Seriously?

Interesting choice of words. Tell me, when you call them "criminals," is it because entering the country illegally is a crime, or because you're trying to paint all illegal immigrants as cartel thugs and drug mules long before they even come within sight of the US border?

The only thing illegals deserve is to be deported back to their country of origin in the most humane way possible. If they don't like their country then come here LEGALLY or seek asylum, but nobody has the right to illegally come here.

I see. So I suppose you think that citizenship is super-easy to obtain? Fill out an application, put it in the mail, and a week later, you get your passport and a plane ticket into the US?

never did I once say that it was easy to obtain. I stated that people should come here legally, that is all. I don't care if you live in South Africa, Jordan, South Korea, Russia, Germany, Mexico, or Canada. If you come here, do it legally.

You ignored the first half of my question. That's certainly not telling of you.

never did I once say that it was easy to obtain. I stated that people should come here legally, that is all.

Yeah. Because illegal immigrants are basically just coming here to try and get a free vacation, right? Nothing about fleeing squalid living conditions, trying to provide for families, etc. Nothing like that at all.

Because, hypothetically, if those were possibilities, it might mean that the time and effort necessary trudging your way through the Department of Immigration aren't luxuries that they can afford.

I don't care if you live in South Africa, Jordan, South Korea, Russia, Germany, Mexico, or Canada. If you come here, do it legally.

Funny you should say that: Arizona justified their relatively-recent immigration law with that same sort of logic. It didn't just require Mexicans to carry proof of citizenship at all times lest they risk incarceration: it required that all immigrants do so.

But the funny part I alluded to? Arizona police don't seem too keen on demanding the man with the British accent present his papers as they are with virtually anyone Central-American looking. It was just a pale attempt to make a new and absurd kind of racial profiling seem non-racist.

Your right, people are in sh*tty conditions around the world, but that doesn't justify illegally entering this country. There are starving people, but their situation doesn't justify if they steal food. It may not be nice, but it isn't wrong for me to ask that people seek asylum or come here legally. My family was worried about being bombed in Israel when it first became a country, and they still waited two years on the immigration list (or whatever it is) to come here. I guess if you were coming here from Burma or North Korea that might be an exception, but most people who come here legally are not coming from either country.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

There are already laws about what a school can and can't do, just look at when the students wanted to protest the Vietnam war by wearing arm bands.

They both need to stop because, as its been pointed out, there was past threats from both parties when they confronted one another. I didn't think I need to point this out, but kids being kids, a reason for both sides to stop would be that it would be a way to prevent violence happening on school grounds.

Dont we have enough people screaming/crying about what they can and cant celebrate on school grounds? I sincerely doubt the Mexican students were celebrating Cinco de Mayo just to piss of conservative white Americans. There were however non-hispanic kids using the American flag to as part of a scheme to antagonize Mexicans celebrating Cinco de Mayo.

To me it is clear which group was in the wrong and therefore deserving sanctions, and which group wasnt and therefore deserved to be left alone.

The first year I would say the Mexican students were not in the wrong, however they learned that, pissed people off and they did it the next year knowing that people were going to react in a certain way and yet they still did it. The White students also knew what was going to happen that day as well, so the in turn equally did something they knew would cause a reaction. Both groups should cut the sh*t. If you want to celebrate Cinco De Mayo or your American citizenship, do it somewhere else. School is not the place for it, perhaps a parade that featured both groups would be a better outlet.

So... let's say you like video games. You ware a shirt or otherwise express your love for video games at school. I go ballistic and bring in a giant poster of Jack Thompson and start yelling obsenities at you and threaten you with violence. The school decides to ban both video game references and Jack Thompson posters.

How is this a victory for anyone but me? The only reason I had the Jack Thomson poster was to antagonize YOU. And, now you can no longer express your (presumably) innocent love for video games? Which is what I wanted to stop in the 1st place.

By banning the celebration of Cinco de Mayo you are rewarding the people who responded irrationally and who unfairly wanted to stop people from celebrating what they thought was an important event, and you are punishing people that did nothing wrong.

The whole point should be to prevent violence, not for one group to have a "victory". That makes it sound like the situation is "us" vs "them" and its a battle for "victory". NO, its a school. School is for academics, not video games, ethnic or national pride. I went to school to learn math, science, ect. not to be subject to having to listen to two sides b*tch and moan about something that has no place is school.

