Dragon Age 2 Lead Writer Blasts Homophobic Fan

[Terminal Blue]

If I found out that one of my female friends was a lesbian, it would definitely change our relationship: I would be making lesbian jokes every second. Because that's how we roll. I'm fat and my friends tell fat jokes.

All well and good, but to a certain extent that kind of dynamic only works between heterosexual men. Women, for example, generally don't appreciate fat jokes ever, regardless of context. For you, joking about your weight renders it socially acceptable. For a woman in your position, the only context in which her weight would be something to be joked about would be if you were taking the piss at her expense in a deliberate attempt to make her feel horrible.

Likewise, for many gay people (male or female) their sexuality is not something they need or particularly want to joke about with those who don't to some extent share the experience. You think gay/bi people don't know the extent to which straight people take the piss out of them? Generally, we're pretty well aware of it and don't really need reminding.

And if you'd hit on a lesbian and been rejected, I'm pretty sure deflecting it with jokes would not come across as terribly comfortable.

The problem with many boys today (because real men don't act like this) is that they're still in that juvenile, conquest phase.

I take the point (even though I profoundly disagree on many levels) but did you have to use that phrasing?

If nothing else, it's meaningless. All kinds of men claim to be the 'real men', with the inflection being that everyone else is fake, feminine or immature. Who is right? I don't know and I don't particularly care. Sort it out amongst yourselves but don't expect it to carry any weight with me.

You get rejected, by women, by employers, by other people, do you ***** about it? Set the employer's car on fire? Stalk that woman? No.

Does +15 rivalry points imply any of those things?

You put yourself out there, tell a woman that you like her, and she tells you that she just wants to be friends, or she just rejects you completely. I pick myself up and move on. I deal with it, because that's what a man does. I accept others others as they are. I respect the choices people make, even if I don't totally agree with them. I've grown up.

You said it yourself.

Noone's saying that you'd throw a little tantrum, merely that it can irreparably alter the structure of the relationship. Did you ever try to stay friends with someone who rejected you? Have you never dealt with feelings of bitterness caused by rejection? Have you ever deliberately avoided getting too intimately involved with someone because you fancy the pants of them and you know it's not reciprocated? Have you ever felt like someone is laughing at you or manipulating your feelings? What makes you think a gay or bisexual person would not feel those things just because they 'respect your sexuality'.

We're not talking deep and meaningful here, we're talking a very small, easily counteracted numerical move away from the 'friendship' end of the spectrum and towards the 'rivalry' end of the spectrum. It's probably a lot better than what would happen in real life, which is that the person in question would probably just not bother with you again rather than trying to stay friends with you at all. Anders is certainly a lot more understanding about it than I would be.

A homosexual male is a living, breathing, walking cliche.

You have to be a cliche of something, you can't just be a cliche.

Are you saying that a homosexual male is a cliche of a homosexual male? Deep and incisive indeed.

Or are you saying that all individual homosexual men are cliches of homosexual men as a whole. Because if so:

a) You're laughably wrong.
b) You might want to leave your parents' basement from time to time.

 

[Ian Lutz]

It is not just about making "sexually closed companions", it is about characterization.

I asked on the last page, and I ask again here, which companions, precisely, feel mis-characterized in their sexuality?

Right now, none. You want to know why that is? The answer is, right now the sexual orientation of BioWare characters is currently meaningless. This is because for the writers never take a chance to define it, Which to some might be okay with this. I am not one of those people, and as of right now romances to me seem like they are strictly fan-service. Fan-service is never a good thing to put in, especially when you have the chance to do something really ground-breaking as far as computer role-playing goes. I think that the first real step to making that happen would be to create characters that have a definite sexual orientation. I hope that answers you question.

