Don't wear the American Flag on your shirt in California schools, you might offend the Mexicans.

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TorqueConverter

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Oh yeah, I wore a Gravity Kills T-shirt the day of the 9/11 attacks. I and another person wearing a shirt with a plane on it received flak as if my taste in music and his wardrobe malfunction were malicious in intent. These things happen and even if the intent is not genuinely malicious, you must have the common sense to be polite enough to turn your shirt inside out with or without being asked by a school figure.
 

WeAreStevo

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Frost27 said:
Apparently it stemed from an incident last year where a group of Mexican students walked around campus carrying a Mexican flag and a group of American students hung a makeshift American flag and began chanting "USA,USA" the Mexicans became "offended" and as the article says "...tensions flared and the two groups faced off with profanity and threats".
Well...seeing as this was the American students response, I can only imagine the reason behind wearing a American Flag shirt, and why several students just "happened" to wear it on Cinco De Mayo.

Now, I am not saying that they are correct, but I feel that the students who wore the shirts are not 100% innocent in this debacle.

Plus, in today's society where you could be sued for pretty much anything, I'm sure the school was acting in a precautionary manner.
 

MagicMouse

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It's California, what can you do? They are the most anti-US government in North America.

*shrugs*

But schools are schools and they need to react specifically to their students. Since it was a problem before, they needed to do something.
 

WeAreStevo

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TorqueConverter said:
Oh yeah, I wore a Gravity Kills T-shirt the day of the 9/11 attacks. I and another person wearing a shirt with a plane on it received flak as if my taste in music and his wardrobe malfunction were malicious in intent. These things happen and even if the intent is not genuinely malicious, you must have the common sense to be polite enough to turn your shirt inside out with or without being asked by a school figure.
Totally.

I wore a trench coat to school the day after Colombine and I got searched by the police on the way into school. I also was told that I could not wear it on school grounds.

Hell, more recently while in England coming back to the US my friend was asked to turn his Vandals shirt inside out because it had a picture of an AK-47. They said it would possibly "incite violence."

This kind of stuff happens all the time. I didn't complain, I understood why they were upset. I think people just hear "Mexican" and get completely bent out of shape
 

WeAreStevo

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MagicMouse said:
It's California, what can you do? They are the most anti-US government in North America.

*shrugs*

But schools are schools and they need to react specifically to their students. Since it was a problem before, they needed to do something.
Really? We are? That's news to me and I live in the most liberal part of California...

Facts or it didn't happen.
 

smithy_2045

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Do the kids ever choose to wear American flags on any other day? Because if this is the only time the do it, it's pretty obvious they only chose to do so to piss off the Mexican kids, and therefore are clearly in the wrong.
 

Artheval_Pe

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Fagotto said:
SilentCom said:
Lolwut? You have any actual proof, or is this you just displaying your amazing mind reading powers again? Because I'd sure love to know how the hell you got that motive out of celebrating a single holiday. Yes, celebrating Cinco de Mayo is totally about going over American culture. Because it's totally a sacred day to Americans.
Well, as far as this thing goes, even if I do not like it, I can explain it. Being a US citizen and seing mexican people waiving around their flag can make you wonder "Why are they doing this ? Is it because they don't like the US that they are so proud of their flag ?". It can make you insecure if you are a little-bit simple-minded, which can lead you to the stupid nationalism that the students expressed the previous year.

But :
-First: people need to learn to live with foreigners and to cope with different cultures. And teaching these american kids in a rational manner (i.e. not just by telling them to change T-shirts) to not be too proud of their country in the wrong circonstances could have been a good thing.
-Second: context is everything. Waiving around foreign flags in the streets in the US can be misunderstood and indeed wrongly viewed as anti-american, so it's a bad idea. But in the case of the said school which was apparently an international school, it seems fair to me to be able to do such a thing without anyone feeling threatened or taking offense. And wearing T-shirts with US flags in this specific context seems really like a way to stir up trouble.
 

MagicMouse

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WeAreStevo said:
MagicMouse said:
It's California, what can you do? They are the most anti-US government in North America.

