DRM, Censorship, you brought it on yourselves.
- Thread starter Lord Krunk
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DRM- you pay for the game, you play it. You buy a new graphics card, more RAM and a new CPU, say goodbye to your game (god forbid if you were to get a new motherboard). You then have a useless game on your hands. This either means that you have a rather costly coaster that you wouldn't have played again, or a game that is taunting you because you can't play it any more.
Pirate that same game- You don't pay for it. You can upgrade as many times as you like, never have to worry about losing the game, and if you don't like the game you can chuck it without the feeling of wasting money.
The people who pirate games (and yes, I place myself amongst this number) are experiencing the software before they shell out. "Oh, but you should read reviews" I hear you cry! No. No-one can tell me what I will think of a game until I play it. They might come close, but they can't tell me exactly. I personally thought Painkiller was shite, and if I'd have spent my money on "a gun that fires shurikens and lightning", I'd be annoyed. As it was, I was just merely peeved that it had taken up 2 hours of download time.
Piracy on movies- I think of this more as "digital television" as I tend to delete movies after I watch them. If I want to see a movie that night, I set the download up in the morning, watch it that night. I think of it as compensation for BBC showing some beardy twat on a nature show instead of 2Fast2Furious.
Also, I know the argument "but you shouldn't have the experience before you get it!" has been used before. I say just two words to these people. Test. Drive. You pop down to your local garage, rather than forking out money for a car that you will *probably* like, I'd prefer to know beforehand that the shifter sticks in third or that the car wobbles over the speed of 60mph.
If anything, the pirates are a sign for the devs to step their game up. If your audience don't think that your past 3 years work is worth paying for, you're doing something wrong.
edit: Ironically, I downloaded NFS most wanted a week ago. It's rubbish, I'm deleting it as we speak
Pirate that same game- You don't pay for it. You can upgrade as many times as you like, never have to worry about losing the game, and if you don't like the game you can chuck it without the feeling of wasting money.
The people who pirate games (and yes, I place myself amongst this number) are experiencing the software before they shell out. "Oh, but you should read reviews" I hear you cry! No. No-one can tell me what I will think of a game until I play it. They might come close, but they can't tell me exactly. I personally thought Painkiller was shite, and if I'd have spent my money on "a gun that fires shurikens and lightning", I'd be annoyed. As it was, I was just merely peeved that it had taken up 2 hours of download time.
Piracy on movies- I think of this more as "digital television" as I tend to delete movies after I watch them. If I want to see a movie that night, I set the download up in the morning, watch it that night. I think of it as compensation for BBC showing some beardy twat on a nature show instead of 2Fast2Furious.
Also, I know the argument "but you shouldn't have the experience before you get it!" has been used before. I say just two words to these people. Test. Drive. You pop down to your local garage, rather than forking out money for a car that you will *probably* like, I'd prefer to know beforehand that the shifter sticks in third or that the car wobbles over the speed of 60mph.
If anything, the pirates are a sign for the devs to step their game up. If your audience don't think that your past 3 years work is worth paying for, you're doing something wrong.
edit: Ironically, I downloaded NFS most wanted a week ago. It's rubbish, I'm deleting it as we speak
I honestly wish this discussion would end. This is more an endless battle of morals. Pro-Piracy and Anti-Piracy? C'mon now. No one is going to win because while one side has something right, the other side has right too. Regardless if you think the other side is wrong, opinions are opinions. So please, just quit it. This is as bad as people arguing as people arguing if abortion is right or not, and don't say it's not because it is. "It hurts someone, helps someone else, blah blah blah."
The only way there will be a definite answer if you brainwash everyone to think that way.... and that's not going to happen. The End.
The only way there will be a definite answer if you brainwash everyone to think that way.... and that's not going to happen. The End.
I PIRATE THINGS...and I'm proud of it.
