Don't wear the American Flag on your shirt in California schools, you might offend the Mexicans.

[Blend]

WTF happened, I read the first post and it's on America's infatuation with their flag and it ends with a discussion on Northern Ireland?!

OP, it seemed to me that, as usual in your country, The teachers were dramatically overreacting in asking the students to put their t-shirts inside out, the parents/students were dramatically overreacting by pursuing this legally as a breach of their freedom of expression and I'm hoping the Judge was just fed up and wanted them to get out of his court room.

Saying that North Ireland is a "clusterf*ck" doesn't excuse Englands involvement in the whole situation.

It wasn't meant to be an excuse, just an acknowledgement of what a complicated and muddied issue it is. If you want an example of how the difference between a terrorist and a freedom-fighter boils down to nothing more than your point of view, look no further than Ulster. It's kind of a pity that mainland Ireland didn't stay as part of the UK - but if a high enough proportion of Northern Ireland wanted to merge with Ireland, I say give them their damn land back. (Fact - Northern Ireland makes up only 3% of the UK's population - isn't that crazy?)

P.S. I'm not trying to condemn all of the English for the actions of the English government/elite.

Right, exactly. I think it's completely wrong to make English in general feel "guilty" for stuff they had no hand in - especially when these events happened long before anybody alive today was born. The sins of the father are NOT passed on to the son, isn't that a basic principle of modern justice? So why shouldn't modern-day, progressive, non-colonial and non-slave-owning English peole be proud to be English?

While I do strongly support the Irish Catholics (and I HATE the Orange Order), I guess it would be wrong to make you feel wrong about what *sshole moves the English government pulled. If I'm going to hold a grudge against anybody, it should be the government, not its people.

@ Batou667 I would say it was a huge improvement for the Irish people to gain freedom and self governance from the UK, how is it a pity?

I don't think there are many people who would want the English to feel guilty for their historical actions. But your modern-day, progressive country should attempt to make amends for its many past transgressions as well as simply officially apologise. I think the main reason things like that don't happen is it's not a good move for a politicians career and it may leave them open to having to pay something if they admit they have done something wrong.

I'm also curious as to what specifically people feel proud of when they feel proud to be their particular nationality. The geographical location of your birth? The involvement of your nation in current affairs or the accomplishments of your nation in the past.

The past generally has far more actions to be ashamed of and the current government always seems to be doing a terrible job at committing to any worthwhile action.

Personally I'm not proud to BE Irish, but I am proud of certain aspects of our culture, society and certain Irish people. I can appreciate this in other nations to but I only feel like I own the Irish ones.

 

[Frost27]

Even though this happened on May 5th of this year, CNN just ran the article now, likely due to the legal proceedings taking so long.

A group of white students wearing T-Shirts bearing the American flag were asked to turn their shirts inside out due to the possibility it could have been inflammatory to the Mexican students at the school on Cinco de Mayo.

The students and their families sued the school on the grounds that their freedom of speech had been infringed and the Judge in Northern California sided with the school.


How do you feel about this?

Im my personal opinion, I believe that when wearing your nation's flag on your own soil becomes "inflammatory" and unacceptable, the problem is not with the students or the t-shirts or the flag, it is with the Judge and the schools. The thought that someone can immigrate from another country and have a holiday from that country (which in the case of Cinco de Mayo, the Mexicans in Mexico don't even really celebrate like we do in the U.S.) be grounds for their host country having to hide their flag, we have a problem on many levels. If I were to go to Great Britain and demand that the British flag be covered because it might offend me on the 4th of July, it would cause an uproar.


The article in question can be found here: http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/18/opinion/navarrette-t-shirt-controversy/

OP, you little liar, you misleading people, and by the looks of it, most people didn't even read your topic post, let alone the ACTUAL article. I was there a few years back when these little dumb f***s decided, since some Mexican student had put up their flag on cinco de mayo, they thought these students were "turning our gurdurn curntry in to meximerica!" and decided to put a american flag on a friggen tree and chant racial and anti mexican sentiments like "get back to the border" and "just because you made it to american doesn't mean you get to stay out of jail where you belong" as well as the "C" word which im not sure if I can say here. Then some fights after and during school broke out during the that day and the following days (I remember specifically in lunch some idiot walked up to a table with a group of hispanics and said "let me see your green card" and wouldn't stop pestering them, then he walked away and just called them abunch of "Ch****s" and walked back to his table, where all the members of the hispanics table came up and started beating him up, and the white guys friends had to help him, and soon it was an all out brawl with mexicans versus white people, however when the principle came they all dispersed and about 8 were suspended for 50 days.
This sort of stuff happened for days, until every one grew tired of it. then the next year, it happened AGAIN. I couldn't believe it, it wasn't the same circumstances exactally, but come cinco de mayo, everyone was fighting again. This time police got involved, but not before a couple, a mexican girl and a white guy, a got hurt, and all the administrators started getting REALLY strict. they expelled some people this time, and decided to make sure that no one started displaying thier "nationalism" (racism) on cinco de mayo, neither mexicans OR whites.

