Dragon Age 2 Lead Writer Blasts Homophobic Fan

[mxfox408]

Hope they leave mass effect the way it is...

 

[scones_better]

I'm so glad to see such a positive and fair response. Good on them for standing behind their choices. It's very refreshing!

Also a very important point he had was that some people just wont like any of the romance choices. I would much rather romance Aveline than the two female options presented to me right now. But i'm not complaining about it, i'm just happy that there's the option at all. And some people just don,t want romance at all. You can't please everyone.

 

[Therumancer]

, there is no reason why you can't have a character who is obviously heterosexual and those people are going to realize your not interested.

>> can't have a character who is obviously heterosexual
>> character who is obviously heterosexual
>> obviously heterosexual

What? Are you serious right now? Pray tell, what exactly does someone who is "obviously heterosexual" sound and look like? Please elaborate. And if that's true, there must obviously be a way to tell "obviously heterosexuals" apart from "obviously homosexuals" right? This sounds pretty biggotted to me.

It's a lot of things. Simply put if you've ever hung out in the singles scene, or even just been around it, you can pick up on it.

To use a very stereotypical example of an intentional signal that's done consciously, which ear a guy wears an earring in is a way of declaring sexual orientation subtly. That way other guys know which way the guy doing it swings, or wants them to think they swing.

This can vary from area to area, subculture/culture to subculture/culture, and scene to scene, and these kinds of things do change.

A lot of it also has to do with body language as well.

See, in general a person isn't likely to make a pass at someone unless they are pretty sure they know what their sexual orientation is. Mistakes do happen, and nobody wants to be embarassed that way. Typically if your interested in someone in a bar or nightclub or whatever your going to keep an eye on them discretly to see if you can figure out if they
go your way or not (among other things). That's what signals are all about, with a person wanting to make it so other people of the same sort can determine what they are after, without putting themselves out to a ridiculous degree.


Setting a sexual orientation during character generation is a way of saying that anyone keeping an eye on your character with that kind of intent just isn't going to find any indication that you go that way. What's more being obviously heterosexual, means that your character might be seen to be checking out girls and so on (a good, unintentional signal for the most part). You keep an eye on people and you can tell a lot of this by where their eyes wander.

If you see some guy sitting at a bar scoping out other guys, or a girl scoping out other girls, well that's a good sign if your a homosexual. On the other hand if you see some dude and he's constantly glancing at the girls, or girls giggling and checking guys out, well then you know they are in all likelyhood straight.


Really, I shouldn't have to explain this to you, unless your very naive. Even if someone wants to make it look uncaring and spontaneous, very few people just come right out and make a play for someone they just saw 20 seconds ago without any cares at all for what they might think. By the numbers homosexuals are vastly outnumbered, and as such in mixed crowds they tend to be fairly careful, after all nobody wants to put themself out like that and be embarassed.

 

[Shikua]

, there is no reason why you can't have a character who is obviously heterosexual and those people are going to realize your not interested.

>> can't have a character who is obviously heterosexual
>> character who is obviously heterosexual
>> obviously heterosexual

What? Are you serious right now? Pray tell, what exactly does someone who is "obviously heterosexual" sound and look like? Please elaborate. And if that's true, there must obviously be a way to tell "obviously heterosexuals" apart from "obviously homosexuals" right? This sounds pretty biggotted to me.

It's a lot of things. Simply put if you've ever hung out in the singles scene, or even just been around it, you can pick up on it.

To use a very stereotypical example of an intentional signal that's done consciously, which ear a guy wears an earring in is a way of declaring sexual orientation subtly. That way other guys know which way the guy doing it swings, or wants them to think they swing.

This can vary from area to area, subculture/culture to subculture/culture, and scene to scene, and these kinds of things do change.

A lot of it also has to do with body language as well.

See, in general a person isn't likely to make a pass at someone unless they are pretty sure they know what their sexual orientation is. Mistakes do happen, and nobody wants to be embarassed that way. Typically if your interested in someone in a bar or nightclub or whatever your going to keep an eye on them discretly to see if you can figure out if they
go your way or not (among other things). That's what signals are all about, with a person wanting to make it so other people of the same sort can determine what they are after, without putting themselves out to a ridiculous degree.


Setting a sexual orientation during character generation is a way of saying that anyone keeping an eye on your character with that kind of intent just isn't going to find any indication that you go that way. What's more being obviously heterosexual, means that your character might be seen to be checking out girls and so on (a good, unintentional signal for the most part). You keep an eye on people and you can tell a lot of this by where their eyes wander.