I dont pirate game's for a good reason which is that i feel happy paying for a game i will enjoy but with movie's you watch it and say either: "oh that was awesome" and go around quoting it for the rest of the day or "that was a waste of 2 and a half hours and my money" so i watch it ont he internet because that way my bet is safe at least im not spending anything if the movie is bad. I pirate things because i bought a £499 iphone 3g and i REFUSE to pay apple any more money just to make that Iphone worth something. I also pirate things BECAUSE of DRM if i pirate it then there will be no DRM on my music so why complain about it. I watch movie's on the internet because i don't have to buy it. It's being smart with my money and the spare money that I keep from pirating goes into buying stuff like the iphone which is agreably a rip-off but at least im not paying for the music (and if i didn't spend the money on an iphone i can go buy a game because piratin g game's take's out the fun. I praise the people who devote time into putting material on the internet so that i dont have to buy it.
I dont pirate game's for a good reason which is that i feel happy paying for a game i will enjoy but with movie's you watch it and say either: "oh that was awesome" and go around quoting it for the rest of the day or "that was a waste of 2 and a half hours and my money" so i watch it ont he internet because that way my bet is safe at least im not spending anything if the movie is bad. I pirate things because i bought a £499 iphone 3g and i REFUSE to pay apple any more money just to make that Iphone worth something. I also pirate things BECAUSE of DRM if i pirate it then there will be no DRM on my music so why complain about it. I watch movie's on the internet because i don't have to buy it. It's being smart with my money and the spare money that I keep from pirating goes into buying stuff like the iphone which is agreably a rip-off but at least im not paying for the music (and if i didn't spend the money on an iphone i can go buy a game because piratin g game's take's out the fun. I praise the people who devote time into putting material on the internet so that i dont have to buy it.
I think one of the biggest issues isn't if it's right or wrong, it's where piracy goes from this point on. Piracy will not be stopped, it's been around since "Don't copy that floppy" to DRM. ISPs can't even effectively single people out to find who's a pirate and who isn't, so it's very difficult to catch people (especially those who know what they're doing).
So what will the industry do to stop piracy? In my opinion, the industry needs to find a way to embrace it. If companies can utilize torrenting I feel we might find a win-win situation. If that's at all possible- I have no idea. But we have millions of people pirating everything, so what's the next step. Send millions of people to jail, whom you can't beyond-a-doubt prove really pirated anything?
There has to be another way.
So what will the industry do to stop piracy? In my opinion, the industry needs to find a way to embrace it. If companies can utilize torrenting I feel we might find a win-win situation. If that's at all possible- I have no idea. But we have millions of people pirating everything, so what's the next step. Send millions of people to jail, whom you can't beyond-a-doubt prove really pirated anything?
There has to be another way.
I never said that. I said it would be downloaded a lot less than now.Jimmyjames said:
Again, you're seeing money where there isn't any. What part of "will never buy a game" is too difficult for you to understand.Baby Tea said:
You're switching from one group of pirates to another, but neither will ever buy a game without a download available.
*sigh*
Once again, what part of "no demo, no purchase" is too difficult?
If you wouldn't pay for a game you downloaded that's your problem. I enjoyed it, so I'll pay for it.
First you're telling me to use reviews to see if I like a game. Now you're saying it's my fault for not agreeing with them.
Tell me where in the Netherlands I can rent a pc game, especially with this no return policy when the seal is broken in stores, and all my friends are console gamers that prefer very different games.
I also never said piracy would stop, I know there will always be people that download games. But that are also not the people that that part was about. I don't want to spend 40 minutes trying to find what program causes SecuRom to refuse my installation. I don't want to install 5 other programs I'm never going to use before I can play a game I bought. All I want, is to insert the game in my dvd drive, enter the cd-key and be able to play after installation. If this is only possible by downloading the game, then so be it.
Compared to other "old style" shooters, Jericho is great. It's not a game that should be compared with Half Life or Halo. It's a game that should be compared to Serious Sam, Painkiller or Duke Nukem.
There are few quality related things that anyone wants from anything they buy, be it a dvd, car or game. One of those things is that it actually works. A good game shouldn't need 7 patches just as a car shouldn't break down 5 minutes after purchase.