 

[Aris Khandr]

Not really. Especially since the three characters I met were very well defined. Isabela, like it or not, is this game's Zevran. A hedonist who enjoys the pleasures of the flesh, no matter who her partner or partners are. And Merrill and Anders re both characters with a sense of isolation about them. Merrill has been isolated and emotionally abused so long that if she didn't fall for Hawke, she'd probably be in love with Varric by the end of the game, just because she's completely unaccustomed to anyone actually being nice to her. Anders is alone, but remembers when it was not so. When he had the Wardens, friends, perhaps even lovers, but lost them all with the Blight and the fight with the Templars. That's why he's more aggressive than the others about romance, because he remembers what it is like to have someone care about him, and so he seeks that out again.

Far from the "blank slate" that people claim the characters to be, if you actually take the time to look at them you can see that they were written specifically to be open to everyone. Again, I can't speak for Fenris because I never met him. But the rest? Their characters lean that way very clearly.

 

[FuzzyRaccoon]

That may be true but the characters can have their own sexual orientations.
Anders never struck me as the Bisexual type.

But this is probably a response to the Tali and Jack outrage from Mass Effect 2.

Anders NEVER did? Ah... did he lose his GLOWING gold earring that was only on the right side which seemed to call attention to itself with every cutscene of him?
:/

 

[FuzzyRaccoon]

If I found out that one of my female friends was a lesbian, it would definitely change our relationship: I would be making lesbian jokes every second. Because that's how we roll. I'm fat and my friends tell fat jokes.

All well and good, but to a certain extent that kind of dynamic only works between heterosexual men. Women, for example, generally don't appreciate fat jokes ever, regardless of context. For you, joking about your weight renders it socially acceptable. For a woman in your position, the only context in which her weight would be something to be joked about would be if you were taking the piss at her expense in a deliberate attempt to make her feel horrible.

Likewise, for many gay people (male or female) their sexuality is not something they need or particularly want to joke about with those who don't to some extent share the experience. You think gay/bi people don't know the extent to which straight people take the piss out of them? Generally, we're pretty well aware of it and don't really need reminding.

And if you'd hit on a lesbian and been rejected, I'm pretty sure deflecting it with jokes would not come across as terribly comfortable.

Evilthecat, I just wanted to make a note that ah, that's not exactly true. Me and my friends always make jokes about sexuality and weight and things like that. I actually agree with Blindswordsmaster in that I feel it DOES change the dynamic to learn something like that about anyway, but it doesn't have to be a particularly significant change. For example, knowing that my friend is gay, I'm not going to point out a hot girl, because he won't care except maybe to whine that he needs to work out.

All I'm saying is that ah, you too are painting things in broad strokes. Things are a lot more varied, that's why it's so hard to defend an opinion. (Though I did agree with a lot of the other things you said. :3).

 

[Jamie Doerschuck]

They should have introduced some characters as straight, some as bi and some as gay. It is more realistic than turning all the romance-companions into bi characters. They should have approached this sexuality issue in more creative manner, where the sexuality is part of the personality. For example, Merrill is straight and Isabela is bi.

And then one guy can be straight and one can be gay? So anyone who wants to get with women has two choices and anyone who wants to get with guys has one?

Sorry, just the way you phrased it seemed a little "Well OF COURSE the other woman should be bi. But not the guy. One of those can be gay, because no one cares." in my head..

 

[Jamie Doerschuck]

I can't say I agree with the fan who spoke up, but seriously...
If a guy starts hitting on me IN REAL LIFE I'm liable to punch him, or at least give him a strongly worded dismissal, so in a game I feel my first reaction might be to place a length of steel between their eyeballs.

Isn't just me of course, I imagine many people feel the same for different groups. I'm sure many women weren't comfortable with female advances, and I doubt homosexuals were too fond of the 20-year odd streak of all love interests being straight pairs.

Bioware says it's trying to please everyone.
I have a bit of sad news for them... you can't actually do that- it doesn't really work. If it did everyone would want the same thing.

Um..... Isn't that a little.. Unnecessary? If you just said "Sorry bro, I'm straight" that'd be fine... You don't have to flip out at him or punch him out..