You want to show video game, anti-video game, Mexican, or American pride? Join a parade, heck make a AFTER-school club about it, but DON'T make me have to listen to why your proud to be Mexican or American, because that's NOT why I go to school.

Once again, why not just focus on the ONE group that decided to make this into an issue of "us vs them". I remember going to school and LEARNING about how and what other cultures celebrate as a means of LEARNING about other cultures.

Frankly I am tired of dealing with laws/rules made because of stupid people doing stupid things. I thought sollutions like this were crap when I was in school, and I still think they are crap now. Punishing the entire class/school because of 1 kid (or group) is not justice for the perpetrator OR for the innocent.

Personal responsibility means that you alone are responsible for your OWN actions. One reason I believe that personal responsibility is on the decline is that we like to punish/prohibit everyone because of the actions of a few.

Last I checked, this celebration was not part of the school systems way of teaching about Mexican history. It is simply a student event, not a school organized one.

If people want to be proud, then be proud, I don't care about that. However, when you make a big thing about it, then it becomes an issue. Think of it like religion, if I'm Muslim and I want to be happy that its Eid ul-Fitr, then fine. However there is no reason for me to make a big thing about it to other students. I don't need to let everybody know what day it is today in order for it to be a happy day for me.

I thought the school responded appropriately to the appropriate people on the appropriate day. What about breaks, recess, and lunch? Are students just supposed to keep their heads down and never have conversations that can be heard by more than 1 person? Or are breaks, recess, and lunch unnecessary because they detract from pure uninterrupted learning? I guess all that's left is for us to agree to disagree. And, for me to say that I hope you never have any real power over any large group of people.

I certainly would never send any of my hypothetical children to your grey school teaching grey subjects. You know, because anything that could illicit an emotional response from anyone for any reason is inappropriate. That and the fact that they may have something important taken away from then because of the actions of other students.

I don't mind if people talk about it, but waving flags around it a different thing. Be proud your mexican, I don't care. However don't shove it in my face.

Too late, we already have schools like this, just look at what was called Christmas break, is now "winter break". Also, I'm not against learning about Cinco De Mayo, just against having parades at school that are not run by the school.

 

[Lunar Templar]

and illegals deserve what exactly? they're breaking the law just coming here, we have legal means to enter the country, but do they even try? some, maybe, most, no, they just walk on over, and , you seirusly expect me to have any kinda sympathy for them?

*facepalm* Alright, let's start simple. First question: how do you think it is that a person of foreign birth obtains both passage into America and US citizenship? For bonus points, do you think that said process is free and instantaneous?

I'm aware the CORRECT method for obtain legal citizen ship is a pain, but how many are even trying that route hmm ...

Second question: do you have any idea what the US/Mexico border looks like? Obviously not, because you're under the influence that illegal immigrants "just walk on over" whenever they feel like it.

your correct never been to one of those desert states -.- way to hot for my north westerner ass and given how many illegals are up here,

Spoiler

yes we have illegal immigrants of Mexican origin way the fuck up here. you know Forks? the same Forks talked about in the twilight books? a LOT of em live there.

the border patrols 'security' isn't doing a damn thing.

just out of curiosity (since your profile doesn't state it) is the US even your country?

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Well that was the impression I got. I mean I doubt this would even be newsworthy otherwise.

Then I'm sorry to be the bearer of harsh reality. The WBC didn't make headlines because local governments tried to revoke the first amendment within the confines of a cemetery, and these kids didn't get in the paper because they were unfairly victimized bystanders.

The simple truth is that freedom of speech is there to protect the expressions that we don't like, because there's no need to protect the stuff we already agree with. My problem with this case was the fact that these kids were trying to incite some sort of racial conflict. When something constitutes a "clear and present danger," that's when its first amendment coverage ceases.

WTF? What the brought on that lecture? All I said was that I got the impression that everybody at this school who had US flags on their shirts were being asked to reverse them and how if it wasn't so wide spread it wouldn't really be newsworthy. ...unless it was a really slow newsday. How did that warrant a lecture on your 1st amendment and freedom and whatever??

 

[tsb247]

This is nonsense.

For me, political correctness on this level is absurd, and I have about zero sympathy when it comes to immigrants being offended by my own national pride. They chose to come and live here, and I honestly don't care how miserable the sight of my flag makes them.

When going to another country (to live), you must adapt to the culture in which you intend to immerse yourself. To refuse to do so is generally considered to be insulting to the general population.