This is perhaps the most well-written and thought-out statement against software piracy I've ever seen in a forum post. Well done, Lord Krunk!
I think that the incentive to pirate would be less if companies cared more about their customers.
(I.E. Valve's working to make a simulations release of L4D)
But just like in real life, if you don't have the money for it, you don't get to have it.
Why do you think I still don't even have Fable, or Kingdom Hearts 2?
(I.E. Valve's working to make a simulations release of L4D)
But just like in real life, if you don't have the money for it, you don't get to have it.
Why do you think I still don't even have Fable, or Kingdom Hearts 2?
I don't support piracy on any level. I have never pirated a game. The closest I have ever come to pirating anything is watching an anime series online to see if I like it, and this is because A) I generally do not like the vast majority of anime, so I refuse to go out and blindly purchase the overpriced DVDs without knowing if I'll like it or not, and B) there usually isn't any alternative to watch an anime before buying it, as it might not come on American TV. If I actually LIKE the anime then I'll buy the boxed set when it comes out. But when it comes to games, I never even consider the idea of piracy. This is not only because there are plenty of legal ways to try before I buy (Such as renting, demos, or burrowing from friends) but because I am in college to learn the programming skills I will need to get a job in the industry. Eventually, with any luck, I'll be able to get a job at a game company. Because of my profession of choice, games will eventually be putting food on my table, and piracy significantly hurts my ability to do that.
I've heard every excuse pirates come up with, and every single one of them are total bullshit. I've heard the "well, they make too much money, they won't lose anything if I pirate the game." What the pirate fails to realize is that hundreds of thousands of other people just like him are thinking the same thing...And in an industry where games cost millions and years to make, every sale counts, and all those loses start to add up. Then there is the "I'm sticking it to THA MAN!!" No you aren't, you are proving to "tha man" that their DRM policies are totally justified. I've heard the "well, I wouldn't have bought it anyway, the game sucks." Well, if it sucks so bad, why did you download a pirated version and play it for hours?
By far the most ridiculous "justification" is "I can't afford it, so that makes it right." What the fuck? Since when did THAT become legal? I can't afford a 56 inch HDTV that supports 1080p, does that make it right for me to walk into Best Buy, yank one off the wall, and walk out with it? Or how about a car. I want a fancy import car, but certainly can't afford that. Should I just go to the rich neighborhood and steal one out of the drive way?
No matter how you look at it, piracy is theft, albeit not a physical one, and any excuse you make is weak at best, downright ass backwards at worst. It AMAZES me how pirates haven't stopped to consider the fact that, if game companies keep taking big loses from piracy, then they can't afford to keep making games...And that the pirates effectively ruined the whole industry for everyone. But, as I pointed out, pirates do this because they don't care and don't want to spend the money, so they obviously don't give two shits about anyone else.
But, at the same time, I don't support the sort of DRM measures that some publishers take. I certainly see the need to protect your products from theft, and really can't blame them for trying, but most of these countermeasures do nothing but screw over legitimate customers. Really, three installs? What if my computer goes belly up after buying the game? Now I can only install the game one more time. This stuff does nothing but hurt the paying customer, and in fact, it makes piracy look like a better option because the cracked version won't have these issues.
It also effectively kills the ability to lend games to friends who are unsure about dropping $50 on a particular game. It seems that publishers forget that word of mouth and lending games to friends is a good way to increase sales...But the publishers just think "blah, those burrowing kids will just either not buy the game or pirate it...We need to make it impossible to lend PC games."
Publishers need to work out a middle ground DRM: One that helps combat piracy, but not at the expense of legitimate customers.
I've heard every excuse pirates come up with, and every single one of them are total bullshit. I've heard the "well, they make too much money, they won't lose anything if I pirate the game." What the pirate fails to realize is that hundreds of thousands of other people just like him are thinking the same thing...And in an industry where games cost millions and years to make, every sale counts, and all those loses start to add up. Then there is the "I'm sticking it to THA MAN!!" No you aren't, you are proving to "tha man" that their DRM policies are totally justified. I've heard the "well, I wouldn't have bought it anyway, the game sucks." Well, if it sucks so bad, why did you download a pirated version and play it for hours?
