Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2: The Conversation Wheel

[Eclectic Dreck]

If we are simply discussing the problem with the wheel itself and nothing else associated with it, then the problem is that rather than having an explicit statement that your character will say verbatim, there is only room to give the gist of the comment. This has the potential, if circumstances are right, for the player to choose an option and getting an unexpected result.

Any other complaint regarding a wheel that I have seen has no merit over a list save those of preference. There are plenty of complaints regarding things associated with but not caused by the wheel system and these are also perfectly valid. For example, one might think that the game was written with all the skill and style that a six year old could muster.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I think its pretty relevant when you compare the two pics and see how much the "outdated" system destroys the fancy pants new voiced dialogue in terms of being faithful to roleplaying.

The modern expectation that dialog be voice acted is the cause of the discrepancy you mention more than anything else. Writing a new line of dialog is trivial. Hiring an actor to read the dialog while an engineer records it and other people insert it into the game (along with other little things) is somewhat more difficult.

The problem with the Convo-wheel is that EVERY dialog option hast to fit into one of the slots.

Even if we assume this to be true (which is only true in that it is what the game in question uses rather than an inherent rule of the system), your argument does not work. The wheel is simply a mechanism for presenting information. A list is precisely the same thing. If we applied the same restriction inherent in the wheel to a list (that an option in slot one is good, in slot 2 is neutral, in slot 3 is evil etc), the same problem arises. Even with these restrictions, there is nothing (beyond user convenience) that keeps us from displaying an arbitrary number of options, even if the user would have to do a great deal of work to actually see what they all were.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

I'm not a fan of the conversation wheel, at all. I liked that at least in Origina I knew exactly what my character was going to say and I picked my speech choices on reflex, choosing the one that immediately jumped out as sounding like something I would say.

I've found with the conversation wheel I just go for the humour because I don't want to wind up as Kirkwall's resident asshole or saint; I want to be a believable character.

Still, I wish more would do what The Witcher did. Have our option be exactly what Geralt will say, and have him speak it.

Honestly The Witcher has the best dialogue system I've seen in any game. The dialogue choices are always sensible answers to questions and dilemmas and there are no obvious moral implications with the options.

Spoiler: First major quest

I mean one of the best examples is when you have to face the angry mob after saving Alvin. After collecting all of the information and evidence you need there seems to be no decisive evidence whether or not Abigail or Mikul, Odo and the Reverand are at fault. You then have to make clear, concise decisions based on what you have found out.

Plus Geralt has a fucking awesome voice...

 

[Harb]

First of all, I'd like to point out the Conversation Wheel was the deal breaker for me.

I understand (Bioware's logic) why it has shown up in DA2. People have been praising it in ME&ME2. However, what Bioware missed is that in ME it worked as a part of the whole and sometimes you can't just strip one thing from working game, put it in another and expect it to work. ME has very strong character and storyline, supported by movie grain as well as outstanding voice acting of female Sheppard which allowed me to enjoy the game in "cinematic" way and I accepted that (I will 100% buy ME3).

However what Bioware missed is that people weren't buying DA:O because of conversation wheel in ME (at least I wasn't). If I look back at DA:O, it's pretty much a generic RPG (elves, dwarfs, big apocalypse, ect.), but it reminded me so much old RPGs (Planescape: Torment, Mask of the Betrayer, KotOR, Icewind Dale) that I was able to enjoy it.


For me good RPG is evaluated by the degree I can link and embrace the character I play (it's Role Playing game afterall). Some games do it through atmosphere (Fallout), story (Planescape: Torment), dialogues with party characters (Mask of the Betrayer), ect.
With the dialog wheel, I no longer have the direct control over what the character would say, giving me "the cinematic experience". And in cinema, how often do put yourselves in one's place? More ofter people are spectators, granted, on the scene, but still just spectators, stripping away the role playing part.

Dialogues have always been core part of every good RPG, allowing people to decide exactly how would THEY answer (the picture posted above is sadly so true) through diversity and often surprising options. Hell I remember myself going through the conversation with Ravel about 7 or 8 times the first run, just to understand and try everything.