First off, I never had any intention of misleading anyone. The information on the previous year's tensions was mentioned in my second post of the thread, which is the fourth overall. Granted yes, the title of the thread could be seen as inflamatory, it was never my intent to be misleading. I posted the article link in the first post with the intent that others could go and read it as well, if they did not, I am hardly to blame for that as I made the information available.

Second, I am actually very glad that we have a poster who was not only there when this happened, but involved in it to give another side as well as a more detailed description of what happened and is still happening. I do appreciate your input on this and I would like to know more regarding the underlying issue here.

While I don't expect you to read 13 pages of posts on the topic, I would like to know more regarding the actions of the white students involved. Were they neo nazi in nature or just generally racist? Did the hispanic students involved antagonize back or just try to go their own way? What happened that was not reported in the article? Was this something that had been ongoing prior to the first Cinco de Mayo incident?

 

[Something Amyss]

Honestly, I don't really care what any of the "issues" here were, wearing an American flag in an American school simply should not be a problem, ever.

That's utterly silly. And to further the silliness, you're saying that a flag used to strangle a student shouldn't be a problem, right?

But really, over-the-top example aside, using the flag to bull people is ok? Really?

 

[Something Amyss]

OP, you little liar, you misleading people, and by the looks of it, most people didn't even read your topic post, let alone the ACTUAL article.

Why be honest when you can ***** about political correctness and the evils of the anti-American sentiment?

 

[Char-Nobyl]

Hey! Don't get all uppity and condescending as if you know everything! If you're going to be that way I'm not going to discuss anything with you!

I said I was going over things slowly because that's exactly what I was doing. You didn't seem to understand my post the first time around, so I reiterated. It could have been lack of clarity on my part, or lack of understanding on yours, but the end result was the same.

So anyway how do we know for sure that those four were intending to try and incite racial violence etc. etc.?

Because the previous year, students had tried something similar, albeit not wearing conveniently identifiable T-shirts.

And what if there had been students who had no intention of getting involved with that nonsense, but just wanted to wear a shirt with the flag on it? Would they be punished along with those other douchbags too? And if so, does that seem right to you?

A purely hypothetical situation, but I'll address it anyway.

If anything, those students should be relieved. If they came into school wearing what amounted (that day) to the uniform for a white-supremacist movement, they'd be thankful administrators told them. If worse comes to worst, you don't want to accidentally be wearing the uniform of a side that you wouldn't want to be associated with on any other day.

Besides, if someone wears a T-shirt with a Buddhist luck symbol on it, he's not going to screech about his right to free speech and summon a lawyer when people (correctly) tell him that it looks like he's wearing a Swastika and it's the first day of Yom Kippur.

Trying to prevent racial violence is one thing, but hiding your own country's flag in your own country for fear of offending people is just ridiculous.

Italicized and emboldened for emphasis: I already know that. I've outright said that this isn't and was never an issue of "hiding your own country's flag" out of some political-correctness-gone-wrong mindset. These kids weren't wearing flags on their shirts out of a justifiable (albeit tacky) sense of patriotism. They were wearing them because they could bang on about free speech and gain support from knee-jerk reactions that think this is about immigrants forcing us to hide the American flag, which is something they couldn't get if they just worse T-shirts that said "Fuck Mexicans," which would have reflected the same sentiments.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

Well I do sympathize with you on this, I can't help but feel like England had it coming. After all of the bullsh*t that England has done in the past (which makes my government look like a saint), if there is some shame to be English, I don't think its a bad thing, its karma. I realize this may sound insensitive, but when there are still places like North Ireland, I stop feeling sympathy for the lack of English pride.