If you see some guy sitting at a bar scoping out other guys, or a girl scoping out other girls, well that's a good sign if your a homosexual. On the other hand if you see some dude and he's constantly glancing at the girls, or girls giggling and checking guys out, well then you know they are in all likelyhood straight.


Really, I shouldn't have to explain this to you, unless your very naive. Even if someone wants to make it look uncaring and spontaneous, very few people just come right out and make a play for someone they just saw 20 seconds ago without any cares at all for what they might think. By the numbers homosexuals are vastly outnumbered, and as such in mixed crowds they tend to be fairly careful, after all nobody wants to put themself out like that and be embarassed.

Well, it may just be me, but I don't think it's always that clear-cut. I am almost never able to tell someone's sexuality just by looking at them, and even when I do, it's more often than not a lucky guess.

I've had many a time where I thought someone was gay, only to find out they weren't after a bit of light flirting, and the other way around as well. And hell, personally I've had a number of people think I'm completely gay, and I actually like women more than men.

And sometimes when you like someone, even if they give off a lot of signals that they aren't into your gender, you can easily be blinded by it.

I think a better idea, instead of a "Heterosexual only" mode, would be conversation choices in-game that affected it in a similar way. For instance, if a male character hits on you, you could choose to hit on them back, say no to just them, or to state that you aren't attracted to men at all, and at that point other male characters could have over-heard the comment, or simply been told it, and they would cease to make passes at you. This would also allow for some interesting character depth, as they could add characters that still wanted to be with you, and didn't beleive what you said, and there wouldn't have to be the mistake of saying the wrong thing and ending up in bed with them, as the game would know by your conversation choice that your version of the PC is completely straight/gay.

That way, it's something built into the conversational system, and would both work, and not be seen as an "Anti-gay" Button by the more vocal members of the LGBT community.

On a Side Note, I would like to appologize for over-reacting to your initial statement, I just felt like it was going in a different, far more stereotypical direction. Classic internet mis-reading eh?

 

[Paradoxrifts]

So let me get this straight. It is now an example of arrogant white straight male privilege if they expect to get value for their money from a product, which is directly proportional to the amount of money that they as a collective demographic provide to the company via sales revenue?

In a more competitive economic environment they'd never get away with an attitude like this but like a lot of other niche industries they'll do whatever the hell they want because the only other option available is going without.

However,

We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else.

If David has evidence that Bastal is wrong then he really ought to prove him wrong by sharing that evidence with the community rather than asking them to take his word for it. If Dave can prove that enough people who are actually playing the game are in fact making use of these options that Bioware have provided as to reach a wider broader demographic then the people who don't like it really just don't have a leg to stand on.

Pony up the evidence David. If you can definitively put this issue to rest then do it!!

 

[scones_better]

More competitive economic environment? We're in a recession! The fact that they are in fact extending to the LGBT community is proof that they are trying to get as much money as they can. They most likely wouldn't bother otherwise, especially because of this kind of controversy. They know there are more gay, lesbian, and bisexual gamers then people like you and the OP assume. OP say 5% but he also clearly say that that number is his guess. I'm guessing he doesn't have a lot of gay people in his life. Maybe Mr Gaider as good numbers, I would love to see them too, but let's pretend he doesn't: the generally accepted statistic is that 1 in 10 people in north america is gay. I'm pretty sure that's also applicable to gamers and 10% isn't a small number when you look at the bigger picture. 10% of 1 000 000 is still 100. 000 people. And yes a lot of LGBT gamers will still play the game if it caters mainly to straight people, but I'm sure the company would rather take the extra risk if in mean getting attention and interest from other gamers whom might pass the game for that very reason. As much as I can appreciate the idea that this is done out altruism, I have no doubt that money is also a big factor.

The real problem with the OP's post is that he claims he speak for every straight (white) male out there. He clearly doesn't.

So let me get this straight. It is now an example of arrogant white straight male privilege if they expect to get value for their money from a product, which is directly proportional to the amount of money that they as a collective demographic provide to the company via sales revenue?

In a more competitive economic environment they'd never get away with an attitude like this but like a lot of other niche industries they'll do whatever the hell they want because the only other option available is going without.

However,

We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else.

If David has evidence that Bastal is wrong then he really ought to prove him wrong by sharing that evidence with the community rather than asking them to take his word for it. If Dave can prove that enough people who are actually playing the game are in fact making use of these options that Bioware have provided as to reach a wider broader demographic then the people who don't like it really just don't have a leg to stand on.