Since the conversation wheel no longer offers what I listed above, for me personally the game is no longer a RPG, but more like "Action Cinematic Game". And for similar experience I could just go to cinema with my friends and enjoy it more.
Saying that, I will be very, very cautious (and maybe upset) every time I see the conversation wheel in any other game.

 

[Angstysquirrel]

why all the hate on the conversation wheel? I think it's great! In Dragon Age 1 there were enough instances where I would say something and people would LITERALLY IGNORE IT!

that bothered me immensely, aren't I the protagonist? Shouldn't I have some kind of weight to throw around here? My advice or comments should at least be acknowledged by the NPC's. The only time they would look at me is when I'd say something outragous.

The problem with the Convo-wheel is that EVERY dialog option hast to fit into one of the slots.
Top for good
Middle for neutral * or funny in Dragon age 2 * or stupid in Mass Effect
Bottom for evil

In Dragon Age Origins the thought behind the option you picked was up to you. Especially because there wasn't voice over for the Warden, you got to choose the tone and inflection to.

for example the part in the Circle Tower where you meet the desire demon and the Templar.
Did you let her go because you're an evil bastard that want's to help demons?
Did you let her go because you were convinced that she was a good demon and thought she deserved a chance?
Did you kill her because she was toying with the Templar's emotions and that's not right?
Did you kill her because you don't want that Templar to be happy?

If that was reduced to a Convo-wheel and "Let her go" was the top option and you were being evil you'd kill her even if you wanted to let her go so she could continue being a demon.

Are you killing Blood Mages because the Chantry's right?
Are you killing them because they attacked you and don't deserve mercy?
Do you let them go because they can atone for their sins?
Do you let them go so they can reek havoc somewhere else?

How about the Dalish Elf mission?
Kill the wolves because you gave the elves your word?
Kill the wolves because the elves need help?
Kill the wolves because they're all filthy rapists?
Cure the wolves because they've suffered enough?
Cure the wolves because the Elven Keeper has been lying to you?
Cure the wolves because it's the happy middle ground?
Help the elves because you want skilled archers on your team?
Kill the elves because the wolves received an unjust punishment?
Kill the elves because the elves were jerks when you first arrived?
Kill the elves because Werewolves can kick more darkspawn ass?
and that's not even half the possible outcomes to that mission.

How would you put that into a convo-wheel?

cure the wolves on top?
Kill the wolves in the middle?
kill the elves on bottom?

Kill the wolves because they're rapists on top?
Kill the elves because they're liars in the middle?
Attack before the Lady of the Forest finishes telling her side of the story on the bottom?

the convo-wheel limits the paths you can take.

Mass Effect 2

Do you blow up the Heretics because fuck 'em?
Do you rewrite the Heretics because you want the Geth to owe you one?
Do you rewrite because the Heretics deserve a second chance?
Do you blow them up because it's kinder than taking away their free will? (I think blowing them up is the Paragon option but Bioware disagrees. Thus my Paragon Shepard gets Renegade points for doing what she thought was right.)

If that was presented like DA:O and "rewrite" and "destroy" were just two different options instead of a good choice and a bad choice it's more open to allow the player to think for them self instead of letting them take the easy way out and blindly pick the top option the whole time.

it's all up to you and your own feelings.
Dragon Age Origins is almost infinity re-playable. Dragon Age 2 (I suspect) will be less re-playable. But I haven't even finished it the first time yet.

TLDRConvo-wheels put a predetermined "Good" or "Evil" connotation attached to any of the decisions. With out them every thing you say is left up to you to interpret. Like a ROLE PLAYING GAME SHOULD BE!!

This summarizes my hate for the wheel. I understand that if you can't afford an HD TV and can't read the text and therefor like the wheel, but I can't stand the damn thing.

 

[Buizel91]

It's a wheel, wooooo -.- i think they work fine, i mean seriously it's not exactly a game breaker.