Whoa there. My father and uncle held up a Republic of Ireland flag behind Ian Pasely at a press conference, and I share most of his beliefs when it comes to the relationship between Northern Ireland and the Republic. England was guilty of some awful stuff, but that doesn't suddenly make the IRA any less of a terrorist organization, no matter how justified their motives for founding.

And what's this about 'karma'? Karma isn't selective, mate. It either exists or it doesn't. Cosmic forces that reward the good and punish the bad aren't something you can pick and choose where its applied.

A third-world dictator gets cancer? Karma. A beloved wife and mother gets caner? Unless you hold that the universe finds her just as guilty as that third-world despot, that disproves any concept of 'karma' easily. Not only that, but it takes credit from actual people when they do good for someone and it gets written off as 'good karma' for the recipient.

While I do strongly support the Irish Catholics (and I HATE the Orange Order), I guess it would be wrong to make you feel wrong about what *sshole moves the English government pulled. If I'm going to hold a grudge against anybody, it should be the government, not its people.

Then it's a pit that that's exactly what you're doing. Governments change all the time, and even then, they're always composed of people. If you hold a grudge against a government for grievances completely different people in similar positions committed decades (or more) ago, then you're a hypocrite.

well I just took Chinese history class, and holy sh*t, what.the.hell.England? Really? Opium in China? To resort to being a NATIONAL drug pusher is an extremely sh*tty thing to do.

Chinese history, eh? No sarcasm intended, that's interesting stuff. Though remember that the Opium Wars were in an era when opium was legal. The Chinese only banned it when addicts started to grow in number, and conflict broke out when they tried to force European merchants to surrender their legally purchased and own stock for non-reimbursed destruction.

But out of curiosity, did you also learn about the Boxer Rebellion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion]? Then again, it was about as much a 'rebellion' as the UK riots were a 'revolution.' In light of the growing influence of European powers, the Boxers (Chinese nationalist group) decided the best solution to this was to murder as many foreigners, especially missionaries, as they could.

Saying that North Ireland is a "clusterf*ck" doesn't excuse Englands involvement in the whole situation.

It also doesn't excuse the atrocities on either side. Even with England being the original aggressor, that doesn't justify retaliating with carbombs in urban areas. The IRA turned Belfast into a hellhole for years. If you asked a person in the early 90s and late 80s what the face of terrorism was, they would think of white people. Between the first WTC bombing, Ted Kaczynski, and the IRA, it wasn't an unreasonable assumption to make.

I never said England was the worse, I simply pointed out that England has done al ot of terrible things in history.

And that, by effect, they some how deserved to suffer consequences in the present era for the crimes of members of previous generations. How does that make sense?

Also, for places like China and India, it wasn't that long ago that England owned part/all of THEIR land.

So what? It was the British Empire. They're supposed to have foreign holdings.

P.S. I'm not trying to condemn all of the English for the actions of the English government/elite.

So what? You're still blaming English people for stuff that long-dead English people did because they shared a job title. That's just a more hypocritical kind of bigotry.

 

[tsb247]

*snip*

EDIT: Having read an account of someone who was actually there, there is no way I can defend the actions of the T-shirt wearing students. It's one thing to show national pride, it's something else to bully a different nationality.

 

[Lunar Templar]

I'm aware the CORRECT method for obtain legal citizen ship is a pain, but how many are even trying that route hmm ...

Not just "a pain." That implies that it's merely annoying to do, like having to fill out abnormally specific forms or something. And certainly, there are those involved.

But the main issue? It's not difficult at all to get rejected outright. And even if you can get into the country, actually getting citizenship is a whole 'nother mess. That's why people are willing to pay guides to help them cross the border somehow, even when that sum of money is a good deal more than whatever might be involved in the green card application.

your correct never been to one of those desert states -.- way to hot for my north westerner ass and given how many illegals are up here,

Spoiler

yes we have illegal immigrants of Mexican origin way the fuck up here. you know Forks? the same Forks talked about in the twilight books? a LOT of em live there.

the border patrols 'security' isn't doing a damn thing.

On the contrary: border patrol is better equipped than most police departments, at least as far as weapons go. In other words, the US/Mexican border is guarded by men with military-grade assault weapons...and these are men who specifically joined the border patrol. Besides, denouncing the failure of border patrol for the mere existence of illegal immigrants is like declaring 'police' to be a failed service because there are still criminals.

hey, I'm calling it as i see it

And guards aside, I've not even taken geography into account yet. Steep cliffs, fast rivers, etc...those are the sorts of things that we don't need to put walls near or even set up patrols by. If they're not impassable, they're very dangerous.