Pony up the evidence David. If you can definitively put this issue to rest then do it!!

 

[Blindswordmaster]

My problem isn't with the possibility of homosexual relationships, but that I couldn't turn down Anders without getting rivalry points. Is adding "I just like you as a friend" too much to ask? Not that I wasn't flattered.

Why is that so strange? Anders is a whiny guy, of course he's not going to like your character rejecting him. Would you see a person as more friendly when they turn down your advances?

I would expect him to respect my decisions. Shouldn't he just accept that I'm not gay?

 

[Blindswordmaster]

My problem isn't with the possibility of homosexual relationships, but that I couldn't turn down Anders without getting rivalry points. Is adding "I just like you as a friend" too much to ask? Not that I wasn't flattered.

If/when girls do that to you, does it make you warm to them?

It's worth noting that Ladyhawkes can't turn down Anders without getting rivalry points either. Are you basically asking for a special hetero getout clause which allows you to turn people down without making them feel bad or influencing their perception of you?

Because that certainly doesn't exist in real life..

Yes I do get a get out. Because we aren't the same sexual orientation, not that I just didn't want to fuck him. It's different between homo- and heterosexuals. I'd be understanding if a women I liked was a lesbian. It's impossible for her to be attracted to me, so that's it. Anders needs to grow up and respect my sexual orientation.

 

[rapidoud]

While I support what the lead writer is saying, it still doesn't remove from the fact that if I turned down a potential same sex relationship I'd get a ton of rivalry points which doesn't make much sense.

And this doesn't happen with women, I'd say you're a bit homophobe too mate.

 

[scones_better]

My problem isn't with the possibility of homosexual relationships, but that I couldn't turn down Anders without getting rivalry points. Is adding "I just like you as a friend" too much to ask? Not that I wasn't flattered.

If/when girls do that to you, does it make you warm to them?

It's worth noting that Ladyhawkes can't turn down Anders without getting rivalry points either. Are you basically asking for a special hetero getout clause which allows you to turn people down without making them feel bad or influencing their perception of you?

Because that certainly doesn't exist in real life..

Yes I do get a get out. Because we aren't the same sexual orientation, not that I just didn't want to fuck him. It's different between homo- and heterosexuals. I'd be understanding if a women I liked was a lesbian. It's impossible for her to be attracted to me, so that's it. Anders needs to grow up and respect my sexual orientation.

Not everyone reacts the same way. Some people just don't take rejection. At all. I mean how many stories about stalker/murderers have we heard? Someone being dumped by their spouse going bunkers? Or suicidal? You might personally have the maturity level to accept that a relationship can't ever happen because of the other's person orientation, but some people don't. He really wanted you, you say no, he's pissed off by it. That's actually accurate to real life. And let me tell you, as a queer woman, not all guys take the "I prefer women, sorry" all that well. Some are gentleman some are not.

 

[Zetsubou-Sama]

While I support what the lead writer is saying, it still doesn't remove from the fact that if I turned down a potential same sex relationship I'd get a ton of rivalry points which doesn't make much sense.

And this doesn't happen with women, I'd say you're a bit homophobe too mate.

I was just jabbing at how they call something rivalry points when it doesn't really relate to the concept of rivalry. I should have phrased that jab at bioware a little better.

I assure you I'm not homophobic too,for many reasons but that's not here or there. Let the discussion procceed.

 

[NeoGuardian86]

Here's the thing.

while i totally disagreed with OP's problem. I really liked Merrill didn't matter to me if she was Bi - really.

I am of two minds though on it.

the bit that irked me in the game design was making all the love interests Bi. at one point in the game the thought crossed my mind after seeing quite a bit of the dialog choices between characters "what are the chances that everyone of these characters are Bisexual".

On the other hand, i know why they did it that way, in order for the player to play out the story as they'd wish. Thing is i air on the side against that, story and character story wise.


Here's the thing, put aside were in a fantasy game (which if you follow this logic, making all characters bisexual should be an insult rather then a good thing) inhabited by Dragons and magic. Where sex is the ONE subject apparently in the lands of Thedas, that is not in conflict. themes of religion, politics, bigotry, racism, class, and sexism are all touched, all have a sense of real-world quality to them. just not the issue of sex, in DA2 free love reigns. On the personal human level interactions i expect a bit of semblance of realism, sex - if it's plays a role in your characters story - included.

