Dragon Age Origins Lead Designer speaks out against ME3 Ending

[endtherapture]

www.brentknowles.com

Brent Knowles, who was the lead designer on Dragon Age: Origins, and one of the old guard Bioware developers (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights), and, when he quit Bioware, made the interesting observation that "Bioware is no longer the company I remember". He's talked a little bit about the ME3 situation on his blog, but they're mainly comments to other posts. Check it out at: www.brentknowles.com

One thing he did say, I thought I would share (if it's already been posted, I apologize), as it's a sentiment I happen to agree with:

"I read one recent blog post where the writer basically said "the ending was awesome because it was just like a movie" and I think she was missing the point.

It is a game. Not a movie.

And more specifically, its a role-playing game. The players are *part* of the game. Part of the process of building and experiencing the game, much more so than with most other forms of entertainment.

Entitlement is really a right, for the gamer, because they have participated, actively, in the game itself.

Again, I can't speak to the actual ending myself, because I have not played it but in general I'd say a Role-Playing Video Game Trilogy Ending should (try to) do the following:

1. Reward the player's choices throughout the series. The big stuff they did should be noted. They should *feel* like they had a unique impact on the world.

2. End on a positive note. This is really important for video games...life in general is full of s****y stuff happening all the time. When I invest a hundred hours into a game I need to walk away feeling like a hero.

When you waste a couple hours of a person's life with an artsy/depressing movie or short story or even a novel, it is more forgivable because the time spent is less. And presumably the consumer knew what they were going into when they started. Certain directors create certain styles of movie. Certain writers write specific types of fiction.

On the other hand somebody playing an epic role-playing video-game trilogy is going to *expect* to be the hero and save the universe. That's why they are playing the game. When expectations don't match reality, disappointment is created.

It might be an artistic/creative move to go with a different style of ending but I feel its the wrong choice, especially for a videogame *trilogy*. Make your middle game bleak if you want to, but end the series on a high note."


http://blog.brentknowles.com/2012/03/11/mass-effect-3-and-day-one-dlc/#disqus_thread

This makes me really sad, but I agree with Brent entirely, especially about the positive ending. It might be cliched but it works, especially in this game.

Anyone know what Brent is doing now and if he's making any new games?

 

[Hyper-space]

This is why we cannot have nice things, for we set up these absurd rules for video-games that only serve to permeate clichés and tired tropes, such as the Hollywood-esque notion that a movie (or in this case, Video-games) should only have happy-endings.

On the other hand somebody playing an epic role-playing video-game trilogy is going to *expect* to be the hero and save the universe. That's why they are playing the game. When expectations don't match reality, disappointment is created.

This explains why DA:O was so goddamn stale and bland, OF COURSE WE HAVE TO HAVE AN EVIL DARK FORCE THAT THREATENS TO CONSUME THE LAND AND ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN SAVE US.

Jesus balls, this is the stupidest thing I have ever read, its people like him that are the reason why 90% of all RPGs have derivative-as-shit stories and character archetypes.

 

[Dandark]

I agree with this. Mass Effect was a game I liked because of the choices and roleplaying. If I want to see an epic movie scene then I will go see a movie, when I pay £40 for a game, I expect a game, not a movie wannabe.

Although I would disagree that you have to have a happy ending. Sad endings can work fine too, however it should probably be made apparent that a game isn't going to be sunshine and rainbows so people who want happy endings know what they are getting into.

In a trilogy like Mass Effect which is all about player choice and in which the previous two games had the possiblity of a happy ending, the final installment should at the very least have the option of a happy ending.

 

[endtherapture]

This is why we cannot have nice things, for we set up these absurd rules for video-games that only serve to permeate clichés and tired tropes, such as the Hollywood-esque notion that a movie (or in this case, Video-games) should only have happy-endings.

On the other hand somebody playing an epic role-playing video-game trilogy is going to *expect* to be the hero and save the universe. That's why they are playing the game. When expectations don't match reality, disappointment is created.