'very dangerous' clearly dose not bother border crossers, they will find the weak points and get through

just out of curiosity (since your profile doesn't state it) is the US even your country?

Really? Huh. Don't know how I missed that. Then again, I didn't put much work into my profile, so I guess that explains it.

To answer your question, yes, it is.

heh, i've noticed alot kinda slack off on it 'round these parts >.>. but your answer leads to my question, why are you siding with illegals?

 

[Hipsy_Gypsy]

Well I do sympathize with you on this, I can't help but feel like England had it coming. After all of the bullsh*t that England has done in the past (which makes my government look like a saint), if there is some shame to be English, I don't think its a bad thing, its karma. I realize this may sound insensitive, but when there are still places like North Ireland, I stop feeling sympathy for the lack of English pride.

Sorry, this really bothers me. It's Northern Ireland; it's been a separate country to the Republic of Ireland since the 20s. We do use the same currency as mainland UK after all.

OT: Mind you, yeah; we get a lot of that sort of thing here in Northern Ireland. Hell, just the way some people pronounce certain words can get you into bother. Part of the reasons why I can't wait to leave. I'm anything but proud of it most of the time. Sigh.

 

[Jadak]

Honestly, I don't really care what any of the "issues" here were, wearing an American flag in an American school simply should not be a problem, ever.

That's utterly silly. And to further the silliness, you're saying that a flag used to strangle a student shouldn't be a problem, right?

But really, over-the-top example aside, using the flag to bull people is ok? Really?

Let's not put that example aside. Yes, it's fine. Not the strangulation part of course, but do you really think such an extreme act is limited by a flag and wouldn't otherwise happen?

Is using a flag to bully people okay? No, but only on the basis that bullying people is not okay to begin with, not because a flag is involved.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

I'm aware the CORRECT method for obtain legal citizen ship is a pain, but how many are even trying that route hmm ...

Not just "a pain." That implies that it's merely annoying to do, like having to fill out abnormally specific forms or something. And certainly, there are those involved.

But the main issue? It's not difficult at all to get rejected outright. And even if you can get into the country, actually getting citizenship is a whole 'nother mess. That's why people are willing to pay guides to help them cross the border somehow, even when that sum of money is a good deal more than whatever might be involved in the green card application.

your correct never been to one of those desert states -.- way to hot for my north westerner ass and given how many illegals are up here,

Spoiler

yes we have illegal immigrants of Mexican origin way the fuck up here. you know Forks? the same Forks talked about in the twilight books? a LOT of em live there.

the border patrols 'security' isn't doing a damn thing.

On the contrary: border patrol is better equipped than most police departments, at least as far as weapons go. In other words, the US/Mexican border is guarded by men with military-grade assault weapons...and these are men who specifically joined the border patrol. Besides, denouncing the failure of border patrol for the mere existence of illegal immigrants is like declaring 'police' to be a failed service because there are still criminals.

hey, I'm calling it as i see it

...what? No you're not. You're calling as you want it to be.

'very dangerous' clearly dose not bother border crossers, they will find the weak points and get through

*sigh* If by "border crossers" you mean "people who succeeded in crossing the border," then yes, I suppose dangerous terrain doesn't bother them much. I imagine it bothers the people who die trying to get across, albeit only briefly. Then nothing bothers them ever again.

Did it get through at all that part of my point was that crossing the US Mexico border illegally is either expensive, dangerous, or a combination of the two? Crossing illegally isn't a choice that's taken lightly, nor is it one that's made for petty reasons.

heh, i've noticed alot kinda slack off on it 'round these parts >.>. but your answer leads to my question, why are you siding with illegals?

Probably because I'm both sympathetic and pragmatic. The former comes from understanding what I told you above: illegal immigrants don't risk their lives crossing the border because they were bored and thought an American job might be interesting. The fact that they're more than willing to take sub-minimum wage jobs even with groups banging on about how they (the immigrants) are money-draining parasites and companies exploiting their illegal status.

The latter (pragmatism) should appeal to even you, however. Here's a question of my own: why do you think companies like Walmart and whatnot hire illegal immigrants? They're cheap to pay for, of course, but we have minimum wage laws, so how is it that jobs that are supposed to just be paying minimum wage looking to illegals instead of citizens?