The chances of me right now walking out my door and going on a world-wind epic quest and gathering allies and finding half are BI or some other group of the LGBT community, is pretty slim.

Getting passed by Anders (that comic is totally true, being nice =/= leading someone on, nor did i ever pick the heart icon with him) didn't irk me, it was the bit of having no ability to try to let him down easy kinda irked me. Even if i was to get just fewer rivalry points then the dick choice, it would of been a little better. The inability to say no nicely, is what irked me, not Anders coming out as gay to me (didn't know he was bi on my first play through, i go into story games blind about story only knowing about premise).


Going Bi for all but the religious one (Sabastian - who'se an allright guy.) just struck me as cheap and lazy way out. Nor could i help but get the sense that having the religious guy be straight sent the wrong signal, there are LGBT's who have faith as well. So if the card was to give choice to everyone, not doing so went against this mantra. 'gain i'm overthinking it, it's inconsequential, just something that came to mind.

Everyone, whether your straight or LGBT should be able to respect the fact that X person is not of your swing.

If i may indulge on a story in my own personal history.
When i was a freshman in college, I had a girlfriend (friend) who i'd hang out with a lot, a gamer as well so we had something to talk about outside of school. I had this massive crush on her, thought she was very beautiful (in my eyes, by most others she just looked normal, not especially hot) and had the right sort of personality that i was attracted to. When i asked her out, she was surprised and had to just say that she was a lesbian.
I was absolutely crushed i couldn't take the realtionship any further with her, but managed to be mature enough to still be friends with her, and while i was doing my bachelor we still would meet up and talk about games and movies.


Had i been playing Dragon Age 2, and found that when i hit on Merrill, and say she just got awkward and said she was not interested in men like that. I'd of probably felt like crap,embarrassed, and a bit sad but still genuinely happy that Bioware went so far as to do that. One of the few straight up lesbian characters in video games.

But i'm sure someone out there was going to complain about not being able to romance them.


Just.

doing all Bi, doesn't get away from the issue, it's just a cop-out as i see it. Fan service to those who are going to complain had they not been given the choice. And anyone who says otherwise is apparently against choice, or worse homophobic (and that last bit might be true in some cases).


The way i see it Bioware is doomed in the love interest department.

Have a mixture of straight/bi/gay for good/bad reasons - people complain about how I did not get to romance X person.
Have all straight people for good/bad reasons - your homophobic and should be ashamed!
Have all LGT people for good/bad reasons - your shoving the issue down our throats!/This is a game for the LGBT community mostly, not so much the culture at large.


I like offering choice, I just don't think making everyone BI is realistic or right approach, and it overall weakens characters i think, as instead of crafting 4 good romances, you shill out 8 to try to make everyone happy. Nor do i expect if Bioware just went back to doing the mixture LI's rather then the easy BI route, that they'll ever be able to make everyone happy.


Say if in Mass Effect 3, they decide to retcon a character and make them gay, or have them turn BI. if done right, is great, but do NOT do that to every flippin' character, just for the sake of fan service.


Also. If people take issue that the Bioware forums haven't - in the past - been seiged by gamers for not offering or offering enough LGBT LI's, have apparently NOT stayed at the Bioware forums for very long at all.

 

[zobeda]

This is amazing and one of the many, many reasons why I am such a big Bioware fangirl. Isabella was the most appealing (both looks and character dynamic-wise) of any of the love interests male or female so I was glad she could be my gf.

 

[Zinaxos]

I took the extra time to read the original post and it was well worth the time.
The Poster might be a little Ignorant but, the Bioware Writer handled him well.

 

[mikev7.0]

The guy is an ignorant moron, though I will admit that the game seems to push Anders at you a little too much.

I think my problem is that they seem to push ROMANCE on you too much period when if they did want to be historically accurate for the "period" they are emulating you would be paired mostly for economic or political reasons. I wish I could talk in depth to a character about their past and background or just trade war stories, without taking a hit for it!

Also how much more gameplay could be included if not for these harlequin(in more ways than one)esque ridiculous insta-LUV romances?

How about conversations that are based on your ideas about the parties overall tactics or strategy or that were used instead of tactics menus? So much more could be done with conversation than "I like you!" "I like you too!" "Horizontal Mambo?" "Gee no thanks I've known you what two days?" "You suck and now the mission must suffer since I'm jilted!"

Actually now that I think of it that does kinda' sound like a modern romance....