This explains why DA:O was so goddamn stale and bland, OF COURSE WE HAVE TO HAVE AN EVIL DARK FORCE THAT THREATENS TO CONSUME THE LAND AND ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN SAVE US.

Jesus balls, this is the stupidest thing I have ever read, its people like him that are the reason why 90% of all RPGs have derivative-as-shit stories and character archetypes.

The ending of DA:O was a hell of a lot better than the ending of ME3 which tried to be crazy and philosophical and clver but just ended up ruining everything.

 

[Merrick_HLC]

I don't agree that the game has to end happily.
But it does have to have a conclusion, a sense of closure, a feeling your activities mattered.

Not just "And it ends. and no you don't get to find out anything about what happened to anyone. This is over. Go home"

To use the obvious ME3 example.

SPOILERS

Spoiler

I played Paragon pretty much the whole series
If ME3 had ended with Shepard and Anderson dying on the citadel as the Catalyst went off and destroyed the Reapers and then a montage of stuff like Fallout games did, saying 'this happened to this person' 'this place had this happen'. Then I'd be overjoyed with the game as a whole and still want to play through to see other endings. Not disappointed and siding with people protesting it even if I don't protest it myself.

 

[Kahunaburger]

This is why we cannot have nice things, for we set up these absurd rules for video-games that only serve to permeate clichés and tired tropes, such as the Hollywood-esque notion that a movie (or in this case, Video-games) should only have happy-endings.

On the other hand somebody playing an epic role-playing video-game trilogy is going to *expect* to be the hero and save the universe. That's why they are playing the game. When expectations don't match reality, disappointment is created.

This explains why DA:O was so goddamn stale and bland, OF COURSE WE HAVE TO HAVE AN EVIL DARK FORCE THAT THREATENS TO CONSUME THE LAND AND ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN SAVE US.

Jesus balls, this is the stupidest thing I have ever read, its people like him that are the reason why 90% of all RPGs have derivative-as-shit stories and character archetypes.

He actually has a point. When 99% of Mass Effect is a formulaic save-the-galaxy space opera, a ending that is inconsistent with that is going to come off as incongruous. Those endings worked in Deus Ex because they made sense in the context of the game's story, themes, and mood.

 

[Shavon513]

I agree with Brent Knowles' post. No, not every ending has to be a happy one. But they should make the happy and the sad endings available to those who want them. Instead, the ME3 endings take the player's choice away. Much of the game takes away the ability to characterize Shepard in whatever way the player wants. This is a deviation from what Bioware did best.

DA:O provided a sad ending for those who wanted one. The PC can die at the end, and yet, is still regarded as a Hero, after saving Ferelden through much effort, journey and sacrifice. It seems that Shepard in ME1 is able to be different types of heros, depending on how the player wished to characterize Shepard. IN ME2, we some of that taken away, and in the end of ME3, it's arbitrarily taken away in favor of an edgy,artistic movie script ending that clashes with the rest of the game's style.

It's sad that Bioware is pushing out some of it's top people. It speaks volumes about the future direction of the company.

 

[endtherapture]

This is why we cannot have nice things, for we set up these absurd rules for video-games that only serve to permeate clichés and tired tropes, such as the Hollywood-esque notion that a movie (or in this case, Video-games) should only have happy-endings.

On the other hand somebody playing an epic role-playing video-game trilogy is going to *expect* to be the hero and save the universe. That's why they are playing the game. When expectations don't match reality, disappointment is created.

This explains why DA:O was so goddamn stale and bland, OF COURSE WE HAVE TO HAVE AN EVIL DARK FORCE THAT THREATENS TO CONSUME THE LAND AND ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN SAVE US.

Jesus balls, this is the stupidest thing I have ever read, its people like him that are the reason why 90% of all RPGs have derivative-as-shit stories and character archetypes.