How would you feel if I came into your house, insulted your taste in decorating, moved my own furniture in, shoved you in a corner, and tossed out a precious photo album or generally treated something special to you in a careless way? That's generally how I feel when people come into the U.S. and proclaim, "I hate your country," and fly their flags above my nation's flag.

I have about 0 sympathy for them, and I am ashamed the school behaved this way. Political correctness is the death of free speech.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

Except I never said I supported the Arizona law, nor did I make any mention of it...... so I don't know why you brought it up. But I don't support it if that's what your getting at.

*facepalm* I said that you were using the exact same logic that the legislators were using for that law to try and pretend that it wasn't racist. You said how you didn't care if illegal immigrants were from Canada, Germany, etc, etc, other prominent countries, and that they should be treated the same. That's all well and good...except that there are basically none of them for you to actually prove your sincerity with. You hold a view that encompasses nobody but Central/South Americans and a hypothetical group of immigrants who haven't existed in large numbers since the turn of the twentieth century.

Your right, people are in sh*tty conditions around the world, but that doesn't justify illegally entering this country. There are starving people, but their situation doesn't justify if they steal food. It may not be nice, but it isn't wrong for me to ask that people seek asylum or come here legally.

Wait, hang on. You're saying that, as a parallel to this situation, a starving person would do better to die of hunger than commit a nonviolent property crime to avoid that?

My family was worried about being bombed in Israel when it first became a country, and they still waited two years on the immigration list (or whatever it is) to come here.

Alright, so you were living in fear of your life and the lives of your family.

Now, with that in mind, could you honestly say that if America had been right next door instead of across a continent and an ocean, you wouldn't consider placing your family's safety over a bureaucratic procedure?

I guess if you were coming here from Burma or North Korea that might be an exception, but most people who come here legally are not coming from either country.

Wait, what? Dude, North Korea's been locked down for decades. Basically none of its citizens in or out without some sort of government-sanctioned reason.

I'm aware the CORRECT method for obtain legal citizen ship is a pain, but how many are even trying that route hmm ...

Not just "a pain." That implies that it's merely annoying to do, like having to fill out abnormally specific forms or something. And certainly, there are those involved.

But the main issue? It's not difficult at all to get rejected outright. And even if you can get into the country, actually getting citizenship is a whole 'nother mess. That's why people are willing to pay guides to help them cross the border somehow, even when that sum of money is a good deal more than whatever might be involved in the green card application.

your correct never been to one of those desert states -.- way to hot for my north westerner ass and given how many illegals are up here,

Spoiler

yes we have illegal immigrants of Mexican origin way the fuck up here. you know Forks? the same Forks talked about in the twilight books? a LOT of em live there.

the border patrols 'security' isn't doing a damn thing.

On the contrary: border patrol is better equipped than most police departments, at least as far as weapons go. In other words, the US/Mexican border is guarded by men with military-grade assault weapons...and these are men who specifically joined the border patrol. Besides, denouncing the failure of border patrol for the mere existence of illegal immigrants is like declaring 'police' to be a failed service because there are still criminals.

And guards aside, I've not even taken geography into account yet. Steep cliffs, fast rivers, etc...those are the sorts of things that we don't need to put walls near or even set up patrols by. If they're not impassable, they're very dangerous.

just out of curiosity (since your profile doesn't state it) is the US even your country?

Really? Huh. Don't know how I missed that. Then again, I didn't put much work into my profile, so I guess that explains it.

To answer your question, yes, it is.

WTF? What the brought on that lecture? All I said was that I got the impression that everybody at this school who had US flags on their shirts were being asked to reverse them and how if it wasn't so wide spread it wouldn't really be newsworthy. ...unless it was a really slow newsday. How did that warrant a lecture on your 1st amendment and freedom and whatever??

Alright, I'll explain it slowly:

Yes, technically "everybody" in the school wearing an American flag T-shirt was asked to change/turn it inside out.

That being said, only four people actually fit that description, so only four people were even asked.

Those four people were primed to continue the tradition from the previous year of trying to incite racial violence with other students.

So yeah. Four people. And my "lecture" was perfectly applicable, even if you can't see why.

This is nonsense.

For me, political correctness on this level is absurd, and I have about zero sympathy when it comes to immigrants being offended by my own national pride. They chose to come and live here, and I honestly don't care how miserable the sight of my flag makes them.

Goddamnit...

Right, as I've said before: this wasn't an issue of Mexican-American students being offended by American flags. This was an issue of a group of white students trying to incite some sort of race war the previous year, and then choosing to 'coincidentally' wear tacky shirts the same date the next year.