Oh well it is good that at least the romance is equally shallow for all people.

 

[bob-2000]

And Isabela is just, well, Isabela.

I think Isabela qualifies as an omni-sexual. You know, she's sexually attracted to pretty much everything.

Being lesbian, I'm really glad that I can romance pretty much everyone. Also, the characters all have relative sexuality. If Hawke is female, for example, the men are straight, Merrill is lesbian, and Isabela is Isabela.

EDIT: By the way, David Gaider is great and I really really appreciate what he's doing.

 

[ryanxm]

im glad to see bioware handeling this siuation like this.Good to see bioware is atleast trying to be fair

 

[Paradoxrifts]

More competitive economic environment? We're in a recession!

Not a whole lot of companies make traditional triple-A RPG video games anymore. So recession or no recession, if you want to play these games either you take what is given to you or you face the prospect of waiting even longer periods between game releases.

More competitive economic Maybe Mr Gaider as good numbers, I would love to see them too, but let's pretend he doesn't: the generally accepted statistic is that 1 in 10 people in North America is gay.

Just because something is often repeated doesn't make it true, the existing evidence [http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED457285&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED457285existing ] points towards a much lower figure of somewhere between 4%-5%. Now with the absence of good solid census data that percentage probably isn't completely accurate but I think that it's quite safe to say that doubling it at it's most generous would be a bit of stretch.

And yes a lot of LGBT gamers will still play the game if it caters mainly to straight people, but I'm sure the company would rather take the extra risk if in mean getting attention and interest from other gamers whom might pass the game for that very reason. As much as I can appreciate the idea that this is done out altruism, I have no doubt that money is also a big factor.

Now I don't think you are giving the folks over at Bioware enough credit. They're making a stand on their principles and while I can appreciate that as much as the next person, it doesn't change the fact that if a disproportionate amount of development dollars is being spent on an fringe audience then that would mean that the majority is not getting value for money. If they have evidence to the contrary then they ought to settle the matter by making it public.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Yes I do get a get out. Because we aren't the same sexual orientation, not that I just didn't want to fuck him. It's different between homo- and heterosexuals. I'd be understanding if a women I liked was a lesbian. It's impossible for her to be attracted to me, so that's it. Anders needs to grow up and respect my sexual orientation.

My experience says that if that's really true you're probably a minority.

For various reasons (because of my course, because of the kind of events I go to and so forth) I get to meet a lot of lesbians in the context where their lesbianism is obvious. Certainly considerably more than most of the population.

Of those lesbians, the vast majority have virtually no close straight male friends. If you dig into the reasoning behind this, you will unearth a catalogue of experiences in which straight men have proven pathologically unable to deal with lesbianism. Heck, one of my best friends was literally pushed up against the wall and groped by a guy who insisted to her that she wasn't a lesbian and was totally getting off on it.. in a gay club.

That's an extreme example, but similar experiences are incredibly commonplace. Men who claim they're understanding about being rejected, then prove to be moody, clingy little bitches later on. Men who never stop making advances. Men who say inappropriate things or try to involve themselves indirectly in their lesbian 'friends' sex lives. Men who treat their lesbian friends as surrogate girlfriends and demand constant emotional engagement from them. On the other hand, there are men who treat their lesbian friends with complete kid gloves and refuse to go near them. Neither is genuinely 'understanding'.

My personal theory is that it's to do with the way men are raised to behave in sexual relationships. Men are taught to be persistent, assertive, even slightly aggressive in expressing their desires. For gay men, this leads to interesting dynamics which often force men in that position to moderate their behaviour. But still, gay men can be incredibly forward and assertive.

Heck, I was out last night and some guy literally pulled me over and kissed me on the mouth. It was inappropriate, especially since my boyfriend (who fortunately isn't exclusive like that) was standing a few meters away. I didn't mind, we were in a gay club and to a certain extent gay clubs can be about random intimacy with strangers, but even though it was fucking presumptuous I would not have come across well to that guy if I'd told him to get off. Most men aren't taught to be 'reasonable' when it comes to making advances, it sucks but it won't change just because you can convince yourself you're not like that.

So yeah, you say you'd be understanding.. I personally will believe it when I see it. If you are one of the minority who genuinely are respectful in that regard, good for you, you give me hope for our sex. But I didn't manage to handle that situation well, I've never met anyone who has, and until it happens to you I'm not convinced you could either.

 

[mr.mystery]

am I the only one who wants to pretend this game never existed in the first place?