He actually has a point. When 99% of Mass Effect is a formulaic save-the-galaxy space opera, a ending that is inconsistent with that is going to come off as incongruous. Those endings worked in Deus Ex because they made sense in the context of the game's story, themes, and mood.

Exactly.

What Mass Effect did in it's ending is like destroying the Force, hyperspace, and the entire rebellion and all galactic civilisation to end the Second Death Star. Or something like that

 

[Legendsmith]

"I read one recent blog post where the writer basically said "the ending was awesome because it was just like a movie" and I think she was missing the point.

It is a game. Not a movie.

This needs to be plastered on the walls of every game writer's (maybe designer's) office. EVERY ONE.

 

[DustyDrB]

I don't agree with him at all, actually.
It didn't need a happy ending. It could have ended bleak as hell and worked. Most of Mass Effect 3 had incredibly bleak tone behind it and I loved the game right up to the end. It needed to be more character-based (because this is a character-based series). We care about what happens to Garrus, Liara, and everyone. It didn't need some poorly-implented space magic. And if Shepard needs to sacrifice himself, it doesn't need to be "just because". Knowles is missing the point.

 

[MisterShine]

He actually has a point. When 99% of Mass Effect is a formulaic save-the-galaxy space opera, a ending that is inconsistent with that is going to come off as incongruous. Those endings worked in Deus Ex because they made sense in the context of the game's story, themes, and mood.

Wat?

Mass Effect has always been about sacrifice for victory. The first game's easily most memorable and discussed moments were 'Who did you kill on Virmire?' and 'Did you genocide the Rachni'?

Mass Effect 2 started with Shepard pretty much sacrificing herself to save Joker and the Normandy being destroyed. And of course most people lost at least a few crew members on the suicide mission.

The rather bleak ending doesn't exactly fit, but the series has certainly been trending downward into the dark rather sharply, and the third game was easily the most mournful of the series, not even including the ending.

... the Hollywood-esque notion that a movie (or in this case, Video-games) should only have happy-endings.

Not the dumbest thing I've ever read, but it's definitely on the list of dumbest things I've ever read.

 

[Vegosiux]

*sigh* I really wish the people going "We want a happy ending" would stop helping.

The problem with ME3 endings doesn't seem to be that they're sad, but that they're a deus ex machina pulled out of someone's ass, invalidating the player's choices and being ridden with plot holes.

In shot, it's not the bleakness that's the problem, it's the terrible execution.

 

[endtherapture]

I don't agree with him at all, actually.
It didn't need a happy ending. It could have ended bleak as hell and worked. Most of Mass Effect 3 had incredibly bleak tone behind it and I loved the game right up to the end. It needed to be more character-based (because this is a character-based series). We care about what happens to Garrus, Liara, and everyone. It didn't need some poorly-implented space magic. And if Shepard needs to sacrifice himself, it doesn't need to be "just because". Knowles is missing the point.

I think it needed a somewhat uplifting ending. At least an ending with some hope in it.

But the ending was pretty much apocalyptic, we'd spent sooo much time working to get the best outcome for the galaxy, and what was left in my mouth after the ending was just a sour taste. There no was no hope. Everyone was going to die in the Sol system. My crew were stranded. Anderson was dead. Earth was a wasteland. There was no hope for rebuilding.

I'm fine with a bittersweet ending, but ME3's ending wasn't bittersweet, it was only bitter.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I don't agree with him at all, actually.
It didn't need a happy ending. It could have ended bleak as hell and worked. Most of Mass Effect 3 had incredibly bleak tone behind it and I loved the game right up to the end. It needed to be more character-based (because this is a character-based series). We care about what happens to Garrus, Liara, and everyone. It didn't need some poorly-implented space magic. And if Shepard needs to sacrifice himself, it doesn't need to be "just because". Knowles is missing the point.