 

[Terminal Blue]

Anders NEVER did? Ah... did he lose his GLOWING gold earring that was only on the right side which seemed to call attention to itself with every cutscene of him?
:/

I really don't know how I forgot that.

In fact, wasn't one of his companion gifts an earring?

If anything, it seems to have become less visually prominent in DA2.

Evilthecat, I just wanted to make a note that ah, that's not exactly true. Me and my friends always make jokes about sexuality and weight and things like that. I actually agree with Blindswordsmaster in that I feel it DOES change the dynamic to learn something like that about anyway, but it doesn't have to be a particularly significant change.

I was aware of generalizing, which is why I tried to use words like 'many' instead of 'all'. I make what might be called lesbian jokes at one of my friends in particular all the time, but that dynamic took a long time to come out and if I wasn't bi myself I don't think I could pull it off. It's never a good idea to assume you can joke about someone's sexuality, or their weight for that matter, unless you don't mind potentially being very hurtful (which is one of the things I'd class as immature).

I think the example has got a little out of hand, though. My point was that it's not unrealistic for Anders to react badly (very slightly so, in fact, IRL I think most people would react far worse) to being rejected, and that 'sorry, I'm gay/straight' wouldn't be an instant get out clause which renders you immune to hurting someone's feelings or changing how they see you. Just because someone can understand why you're rejecting them doesn't mean they necessarily feel any better about it or find it any easier to hang out with you from that point on.

Maybe straight guys just don't see it because they don't hang out with or make friends with the men who hit on them, but there's an emotional response there, and begrudging the existence of an emotional response because it comes from a gay person who should just 'grow up and respect your sexuality' is kind of silly. It's one thing to expect someone not to throw a tantrum, but expecting it to have no impact whatsoever is demanding a level of control which none of you practice yourselves. I've seen straight guys fall for lesbians. Heck, I've been there to some extent. Even if the guy is completely understanding, it's generally not the best situation and doesn't speak well for future friendship potential.

Presenting a world of easy solutions where people's emotions can be merrily brushed off simply by explaining yourself is about as pleasure-driven as it gets. You might argue that's the point of games, but it's also what renders them as 'toys for children' as opposed to a serious vehicle for stories and art. Every other medium (except mainstream cinema, arguably) has got past simply pandering to the audiences desire for easy solutions and constant affirmation.

 

[Mikeyfell]

That may be true but the characters can have their own sexual orientations.
Anders never struck me as the Bisexual type.

But this is probably a response to the Tali and Jack outrage from Mass Effect 2.

Anders NEVER did? Ah... did he lose his GLOWING gold earring that was only on the right side which seemed to call attention to itself with every cutscene of him?
:/

O_0....
You know what.
I never actually noticed that he was only wearing one.
I...I feel rather silly right now.

 

[Ishiro32]

IMHO If someone feels awkward during the game, that when your character don't provoke anyone, get hit by some other guy. It is a problem. It's player and he felt not ok. Now let's see why. He could be homophobic, but what if it's a problem of design.

In DA2 romances are made plain straight, you don't have to do nothing at all to get coversation with hearth. So even when you are not intrested in character at all, she/he hits on you. This system prevent us from screwing up if we want to hook up with someone, but also it kinda shallows thing up and break immersion. Everyone wants to have sex with, even if you don't care about them or just like them. Of course i don't want to play romances with solution (aka Baldurs Gate) but when you think about anwser you give something, let you connect better. It's just... romances should be optional and should be rewarding and hard. Because that's how relationship work. You give a lot and you feel great afterwards.


I think the system when all romances are bi is a bit silly. The basic idea about RPG is not that you create your own story. RPG are about Role Playing a character, feeling him, and going into a new world. When the world shifts it's rules just to make you happy, it feels strange.
You should change the world with your actions not world would change to appeal to you. Make characters bi, straight, gay whatever, just make them good and belivable. When you replay game and companion is just diffrent because of your gender... It's stupid in the RPG sense.
I also must say that romances for straight male didn't appeal to me so much, but i think is just companions. Beside Varrick i didn't connect with anybody or i didn't care about anyone. (but it's another topic), and a bit Fenris, even though he annoyed the hell out of me.