Origins had about 4-5 choices to pick usually 2 good ones, 1 bad one, and one sarcastic one.

now it's 3-4 (depending if investigation is there, which opens more conversation) which is hardly a set back.

New dragon Age 2 thread in 10... ^_^

 

[kuyo]

Yeah, the ability in DA2 to see when you would be flirting with someone is a godsend. Shepard hit on everyone.

Even Jack to my dismay. Stupid conversations.

Turned her down right quick. They need to warn me that just starting a conversation and being polite will lead to that. Could not refuse fast enough.

Agreed. Friendly/polite =/= interest in a person in a sexual/relationship way.
Hey! I chose Jack. I had that reaction to Miranda and Kelly.

Did not intend to insult your choice in.......uh......women.

Atleast Miranda gave signs early on (like right after the loyalty mission) that she was getting interested; gave me a red flag to stop there, and I did not regret being nice to her. But Jack just blurts it out the first time you talk to her after her LM. I was like "You? Phhh, Tali's right upstairs". I so wanted a renegade option to turn her down, but paragon was for a serious relationship and renegade was for sex. Darn neutral Shepard.

Wish I knew the consequences of the conversation wheel, but I guess that's life, you never know how someone will take what you say.

I remember both the paragon and renegade options for Miranda leading to a relationship, making Paragon Mr. Cleaver and renegade Fondly McPornstash.

 

[kuyo]

This summarizes my hate for the wheel. I understand that if you can't afford an HD TV and can't read the text and therefor like the wheel, but I can't stand the damn thing.

That's not a reason to have the wheel, that a reason to let us increase the text size

 

[Xaositect]

now it's 3-4 (depending if investigation is there, which opens more conversation) which is hardly a set back.

Invesigate is just a more tidy version of the text based looping options where after selecting it would return you to the original list.

90% of all dialogue wheel progress is just completely linear. You now no longer have control over what you say, simply how the computers character say it.

Even with the older text lists leading to the same direction at times, at least you knew your character was saying something different. Now all you know is whether the computers character will be naughty, nasty or nice.

 

[Angstysquirrel]

This summarizes my hate for the wheel. I understand that if you can't afford an HD TV and can't read the text and therefor like the wheel, but I can't stand the damn thing.

That's not a reason to have the wheel, that a reason to let us increase the text size

Damn... You are rather right. However they would need to put limits on that. I don't want a text box the size of the screen either...

 

[Engarde]

I am not a fan of it and grawr it makes me furious.

It isn't the wheels fault, but it makes me feel like I am driving someone rather than roleplaying. I am pointing the character in the direction, not being the character. On notes that are the wheel's fault, this difference in perspective is further enhanced by the splitting of conversation in the wheel (good, neutral, bad, or funny or whatever it is DA2 does, havnt played it). It also adds to a feeling of linearity, regardless of whether it actually contributes to this, but I always felt with the text I had better control over the flow of conversation.

As mentioned, The Witcher had excellent converstaion. Voice acting and direct lines telling me exactly what was to be said. I also had to consider some of the choices as it didn't feel like top is good, bottom is bad.

But alot of this falls down to my personal preference.

 

[kuyo]

This summarizes my hate for the wheel. I understand that if you can't afford an HD TV and can't read the text and therefor like the wheel, but I can't stand the damn thing.

That's not a reason to have the wheel, that a reason to let us increase the text size

Damn... You are rather right. However they would need to put limits on that. I don't want a text box the size of the screen either...

The key here is the part about letting the player do it.

 

[godofallu]

Voice Wheel:
Pros- Get to hear your character, Faster gameplay/Increased flow to the game
Cons- The morality is given/locked, less choices, less intricate responces

I like the wheel in ME but I like the text based system in DA:O too. I think if they kept the wheel but got rid of this Paragon/Renegade bullshit we would find a decent middleground.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Writing a new line of dialog is trivial.

I beg to differ. In fact I think it's the opposite. writing is an artistic process sometimes you just can't write more on risk of changing your character's personality. whereas if you already have a voice actor and a recording technician getting them to record more lines is just a matter of paying them more.