I think that Knowles' wording was a little off, but I can understand his sentiment. It's less about making a "happy" ending than a "satisfying" ending. When you invest several hours into a story, you want to see the payoff, which was very lacking in ME3.

 

[DustyDrB]

I don't agree with him at all, actually.
It didn't need a happy ending. It could have ended bleak as hell and worked. Most of Mass Effect 3 had incredibly bleak tone behind it and I loved the game right up to the end. It needed to be more character-based (because this is a character-based series). We care about what happens to Garrus, Liara, and everyone. It didn't need some poorly-implented space magic. And if Shepard needs to sacrifice himself, it doesn't need to be "just because". Knowles is missing the point.

I think that Knowles' wording was a little off, but I can understand his sentiment. It's less about making a "happy" ending than a "satisfying" ending. When you invest several hours into a story, you want to see the payoff, which was very lacking in ME3.

It really looks like he's talking about a happy ending to me. Happy and satisfying are too different to substitute one for the other. If was talking about a satisfying ending, I'd agree with him. But as it is, I agree with this fellow (or lady, or whatever)...

*sigh* I really wish the people going "We want a happy ending" would stop helping.

The problem with ME3 endings doesn't seem to be that they're sad, but that they're a deus ex machina pulled out of someone's ass, invalidating the player's choices and being ridden with plot holes.

In shot, it's not the bleakness that's the problem, it's the terrible execution.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I don't agree with him at all, actually.
It didn't need a happy ending. It could have ended bleak as hell and worked. Most of Mass Effect 3 had incredibly bleak tone behind it and I loved the game right up to the end. It needed to be more character-based (because this is a character-based series). We care about what happens to Garrus, Liara, and everyone. It didn't need some poorly-implented space magic. And if Shepard needs to sacrifice himself, it doesn't need to be "just because". Knowles is missing the point.

I think that Knowles' wording was a little off, but I can understand his sentiment. It's less about making a "happy" ending than a "satisfying" ending. When you invest several hours into a story, you want to see the payoff, which was very lacking in ME3.

It really looks like he's talking about a happy ending to me. Happy and satisfying are too different to substitute one for the other. If was talking about a satisfying ending, I'd agree with him. But as it is, I agree with this fellow (or lady, or whatever)...

*sigh* I really wish the people going "We want a happy ending" would stop helping.

The problem with ME3 endings doesn't seem to be that they're sad, but that they're a deus ex machina pulled out of someone's ass, invalidating the player's choices and being ridden with plot holes.

In shot, it's not the bleakness that's the problem, it's the terrible execution.

True, but I'm willing to give Knowles the benefit of the doubt on this one. I've enjoyed his blog and he does make valid points. And he was the lead designer for Origins. If he truly meant that a happy ending is needed, then the absolute bleakness of some of the Origins endings wouldn't have happened. Even the endings where you screwed everything up were satisfying because you got to see the results of your actions and an addendum on what happened next.

But whatever, there's two sides to this argument and they're both valid.

 

[DustyDrB]

I don't agree with him at all, actually.
It didn't need a happy ending. It could have ended bleak as hell and worked. Most of Mass Effect 3 had incredibly bleak tone behind it and I loved the game right up to the end. It needed to be more character-based (because this is a character-based series). We care about what happens to Garrus, Liara, and everyone. It didn't need some poorly-implented space magic. And if Shepard needs to sacrifice himself, it doesn't need to be "just because". Knowles is missing the point.

I think that Knowles' wording was a little off, but I can understand his sentiment. It's less about making a "happy" ending than a "satisfying" ending. When you invest several hours into a story, you want to see the payoff, which was very lacking in ME3.

It really looks like he's talking about a happy ending to me. Happy and satisfying are too different to substitute one for the other. If was talking about a satisfying ending, I'd agree with him. But as it is, I agree with this fellow (or lady, or whatever)...

*sigh* I really wish the people going "We want a happy ending" would stop helping.