IMHO this whole antihomophobic thing is a bit silly. I think it's the flaw of the design not bad will of some guy. Also if you must have this system an a are you gay or straight or bi question during character creaton wouldn't be hard . I approve that game have such a strong defence, but in this case, it's easy. They actualy are on the moral side... Let's be equall to anybody. So it's hard to argue.

 

[Blindswordmaster]

If I found out that one of my female friends was a lesbian, it would definitely change our relationship: I would be making lesbian jokes every second. Because that's how we roll. I'm fat and my friends tell fat jokes.

All well and good, but to a certain extent that kind of dynamic only works between heterosexual men. Women, for example, generally don't appreciate fat jokes ever, regardless of context. For you, joking about your weight renders it socially acceptable. For a woman in your position, the only context in which her weight would be something to be joked about would be if you were taking the piss at her expense in a deliberate attempt to make her feel horrible.

Likewise, for many gay people (male or female) their sexuality is not something they need or particularly want to joke about with those who don't to some extent share the experience. You think gay/bi people don't know the extent to which straight people take the piss out of them? Generally, we're pretty well aware of it and don't really need reminding.

And if you'd hit on a lesbian and been rejected, I'm pretty sure deflecting it with jokes would not come across as terribly comfortable.

The problem with many boys today (because real men don't act like this) is that they're still in that juvenile, conquest phase.

I take the point (even though I profoundly disagree on many levels) but did you have to use that phrasing?

If nothing else, it's meaningless. All kinds of men claim to be the 'real men', with the inflection being that everyone else is fake, feminine or immature. Who is right? I don't know and I don't particularly care. Sort it out amongst yourselves but don't expect it to carry any weight with me.

You get rejected, by women, by employers, by other people, do you ***** about it? Set the employer's car on fire? Stalk that woman? No.

Does +15 rivalry points imply any of those things?

You put yourself out there, tell a woman that you like her, and she tells you that she just wants to be friends, or she just rejects you completely. I pick myself up and move on. I deal with it, because that's what a man does. I accept others others as they are. I respect the choices people make, even if I don't totally agree with them. I've grown up.

You said it yourself.

Noone's saying that you'd throw a little tantrum, merely that it can irreparably alter the structure of the relationship. Did you ever try to stay friends with someone who rejected you? Have you never dealt with feelings of bitterness caused by rejection? Have you ever deliberately avoided getting too intimately involved with someone because you fancy the pants of them and you know it's not reciprocated? Have you ever felt like someone is laughing at you or manipulating your feelings? What makes you think a gay or bisexual person would not feel those things just because they 'respect your sexuality'.

We're not talking deep and meaningful here, we're talking a very small, easily counteracted numerical move away from the 'friendship' end of the spectrum and towards the 'rivalry' end of the spectrum. It's probably a lot better than what would happen in real life, which is that the person in question would probably just not bother with you again rather than trying to stay friends with you at all. Anders is certainly a lot more understanding about it than I would be.

A homosexual male is a living, breathing, walking cliche.

You have to be a cliche of something, you can't just be a cliche.

Are you saying that a homosexual male is a cliche of a homosexual male? Deep and incisive indeed.

Or are you saying that all individual homosexual men are cliches of homosexual men as a whole. Because if so:

a) You're laughably wrong.
b) You might want to leave your parents' basement from time to time.

I took some time to think of a really good response about respect and tolerance, then I realized I was talking about a fucking character in a video game. I think I'm done here. Bye.

 

[NeoGuardian86]

They should have introduced some characters as straight, some as bi and some as gay. It is more realistic than turning all the romance-companions into bi characters. They should have approached this sexuality issue in more creative manner, where the sexuality is part of the personality. For example, Merrill is straight and Isabela is bi.