*shrugs*

But schools are schools and they need to react specifically to their students. Since it was a problem before, they needed to do something.
Really? We are? That's news to me and I live in the most liberal part of California...

Facts or it didn't happen.
That's my opinion, not a "fact". If it was a fact I would have cited it, of that you can be sure.

Though, you cannot deny that when it comes to making laws that contradict the Constitution, they are top dog, at least as far as States go.
 

Warforger

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Frost27 said:
Even though this happened on May 5th of this year, CNN just ran the article now, likely due to the legal proceedings taking so long.
Dude I heard about it when it was new.

Frost27 said:
The students and their families sued the school on the grounds that their freedom of speech had been infringed and the Judge in Northern California sided with the school.
I thought minors had few rights especially in schools? Not even the ones in the const. apply to them.

Frost27 said:
How do you feel about this?

Im my personal opinion, I believe that when wearing your nation's flag on your own soil becomes "inflammatory" and unacceptable, the problem is not with the students or the t-shirts or the flag, it is with the Judge and the schools. The thought that someone can immigrate from another country and have a holiday from that country (which in the case of Cinco de Mayo, the Mexicans in Mexico don't even really celebrate like we do in the U.S.) be grounds for their host country having to hide their flag, we have a problem on many levels. If I were to go to Great Britain and demand that the British flag be covered because it might offend me on the 4th of July, it would cause an uproar.
That's the weird thing. It doesn't make any sense to me either since for one hoisting a French flag would be intentionally pissing people off while the argument for why the holiday is relevant in the US is because since during the time the French were invading Mexico the US was engaged in the Civil War, the argument was that the French were going to use Mexico to support the CSA (since they were hit hard by the cotton embargo and they liked the aristocratic social structure in the CSA more, plus the Union was a huge trading opponent ) so that's why the battle of Cinco De Mayo in the Pueblo province is related to the US, but even then it didn't stop the French from taking Mexico for a brief period before finally leaving after the Civil War was over. So if that's the argument FOR Cinco De Mayo then hoisting an American flag should be just as appropriate as hoisting a Mexican one.

In Mexico it's mainly celebrated in that province where the battle occurred (not sure I got the right name though), in America my Spanish teacher (who is a native born Mexican)pretty much says that it's just a holiday to bring forth Mexican stuff and boost the sales of such.

MagicMouse said:
That's my opinion, not a "fact". If it was a fact I would have cited it, of that you can be sure.

Though, you cannot deny that when it comes to making laws that contradict the Constitution, they are top dog, at least as far as States go.
Pffft, then Congress is even worse.
 

Robert Ewing

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You know it's a sad day when even the Americans get flamed for being proud of their country. Nobody can do anything anymore without fear of offending somebody.
 

Andothul

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Are you telling me i can't wear my Gryffindor shirt because some Slytherins might get upset. WHAT HAS THIS WORLD COME TO????!!!
 

Torrasque

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Frost27 said:
Agreed.
It seems most people consider any holiday ever is an excuse for most people to drink heavily. Especially South American holidays =|
Your analogy summed it up pretty well.
At first, I thought this thread would be about some kid getting ketchup on his american flag t-shirt, which would be seen as slapping George Washington and every other President, but when I read that it was about this? This is just more political correctness being stupid fucking political correctness.
Patrick_and_the_ricks said:
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Relevant to this thread:
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I love this video so much, it is relevant in so many damned threads.
 

Therumancer

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Vault Citizen said:
The previous year, in 2009, a group of Mexican students marked the holiday by walking around campus holding a Mexican flag. A group of white students responded by hanging a makeshift American flag from a tree and chanting "USA." According to the Chronicle, tensions flared and the two groups faced off with profanity and threats.

Little wonder that when some students showed up at school wearing T-shirts with American flags on them administrators decided to err on the side of caution.
It sounds like the school was just trying to avoid violence.

If there is going to be violence over wearing the flag of your own country inside your own country then this is itself is a problem. The students who are violent, threatening violence, or even just implying it, are the ones that need to be dealt with. What's more if your dealing with people visiting this country, or having sought/obtained citizenship here and are offended they should be slung back over the border, or even just flat out exiled if they were born here.