The simple answer is that it's people like you (and quite a few others I've responded to in this thread) who make hiring illegal immigrants profitable for companies. If you had actually thought about it, legislation that guarantees equal pay for illegal immigrants (difficult to put in words, perhaps, but possible) would actually end most incentives for companies to hire them. After all, the main appeal is that they can get away with breaking minimum-wage laws when paying them. Why risk hiring an illegal immigrant if you have to pay him/her as much as a citizen?

Even better if you couple that with harsh punishment for knowing employment of illegal immigrants. An infamous Walmart move was reporting illegal immigrants to the Department of Immigration a day or two before payday to cheat them out of a final paycheck. With two laws, you've just guaranteed that any company that hires illegal workers has to pay them as much as citizens and can't pull underhanded stuff like that without risking federal investigation.

*snip*

EDIT: Having read an account of someone who was actually there, there is no way I can defend the actions of the T-shirt wearing students. It's one thing to show national pride, it's something else to bully a different nationality.

I saw your unedited post, btw, seeing as any reply to a post of mine is forwarded to my inbox before any sort of edits take place. That being said, this is quite a turnaround. The post that I assume you refer to was basically a first-hand account of what I was saying was the issue, not some sort of "They won't let us show American flags near Mexicans" bullshit.

Kinda brings the story of doubting Thomas to mind.

 

[Lunar Templar]

I'm aware the CORRECT method for obtain legal citizen ship is a pain, but how many are even trying that route hmm ...

Not just "a pain." That implies that it's merely annoying to do, like having to fill out abnormally specific forms or something. And certainly, there are those involved.

But the main issue? It's not difficult at all to get rejected outright. And even if you can get into the country, actually getting citizenship is a whole 'nother mess. That's why people are willing to pay guides to help them cross the border somehow, even when that sum of money is a good deal more than whatever might be involved in the green card application.

your correct never been to one of those desert states -.- way to hot for my north westerner ass and given how many illegals are up here,

Spoiler

yes we have illegal immigrants of Mexican origin way the fuck up here. you know Forks? the same Forks talked about in the twilight books? a LOT of em live there.

the border patrols 'security' isn't doing a damn thing.

On the contrary: border patrol is better equipped than most police departments, at least as far as weapons go. In other words, the US/Mexican border is guarded by men with military-grade assault weapons...and these are men who specifically joined the border patrol. Besides, denouncing the failure of border patrol for the mere existence of illegal immigrants is like declaring 'police' to be a failed service because there are still criminals.

hey, I'm calling it as i see it

...what? No you're not. You're calling as you want it to be.

XD and you get to be wrong, it IS what i see up here, get over it

'very dangerous' clearly dose not bother border crossers, they will find the weak points and get through

*sigh* If by "border crossers" you mean "people who succeeded in crossing the border," then yes, I suppose dangerous terrain doesn't bother them much. I imagine it bothers the people who die trying to get across, albeit only briefly. Then nothing bothers them ever again.

Did it get through at all that part of my point was that crossing the US Mexico border illegally is either expensive, dangerous, or a combination of the two? Crossing illegally isn't a choice that's taken lightly, nor is it one that's made for petty reasons.

i picked that bit up, but then one should have some pause when your about to knowingly break another country's laws, regardless of the reason.

heh, i've noticed alot kinda slack off on it 'round these parts >.>. but your answer leads to my question, why are you siding with illegals?

Probably because I'm both sympathetic and pragmatic. The former comes from understanding what I told you above: illegal immigrants don't risk their lives crossing the border because they were bored and thought an American job might be interesting. The fact that they're more than willing to take sub-minimum wage jobs even with groups banging on about how they (the immigrants) are money-draining parasites and companies exploiting their illegal status.

The latter (pragmatism) should appeal to even you, however. Here's a question of my own: why do you think companies like Walmart and whatnot hire illegal immigrants? They're cheap to pay for, of course, but we have minimum wage laws, so how is it that jobs that are supposed to just be paying minimum wage looking to illegals instead of citizens?