And then one guy can be straight and one can be gay? So anyone who wants to get with women has two choices and anyone who wants to get with guys has one?

Sorry, just the way you phrased it seemed a little "Well OF COURSE the other woman should be bi. But not the guy. One of those can be gay, because no one cares." in my head..

technically it could go the other way as well - just as you say.


I just got the sense of doing them all technically bi seemed a bit silly.

and by the by, all the base game LI's back stories are very neat actually. I just thought making them all swing both ways depending on players default gender pick seemed rather silly at best, and at worst fan-service pandering.

Personally i felt Anders and Isabella were good possible Bi or straight characters, Fenris i don't know, seriously his character make up gave me no sense of which way he swung. and Merrill felt she could of gone straight or lesbian.

and had it turned out Merrill was a lesbian only character, i would of strongly applauded Bioware for doing so, and you know what? even though she was my favorite female companion? she would STILL be on my team throughout the game. I would not berate the Bioware forums over and over again that i didn't get to romance person X.

Hell please understand, i realize that in my Dragon Age Origins, i fell for the bisexual Leliana, Mass Effect it's the mono-gender (albeit feminine physique) Liara, and Mass Effect 2 sealed alien Tali'Zorah Noryah.

Not to mention when it comes to the discussion of race, gender and orientation in video games, you can't really bring up Bioware or like games as candidates for the main player. It technically doesn't count that there are black leads if you can simply customize one. That's different then if you bought Bulletstorm and the lead happened to be black, and no it's not customizable. Hope this makes some sense to people. Now one could point "well there are now Bisexual characters" not really...

the only character in Dragon Age 2 who jests at playing both sides is Isabella, the others never mention their other relations and really don't lend any idea that they are. Whereas Leliana and Zevran, if you talk to them enough or in certain ways, regardless if male or female character chosen, lend themselves to them being Bi. again hope this makes sense.

Think the idea that certain romanceable's are only gay, or only lesbian should be something seen in some games. Not speaking out against BI's either. and i certainly don't wanna see heterosexuals completely slighted either. Should be something seen in the romanceables. The idea that certain people are only interested in certain groups, that helps people UNDERSTAND and grows real empathy for the other. That's all.

I merely disagree with their decision.

I think the "PANDER TO ME THE STRAIGHT WHITE MALE!" is retarded - putting it nicely, and asking for a 'hetero/homo' option is offensive and insulting.

That's all, that's my complaint, but like a said a few pages back, i got a lot bigger beef with other design issues then this.

 

[NeoGuardian86]

delete this please.

 

[Arren Kae]

Designing a game to please the majority of your audience isn't giving anyone special treatment. Including gay sex scenes and dialogue trees for a negligible minority is special treatment.

One of the things that makes playing a chick in an RPG appeal less appealing to me is getting hit on by dudes. I guess that's realistic (insight into how hassled a hot chick must feel) and it's fun if you get to shoot them down harshly but it's annoying as hell if you're stuck with a party member who constantly hits on you. It's even worse if you're a guy so he shouldn't be hitting on you at all.

That poster did speak for straight men. You can take his sentiment for granted. To expect otherwise is to ignore reality.

Something he was wrong about though was Isabela not appealing to most men. Isabela and Merril are foils that cover the range of all men's taste, not subsets. Isabela's the seductive woman who's confident in her sexuality and Merril's the shyer type. So there's the extreme ends of the spectrum for guys: the girl who's experienced and bold or the girl who's gentler and meek.