Even if we assume this to be true (which is only true in that it is what the game in question uses rather than an inherent rule of the system), your argument does not work. The wheel is simply a mechanism for presenting information.

What games haven't used the Conversation wheel like I said. (I've only played the Bioware ones and they tend to go for the "good neutral evil" approach)

A list is precisely the same thing. If we applied the same restriction inherent in the wheel to a list (that an option in slot one is good, in slot 2 is neutral, in slot 3 is evil etc), the same problem arises. Even with these restrictions, there is nothing (beyond user convenience) that keeps us from displaying an arbitrary number of options, even if the user would have to do a great deal of work to actually see what they all were.

That's exactly what I'm saying.
On the list (at least for Dragon Age Origins) the top choice isn't always the good one.
they put the options in random order forcing me to think about what I was about to say instead of picking the top option when I wanted to be nice.

The Wheel could work the same way if they'd mix up the order they put choices in but since the wheel only has 6 possible slots they just lazily go

small talk on the top left and bottom left
nice on the top right
inquisitive on the middle left
neutral on the middle right
bad on the bottom right

(but if there's a game that doesn't conform to this format I'd like to know about it.)

 

[Mikeyfell]

This summarizes my hate for the wheel. I understand that if you can't afford an HD TV and can't read the text and therefor like the wheel, but I can't stand the damn thing.[/quote]

Hey I don't have an HD TV and I still prefer the option box over the wheel

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

-Snip-

My point here is that it isn't the wheel that is at fault. The wheel is just a mechanism for listing options. The problem, at the heart of it all, is that the wheel is used in a very particular way that leads to the problem that you describe. Even within the restriction of "every slot is always a particular kind of thing", there still exists a mechanism that allows a designer to use more than the six options you describe. If you consider that the wheel is nothing more than a list presented in circular format, then it stands perfectly to reason that any entry could lead to a sub wheel and each entry there could lead to a subwheel and so forth. Is this really a good idea? Nope. But it demonstrates the fundamental flaw in your argument. The problem is not the wheel but rather the design decisions that forced a particular arrangement on the wheel.

 

[Mikeyfell]

The Wheel could work the same way if they'd mix up the order they put choices in...

My point here is that it isn't the wheel that is at fault. The wheel is just a mechanism for listing options. The problem, at the heart of it all, is that the wheel is used in a very particular way that leads to the problem that you describe. Even within the restriction of "every slot is always a particular kind of thing", there still exists a mechanism that allows a designer to use more than the six options you describe. If you consider that the wheel is nothing more than a list presented in circular format, then it stands perfectly to reason that any entry could lead to a sub wheel and each entry there could lead to a subwheel and so forth. Is this really a good idea? Nope. But it demonstrates the fundamental flaw in your argument. The problem is not the wheel but rather the design decisions that forced a particular arrangement on the wheel.

I addressed that and I agree with you that it's not the wheel's fault, but there's no accounting for bad design choices. The wheel would work great if the the options were in random order every time.

My problem with (Let's call it the "Standard wheel") you don't have to read all the options to know what you're going to say.

if you wanted to be bad in Dragon Age you had to read all the options then pick the worst one. But you have to think about which one is worse.
In Mass Effect there's not thinking bottom is bad.

But I'm still talking about the designers choices instead of the Wheel, but I don't know any games where the Wheel isn't the standard wheel.

 

[lucky_sharm]

Writing a new line of dialog is trivial.

Not really. When writing dialogue, you have to take into account who it is that is saying the line. What kind of character is currently speaking right now? Would it be in character for he or she to say this line? Would it be realistic for this character to be saying this line in the situation that's currently happening? Does this line fit the overall tone of the story being conveyed so far? Writing ain't a simple thing.

 

[jFr[e]ak93]

I like the wheel, as long as I have the right conversation choices. I find Mass Effect 2 lacks what I want to say, then when I choose a friendly statement (like "nice to see you") I get renegade points. WHAT?