The simple answer is that it's people like you (and quite a few others I've responded to in this thread) who make hiring illegal immigrants profitable for companies. If you had actually thought about it, legislation that guarantees equal pay for illegal immigrants (difficult to put in words, perhaps, but possible) would actually end most incentives for companies to hire them. After all, the main appeal is that they can get away with breaking minimum-wage laws when paying them. Why risk hiring an illegal immigrant if you have to pay him/her as much as a citizen?

define 'people like me', and choose your words carefully, i don't suffer insults well. (other then that, see below)

Even better if you couple that with harsh punishment for knowing employment of illegal immigrants. An infamous Walmart move was reporting illegal immigrants to the Department of Immigration a day or two before payday to cheat them out of a final paycheck. With two laws, you've just guaranteed that any company that hires illegal workers has to pay them as much as citizens and can't pull underhanded stuff like that without risking federal investigation.

(glad i don't shop at Wallmart anymore)

o.0 ok you got me there, i hadn't thought about those laws as a deterrent to hire illegals. rather i saw it as more 'you broke our laws to get here? awesome have a benefits package and keep leeching off the system' so I'll concede to that -.- your still not gonna get me to change my mind on the rest though

 

[Char-Nobyl]

XD and you get to be wrong, it IS what i see up here, get over it

Oh, so you've seen every immigrant that tries to cross the border escape the clutches of border patrols? Because that seems to be the only way you can assume that the border patrol is an utter failure at its job.

Similarly, what makes you say that your area is riddled with illegal immigrants? Is there some sort of census for it, or what?

i picked that bit up, but then one should have some pause when your about to knowingly break another country's laws, regardless of the reason.

...that's what I just said. They do put thought into it. It isn't a rebuttal to say, "Yeah, that's right! They should," as if that's somehow contrary to what I said.

define 'people like me', and choose your words carefully, i don't suffer insults well. (other then that, see below)

People who think that illegal immigrants aren't entitled to any protection by US law, particularly in the workplace.

...what, what did you think I meant when I first said that?

(glad i don't shop at Wallmart anymore)

o.0 ok you got me there, i hadn't thought about those laws as a deterrent to hire illegals. rather i saw it as more 'you broke our laws to get here? awesome have a benefits package and keep leeching off the system' so I'll concede to that

It's actually the exact opposite: since most places don't pay workers in cash, illegal immigrants still have to pay taxes, a fair chunk of which goes into social security. And since they're working off a fake SS number if they're at that point, it's literally the opposite of what you painted it as. They pay proportionally more money into the system than a citizen with the exact same job simply because they're contributing money that a citizen would get back later as social security.

-.- your still not gonna get me to change my mind on the rest though

Such as...? Give me a list to work off.

 

[Lunar Templar]

XD and you get to be wrong, it IS what i see up here, get over it

Oh, so you've seen every immigrant that tries to cross the border escape the clutches of border patrols? Because that seems to be the only way you can assume that the border patrol is an utter failure at its job.

Similarly, what makes you say that your area is riddled with illegal immigrants? Is there some sort of census for it, or what?

no official census but they aren't really hard to spot, picking out people up here is like hiding a white guy in a crowd of black people :/ sad as it is, we could more color up here, i shouldn't be surprised to see a black person walking down the street -.-

define 'people like me', and choose your words carefully, i don't suffer insults well. (other then that, see below)

People who think that illegal immigrants aren't entitled to any protection by US law, particularly in the workplace.

...what, what did you think I meant when I first said that?

not sure, it just sounded really insulting for some reason.

-.- your still not gonna get me to change my mind on the rest though

Such as...? Give me a list to work off.

me seeing them as anything other then a massive thorn in this country's side, or seeing them as anything other then a criminal, after all if they're willing to break one law, how many others could be deemed ignorable? (again it sounds worse then it is)

on that your fighting 30 years of 'upbringing' and good luck with that. and before you go trying to pick that apart ... -.- again ...

Spoiler

1) I'm not this racist asshole you might think, >.> mostly. reason my first post sounded like it is cause i find unacceptable our country's flag is 'offensive' to a group of people living WITH IN ITS BORDERS, my reply would have been simalarly abrasive regardless of the groups color, and I'd have still taken the cheap shot i did. (only minority i don't actually have a lot of love for isn't even mentioned in this thread, and i've got more valid reason for not liking them)

2) i actually do get the 'why' of why they want to come over, Mexico is in a massive state of 'fucked' with no indication its going to get better short of carpet bombing and a liberal use of assassinations. so I'm not against the idea of some one form another country coming here to start over, it was fucking FOUNDED on the ideal, my problem is that they doing illegally, which again, applys to anybody of any color, not just Mexicans.