The problem with ME3 endings doesn't seem to be that they're sad, but that they're a deus ex machina pulled out of someone's ass, invalidating the player's choices and being ridden with plot holes.

In shot, it's not the bleakness that's the problem, it's the terrible execution.

True, but I'm willing to give Knowles the benefit of the doubt on this one. I've enjoyed his blog and he does make valid points. And he was the lead designer for Origins. If he truly meant that a happy ending is needed, then the absolute bleakness of some of the Origins endings wouldn't have happened. Even the endings where you screwed everything up were satisfying because you got to see the results of your actions and an addendum on what happened next.

But whatever, there's two sides to this argument and they're both valid.

I would have loved a ME3 ending where everything is hopeless, and all that's left to do is ram the Normandy into Harbinger's face (or the Reaper equivalent). Something like that. Yeah, we all die. But we die as a team, and we take a bastard out with us.

But there's probably a good reason why I don't write professionally.

 

[Emiscary]

Once again, loud and repeated thanks should be levied at OP for repost. It's good to see the community working in concert to keep information flowing.

 

[Hyper-space]

He actually has a point. When 99% of Mass Effect is a formulaic save-the-galaxy space opera, a ending that is inconsistent with that is going to come off as incongruous. Those endings worked in Deus Ex because they made sense in the context of the game's story, themes, and mood.

WHY ARE WE NOT PRAISING THEM FOR BREAKING THE TIRED OLD FORMULA? SUBVERTING OUR EXPECTATIONS OF A FORMULAIC ENDING IS A GOOD THING FOR IT MEANS THAT THEY HAVE REALIZED THEIR MISTAKES.

WHYYYYYYYYYYY

The ending of DA:O was a hell of a lot better than the ending of ME3 which tried to be crazy and philosophical and clver but just ended up ruining everything.

You mean when you fight a lot of Darkspawn then WITH THE POWER OF THE CHOSEN ONE you kill some dragon?

Yeah, it sure was great.

 

[Merrick_HLC]

I don't agree with him at all, actually.
It didn't need a happy ending. It could have ended bleak as hell and worked. Most of Mass Effect 3 had incredibly bleak tone behind it and I loved the game right up to the end. It needed to be more character-based (because this is a character-based series). We care about what happens to Garrus, Liara, and everyone. It didn't need some poorly-implented space magic. And if Shepard needs to sacrifice himself, it doesn't need to be "just because". Knowles is missing the point.

I think that Knowles' wording was a little off, but I can understand his sentiment. It's less about making a "happy" ending than a "satisfying" ending. When you invest several hours into a story, you want to see the payoff, which was very lacking in ME3.

It really looks like he's talking about a happy ending to me. Happy and satisfying are too different to substitute one for the other. If was talking about a satisfying ending, I'd agree with him. But as it is, I agree with this fellow (or lady, or whatever)...

*sigh* I really wish the people going "We want a happy ending" would stop helping.

The problem with ME3 endings doesn't seem to be that they're sad, but that they're a deus ex machina pulled out of someone's ass, invalidating the player's choices and being ridden with plot holes.

In shot, it's not the bleakness that's the problem, it's the terrible execution.

True, but I'm willing to give Knowles the benefit of the doubt on this one. I've enjoyed his blog and he does make valid points. And he was the lead designer for Origins. If he truly meant that a happy ending is needed, then the absolute bleakness of some of the Origins endings wouldn't have happened. Even the endings where you screwed everything up were satisfying because you got to see the results of your actions and an addendum on what happened next.

But whatever, there's two sides to this argument and they're both valid.

I would have loved a ME3 ending where everything is hopeless, and all that's left to do is ram the Normandy into Harbinger's face (or the Reaper equivalent). Something like that. Yeah, we all die. But we die as a team, and we take a bastard out with us.

But there's probably a good reason why I don't write professionally.

Actually that as one of the "Low preparedness" endings would have been pretty badass.