When going to another country (to live), you must adapt to the culture in which you intend to immerse yourself. To refuse to do so is generally considered to be insulting to the general population.

Wait, what? Since when was that ever the case? Nobody says that in Chinatown or Little Italy. Is our allowance of cultural diversity restricted to different groups of white people?

How would you feel if I came into your house, insulted your taste in decorating, moved my own furniture in, shoved you in a corner, and tossed out a precious photo album or generally treated something special to you in a careless way? That's generally how I feel when people come into the U.S. and proclaim, "I hate your country," and fly their flags above my nation's flag.

Oh, joy.

Alright, challenge time: show me how that relates to this article in the slightest. The part where the Mexican-American students were burning flags or something like that. Because as it stands, the administrators were dealing with four students who might as well have been part of their highschool's white supremacist club.

I have about 0 sympathy for them, and I am ashamed the school behaved this way. Political correctness is the death of free speech.

Here's a hypothetical scenario for you, then:

It's St. Patrick's Day. You're enjoying a party with friends when suddenly music and conversation is drown out by the blaring sound of "God Save the Queen." You look in the direction of the music, and you see that a group of people wearing powdered wigs and tricornered hats have decided that your once-per-year country-affiliated holiday is somehow an affront to their homeland, and therefore they are going to do everything in their power to ruin the occasion for you.

Does that seem reasonable?

 

[Canadamus Prime]

WTF? What the brought on that lecture? All I said was that I got the impression that everybody at this school who had US flags on their shirts were being asked to reverse them and how if it wasn't so wide spread it wouldn't really be newsworthy. ...unless it was a really slow newsday. How did that warrant a lecture on your 1st amendment and freedom and whatever??

Alright, I'll explain it slowly:

Yes, technically "everybody" in the school wearing an American flag T-shirt was asked to change/turn it inside out.

That being said, only four people actually fit that description, so only four people were even asked.

Those four people were primed to continue the tradition from the previous year of trying to incite racial violence with other students.

So yeah. Four people. And my "lecture" was perfectly applicable, even if you can't see why.

Hey! Don't get all uppity and condescending as if you know everything! If you're going to be that way I'm not going to discuss anything with you!
So anyway how do we know for sure that those four were intending to try and incite racial violence etc. etc.? And what if there had been students who had no intention of getting involved with that nonsense, but just wanted to wear a shirt with the flag on it? Would they be punished along with those other douchbags too? And if so, does that seem right to you?
Trying to prevent racial violence is one thing, but hiding your own country's flag in your own country for fear of offending people is just ridiculous.

 

[Batou667]

well I just took Chinese history class, and holy sh*t, what.the.hell.England? Really? Opium in China? To resort to being a NATIONAL drug pusher is an extremely sh*tty thing to do.

...20 minutes on Wikipedia, and I've learned something today. Yup, that was a pretty inexcusable example of colonial exploitation.

Saying that North Ireland is a "clusterf*ck" doesn't excuse Englands involvement in the whole situation.

It wasn't meant to be an excuse, just an acknowledgement of what a complicated and muddied issue it is. If you want an example of how the difference between a terrorist and a freedom-fighter boils down to nothing more than your point of view, look no further than Ulster. It's kind of a pity that mainland Ireland didn't stay as part of the UK - but if a high enough proportion of Northern Ireland wanted to merge with Ireland, I say give them their damn land back. (Fact - Northern Ireland makes up only 3% of the UK's population - isn't that crazy?)

P.S. I'm not trying to condemn all of the English for the actions of the English government/elite.

Right, exactly. I think it's completely wrong to make English in general feel "guilty" for stuff they had no hand in - especially when these events happened long before anybody alive today was born. The sins of the father are NOT passed on to the son, isn't that a basic principle of modern justice? So why shouldn't modern-day, progressive, non-colonial and non-slave-owning English peole be proud to be English?

 

[manic_depressive13]

How about "Don't wear your nation's flag on your shirt, it makes you seem like a stupid nationalistic twat." This is why schools ought to have uniforms.

 

[SnootyEnglishman]

Here's more nails in the coffin that's contained Freedom of Speech.

 

[Vrach]

Well wearing your nation's flag on your shirt (or really, anywhere) is inflammatory and douchey in itself in my opinion, but that doesn't mean it should be prohibited anywhere by anything other than common sense and the fist of the nearest fellow nationalist of another country.

