Double Trailer Sci Fi Special: Star Trek: Picard and Terminator Dark Fate.

[Trunkage]

Here's a question: does anyone think B5 had a better executed ending than DS9?

Are we talking about the last episode or how everything wrapped up? Because, if its the former, B5 wins with both series finales. The last episode of DS9 felt like all Star Trek finales - rushed, unearned and out of nowhere cures all to everyone ills. DS9 might be less on the latter, as there was some lead up, particularly with Damar. But Gul Dukat ending was silly to me.

 

[Thaluikhain]

But this is the episode where they actually tried fighting. Every other cast member could cough and kill thousands of them. It completely negates any sense of threat from the Jem'Hadar when they are so easy to beat.

Yeah, there was a lot of that sort of thing, good ideas, but fatally flawed.

For example, the two parter where they go to Earth to explain the threat of the Dominion and get the politicians to listen and put security measures in place. At first nobody takes them seriously, but later people start listening. And then conspirators decide to stage a coup, not so much to be evil, but in the belief that an extreme, militaristic society is the only way to beat the Dominion. Ok, fine, you could make a good story about the right balance between freedom and security.

Only, the story ends with the decision that the morally correct thing to do is absolutely nothing. No changes at all, no increased security, because if the Federation adapts in any way to meet the threat of the Dominion, they've already lost. Our only hope is that the Dominion are at least as ridiculously useless as we are.

Now, all series have stories like that, it took TNG til series three to get going, it took Voyager about til series five or six to sorta get going. DS9 never got started in it's 7 series run. Again, IMHO.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Character flaws that build up over time, that these flaws actually feel hard to overcome and might not take one episode, stories that move the season or character plot forward and/or build the mythology, the characters actually losing, factions having multiple interactions with each other in each season, subtlety changing the way that characters act that makes sense. Like, when Sheridan was pointed out that he used to be fun but now was dour through the weight of war and that had changed slowly over 2 seasons without me noticing? That's good story telling....

Okay, so you're basically just posting to blow the B5 trumpet and bash Trek. You know what, I like B5 too, but I don't feel a compulsive need to show it by shitting on Trek or DS9. This is why, despite liking B5, I really, really don't like B5 fans.

For example, the two parter where they go to Earth to explain the threat of the Dominion and get the politicians to listen and put security measures in place. At first nobody takes them seriously, but later people start listening. And then conspirators decide to stage a coup, not so much to be evil, but in the belief that an extreme, militaristic society is the only way to beat the Dominion. Ok, fine, you could make a good story about the right balance between freedom and security.

Homefront/Paradise Lost. And, you're mis-characterizing the episode.

The Founders' entire plot was simply to show their presence, cause the Federation to over-react, and tear itself apart in civil war. That was made clear in the second episode, as thanks to the false flag attack public support was overwhelmingly in favor of drastic security measures, and a Starfleet shake-up would cause major unrest. The only violent thing the Founders may or may not have done in the episode was bomb the Federation-Romulan talks. Leyton did exactly what the Founders intended to happen.

In the end, Starfleet did adopt the proscribed security measures, but no more. You see them in action in later episodes. The thesis of the argument is fear alone is dangerous, and can be weaponized. The only winning response to that is moderation.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

The Dominion are a bunch galactic conquerors with God complexes - no more interesting or nuanced than the Goa'uld of Stargate fame except Stargate realized the best way to use such characters was the make them as over the top as possible and Star Trek didn't. Had the war with the Alpha Quadrant started because the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar combined assault force actually succeeded in giving them a bloody nose and their many (unseen) subjects begun to question their Godhood that would be compelling.

No, the Founders are a bunch of galactic conquerors with God complexes. The Dominion is the more complex result of that and their more particular practical, political, ethical, and aesthetic choices. Whereas the Centauri are a decadent imperialist monarchy that could be basically any successful Earth empire. In space.

There's nothing wrong with that; a lot can be done with such a basic archetype. But it's not terrifically interesting in itself. Much like you can do cool things with someone performing spirituality even if that spirituality is the most boring, safe mush imaginable (G'Kar).

Here's a question: does anyone think B5 had a better executed ending than DS9?

Had the war with the Alpha Quadrant started because the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar combined assault force actually succeeded in giving them a bloody nose and their many (unseen) subjects begun to question their Godhood that would be compelling.

I can agree with that. Missed opportunity, perhaps. (Would hasten to add that it would also close off or lessen the impact of some of the elements they actually did do. Weyoun's fawning over Odo, for example.)

Sleeping in Light is one of the best finales of any television show I have ever seen. The best Trek finale is All Good Things for my money, mainly because I love the way it called back to Encounter at Farpoint with Q concluding the trial. And it was nice to see Picard join the poker game.

 

[Trunkage]

Character flaws that build up over time, that these flaws actually feel hard to overcome and might not take one episode, stories that move the season or character plot forward and/or build the mythology, the characters actually losing, factions having multiple interactions with each other in each season, subtlety changing the way that characters act that makes sense. Like, when Sheridan was pointed out that he used to be fun but now was dour through the weight of war and that had changed slowly over 2 seasons without me noticing? That's good story telling....

Okay, so you're basically just posting to blow the B5 trumpet and bash Trek. You know what, I like B5 too, but I don't feel a compulsive need to show it by shitting on Trek or DS9. This is why, despite liking B5, I really, really don't like B5 fans.

1. I went onto to compliment Star Trek in the very next paragraph 2. B5 serves a desire I have. Star Trek generally doesn't. I'm not sorry about it and I'm going to point what I like out. 3. What was it that offended you here compared to other B5 lovers here? Becuase Gordon said the actors were better on B5 but that didnt cuase this reaction. 4. I thought I've been complimenting DS9 heaps in this thread.

But then I get suprised all the time when people shit all over Discovery. It's a bunch ot stand alone situations that got stitched. And don't necessarily resolve at the end of each episode. I can understand why people dont think it's 'real Star Trek'. I just dont get offended when they do say this.

 

[Hawki]

This is why, despite liking B5, I really, really don't like B5 fans.

But I'm a B5 fan...