This gets to the root of cultural assimilation, and our problems with it. Basically we have people coming into the US who want to draw the benefits of US citizenship, but do not actually want to be Americans.

In the US the left wing has gotten so out of control in defending "civil liberties" that it has lost sight of common sense. Things having moved from protecting what might be quirky customs or the quiet observation of foreign traditions, to the right to speak only a foreign language, and now to force everyone in the US to adapt if someone who comes here from another country is offended by the flag of our country. This is what you call "snowballing" and it's a common problem, what starts out fairly reasonable gradually builds up into utter insanity one precedent at a time.

I can see why the courts made the ruling that they did, after all with all of the other precedents established over a period of time, such as saying you have to adapt to someone who doesn't want to speak English or whatever, it gives weight to arguements by immigrants having the right to force everyone to adapt to their whims, and to be offended by something like The American flag. After all we've established the precedent that you don't have to be culturally American, or even support the country to live here, draw benefits, and even have a say in how the goverment operates.

I might not be articulating this well, but it's one of the big reasons why I oppose a lot of civil issues on principle, even if I might agree with what the people promoting those issues are trying to accomplish. I very much concerned about where such things wind up going in the long term. Oftentimes leading to the perception of me being racist, bigoted, misogynistic, or whatever else. You can point to cases of The American Flag being effectively banned in the US (even if just in schools) as an example of exactly why you need to be careful about civil matters no matter how well intentioned.

While fairly hardcore, I do believe we need a mechanism by which citizenship can be removed from immigrants, until a few generations down the road. It's one of the only ways any kind of "common sense" modifications to civil libertiess are going to work. Basically my attitude is that if someone is offended by the flag of their own country they don't belong in that country drawing the benefits of the taxpayers for things like a free education. I don't care if people want to honor the heritage of their forefathers or whatever, but when it goes as far as being offended or violent at the depiction of what is their own flag (being citizens) that is a problem.

Now yes, rounding up a bunch of people who are upset over the US Flag and sending them back to poverty in Mexico might sound harsh, but at the same time I see no reason why we should be tolerating this. What's more when dealing with people born in the US who are raised that way, exiling them might seem even more harsh, but at the same time there is no reason why we should have to deal with that either. As far as I'm concerned dumping them out on an island someplace and saying "there are peopl ehere, anyone who wants them as citizens can come and get them" isn't entirely inappropriate, after all if nobody wants them, why should we? Yeah, anyone who hates on the country they were born in that way is "damaged goods" to the point where I honestly am becoming low on sympathy.


There is also a connected side issue here, where students have been declined the full rights of adults within the school system, intended to cut down on gang violence and so on. This was a bad idea at the time and feeds into this entire problem. After all if the schools can't selectivly ban people from wearing gang-affiliated or crime-associated clothing or whatever for civil rights reasons, it was instead put into a position of more blanket bans that didn't single anything out. With the right to protest that taken away, it's become possible for the school system to ban things like the US flag for the same reason, of avoiding violence of a differant type.... again not well articulated, but another side of the entire issue.

When it comes to civil liberties putting the genie back into the bottle is never easy, and almost always comes at the expense of a lot of nastiness. In this case we're seeing a situation where ironically those protections on free expression are being used to oppress free expression as we've created an enviroment where a minority of people (overall) who feel the US flag offends the spirit of a foreign holiday have the system on their side.

The failure of the court system, and I can see why things turned out rhe way they did with these prcedents, should make this a major national concern. Of course to be brutally honest with so many left wingers in power, I can't really see there being a crackdown here. Maybe I'll be proven wrong in the long term but I can't see Barak Obama throwing his weight behind the needed reforms to ensure Americans can wear their own flag in school. He doesn't pass laws but the opinion of The President can have a major effect on such things.
 

darkman80723

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Jul 1, 2009
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My school did something like that to me, next day I went wearing a swastika. Lesser of two evils, they let me wear my US shirt again with no troubles =)
 

Monty McDougal

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Mar 15, 2011
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and people say religion causes all the problem. Though, it seems a lot of these problems stem from people not related trying to stop it, but in this case(even though they did it wrong) the school was just trying to stop a rehash from before.


Is anyone even going to read this after 7 pages?