 

[Plazmatic]

Even though this happened on May 5th of this year, CNN just ran the article now, likely due to the legal proceedings taking so long.

A group of white students wearing T-Shirts bearing the American flag were asked to turn their shirts inside out due to the possibility it could have been inflammatory to the Mexican students at the school on Cinco de Mayo.

The students and their families sued the school on the grounds that their freedom of speech had been infringed and the Judge in Northern California sided with the school.


How do you feel about this?

Im my personal opinion, I believe that when wearing your nation's flag on your own soil becomes "inflammatory" and unacceptable, the problem is not with the students or the t-shirts or the flag, it is with the Judge and the schools. The thought that someone can immigrate from another country and have a holiday from that country (which in the case of Cinco de Mayo, the Mexicans in Mexico don't even really celebrate like we do in the U.S.) be grounds for their host country having to hide their flag, we have a problem on many levels. If I were to go to Great Britain and demand that the British flag be covered because it might offend me on the 4th of July, it would cause an uproar.


The article in question can be found here: http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/18/opinion/navarrette-t-shirt-controversy/

OP, you little liar, you misleading people, and by the looks of it, most people didn't even read your topic post, let alone the ACTUAL article. I was there a few years back when these little dumb f***s decided, since some Mexican student had put up their flag on cinco de mayo, they thought these students were "turning our gurdurn curntry in to meximerica!" and decided to put a american flag on a friggen tree and chant racial and anti mexican sentiments like "get back to the border" and "just because you made it to american doesn't mean you get to stay out of jail where you belong" as well as the "C" word which im not sure if I can say here. Then some fights after and during school broke out during the that day and the following days (I remember specifically in lunch some idiot walked up to a table with a group of hispanics and said "let me see your green card" and wouldn't stop pestering them, then he walked away and just called them abunch of "Ch****s" and walked back to his table, where all the members of the hispanics table came up and started beating him up, and the white guys friends had to help him, and soon it was an all out brawl with mexicans versus white people, however when the principle came they all dispersed and about 8 were suspended for 50 days.
This sort of stuff happened for days, until every one grew tired of it. then the next year, it happened AGAIN. I couldn't believe it, it wasn't the same circumstances exactally, but come cinco de mayo, everyone was fighting again. This time police got involved, but not before a couple, a mexican girl and a white guy, a got hurt, and all the administrators started getting REALLY strict. they expelled some people this time, and decided to make sure that no one started displaying thier "nationalism" (racism) on cinco de mayo, neither mexicans OR whites.

 

[thewaever]

OP, you little liar, you misleading people, and by the looks of it, most people didn't even read your topic post, let alone the ACTUAL article. I was there a few years back when these lit...snip...ot hurt, and all the administrators started getting REALLY strict. they expelled some people this time, and decided to make sure that no one started displaying thier "nationalism" (racism) on cinco de mayo, neither mexicans OR whites.

This is what I was trying to say, P. Thanks for giving us a first-hand description.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

well I just took Chinese history class, and holy sh*t, what.the.hell.England? Really? Opium in China? To resort to being a NATIONAL drug pusher is an extremely sh*tty thing to do.

...20 minutes on Wikipedia, and I've learned something today. Yup, that was a pretty inexcusable example of colonial exploitation.

Saying that North Ireland is a "clusterf*ck" doesn't excuse Englands involvement in the whole situation.

It wasn't meant to be an excuse, just an acknowledgement of what a complicated and muddied issue it is. If you want an example of how the difference between a terrorist and a freedom-fighter boils down to nothing more than your point of view, look no further than Ulster. It's kind of a pity that mainland Ireland didn't stay as part of the UK - but if a high enough proportion of Northern Ireland wanted to merge with Ireland, I say give them their damn land back. (Fact - Northern Ireland makes up only 3% of the UK's population - isn't that crazy?)

P.S. I'm not trying to condemn all of the English for the actions of the English government/elite.

Right, exactly. I think it's completely wrong to make English in general feel "guilty" for stuff they had no hand in - especially when these events happened long before anybody alive today was born. The sins of the father are NOT passed on to the son, isn't that a basic principle of modern justice? So why shouldn't modern-day, progressive, non-colonial and non-slave-owning English peole be proud to be English?

While I do strongly support the Irish Catholics (and I HATE the Orange Order), I guess it would be wrong to make you feel wrong about what *sshole moves the English government pulled. If I'm going to hold a grudge against anybody, it should be the government, not its people.