He wrote,
"I'm certain that some will declare "That's only fair!" but lets be honest. I'll be generous and assume that 5% of all Dragon Age 2 players are actually homosexuals. I'll be even more generous and assume that the Anders romance was liked by every homosexual. Are you really telling me that you could not have written another straight romance that would have pleased more than 5% of your fans?"
and he's absolutely right. If you're talking about fairness it makes sense objectively to go by numbers. Otherwise you'd try to cover every form of romance and sex. Where's the child love interest for pedophiles? Why can't there be sex with Dog for folks into bestiality? Why can't you do an enemy's corpse for folks into necrophilia? To claim that there are enough gay gamers that they need pandered to is a lie. Bioware is giving homosexuals preferential treatment. Likewise, Obsidian has 1 straight and 1 gay companion of both genders b/c these developers want to push their gay-loving philosophy. That's the truth of it. The design choice doesn't represent reality nor does it express a fantasy the majority of the fanbase wants.
Fable's the only real exception in my mind b/c the extent of romantic relationships are hearts above characters head, saying you're married, moving in, etc. and it would actually take more programming to classify NPCs according to gender for those checks. But Bioware and Obsidian have went out of their way, slighting many fans, to provide content for a minority of gamers. Bioware has made the mistake of going so far as to force their main demographic to endure content that disgusts them, alienating their players.

Gaider says he has the #s for how many people played the gay content but I wonder if they're so high why he doesn't post them. Also, playing the content isn't the same as enjoying it. Lord knows plenty of gamers will complete any menial task for an achievement or 100% completion or just to see what else the game has.

 

[Arren Kae]

The basic idea about RPG is not that you create your own story.

You must hate Bethesda's RPGs and love JRPGs. Making your own story's the best part of RPGs. Otherwise what are you doing, customizing equipment?

 

[Arren Kae]

No, Zombie Dude's saying the truth. Random acts of violence are part of the fun of games.

 

[the_green_dragon]

He wrote,
"I'm certain that some will declare "That's only fair!" but lets be honest. I'll be generous and assume that 5% of all Dragon Age 2 players are actually homosexuals.

5%? I would have thought there would be more gay or bisexual gamers out there.

 

[Arren Kae]

A percent is a ratio, not an amount. It doesn't represent the total # of gay gamers it represents how many gamers, out of every hundred, are gay.

I can think of 2 and 1 bi out of 100+ gamers I know. So probably a smaller percent than that.

 

[NeoGuardian86]

A percent is a ratio, not an amount. It doesn't represent the total # of gay gamers it represents how many gamers, out of every hundred, are gay.

I can think of 2 and 1 bi out of 100+ gamers I know. So probably a smaller percent than that.

That really doesn't mean that there are that few LGBT gamers out there though.

See i agreed with Gaider on the aspect that just because the vast majority may very well be just straight males (like myself included) didn't make it right to tailor games purely only for them. Hell i'm also Muslim, Arab and Saudi, there are no games for me really, typically i'm on the other end of the barrel shooting them - unfortunately. Still enjoy them as a work of entertainment though, but would i appreciate a positive Muslim or Arab or Saudi character in a game, hell yes i would.

and despite my own qualms over the LI's accessibility. It can still be commendable for what they intended to do.


Also there is this retaded petition to get Gaider fired for stereotyping gays, be that someone else pretending to be gay or not, it's still really wrong. Gaider and his team didn't - at least i didn't think so - cross any horrendous stereotyping in their writing.

Nevertheless despite my own niggling on things, the Bioware writers are still amongst the best in the industry.

 

[snfonseka]

They should have introduced some characters as straight, some as bi and some as gay. It is more realistic than turning all the romance-companions into bi characters. They should have approached this sexuality issue in more creative manner, where the sexuality is part of the personality. For example, Merrill is straight and Isabela is bi.

And then one guy can be straight and one can be gay? So anyone who wants to get with women has two choices and anyone who wants to get with guys has one?

Sorry, just the way you phrased it seemed a little "Well OF COURSE the other woman should be bi. But not the guy. One of those can be gay, because no one cares." in my head..

Not sure whether you are really referring to my post. Because I have never mentioned in my post that "one guy can be straight and one can be gay" (or anything that closely related to the number of gay/ bi or straight characters), besides you are totally missing my point. What I am saying is that sexuality should be a part of the personality; not that there should be a one gay, one bi and one straight.