By far the most ridiculous "justification" is "I can't afford it, so that makes it right." What the fuck? Since when did THAT become legal? I can't afford a 56 inch HDTV that supports 1080p, does that make it right for me to walk into Best Buy, yank one off the wall, and walk out with it? Or how about a car. I want a fancy import car, but certainly can't afford that. Should I just go to the rich neighborhood and steal one out of the drive way?
No matter how you look at it, piracy is theft, albeit not a physical one, and any excuse you make is weak at best, downright ass backwards at worst. It AMAZES me how pirates haven't stopped to consider the fact that, if game companies keep taking big loses from piracy, then they can't afford to keep making games...And that the pirates effectively ruined the whole industry for everyone. But, as I pointed out, pirates do this because they don't care and don't want to spend the money, so they obviously don't give two shits about anyone else.
But, at the same time, I don't support the sort of DRM measures that some publishers take. I certainly see the need to protect your products from theft, and really can't blame them for trying, but most of these countermeasures do nothing but screw over legitimate customers. Really, three installs? What if my computer goes belly up after buying the game? Now I can only install the game one more time. This stuff does nothing but hurt the paying customer, and in fact, it makes piracy look like a better option because the cracked version won't have these issues.
It also effectively kills the ability to lend games to friends who are unsure about dropping $50 on a particular game. It seems that publishers forget that word of mouth and lending games to friends is a good way to increase sales...But the publishers just think "blah, those burrowing kids will just either not buy the game or pirate it...We need to make it impossible to lend PC games."
Publishers need to work out a middle ground DRM: One that helps combat piracy, but not at the expense of legitimate customers.
I'm sorry. Downloading music is one thing. Movies...a bit in the gray area. Games? No, just no. You may try to justify it by saying "Well, they deserve it," or "I'm only doing it until I can afford the game", or "I'm just trying it out before I buy it". All those excuses boil down to one thing: "I don't want to spend my money on a game I might not like, so rather than take a risk like every legitimate customer, I'm going to rip off the developers and save money." The only reason you are doing it is because you think you deserve the game when you aren't willing to buy it, and that is bullshit.
Pretty much the same with others on being anti-drm, I used to get no-cd stuff because I don't like disc swapping especially since it wears out the disc faster, had a copy of diablo 2 crack in the drive because back then Blizzard's discs were especially thin, and since it didn't stop loading even during gameplay, it overheated. I liked when I could shop used stores until the day came where you can't find any used pc game copies anywhere. In its own way drm really hurts the gaming industry more than the piracy. Pirates steal regardless and its just costing the developers and those who buy the products more not to mention killed that potential industry. But now most of my games just come from steam, it's easier and I agree with corroded about how steam games generally don't come with the drm hassle.
There is an analogy in the OP that is both overused and false: intellectual property is not akin to physical property. What I mean is you can't compare copying a song or a game from someone else without paying for it to stealing someone else's car. The crucial difference here is that there is no loss of property from the person that was copied from. What was lost was the exclusive right of distribution: a proper physical analogy would be to go with friends to a fast food branch and order only one drink that can be re-filled for free for the whole group, assuming that the drink fountain never runs out of its commodity. That would be the equivalent of piracy. When people torrent, the seeder loses nothing, and that's why 'piracy' is not stealing. What it is is exchanging property outside of the law.
There is an ethical justification for piracy, and that is the belief that once something is bought, it is one's own to do with as one pleases, including making copies of it if possible. You can compare brand copyright to purchasing food and not being allowed to let anyone else share it. It is very uncommon to see people making fuss over sharing food that they bought on their own with friends or family, so what's the difference with music and games?
There is a line that is drawn in every distinction, where forgiveness ends and punishment begins. Equivalent acts should not be treated differently by the law, and so we must ask ourselves what values we prefer as a society. If it turns out that people prefer to share the music that they bought with others and commit 'piracy' (a term which used to mean going around and raiding port towns), then the system must be changed to the will of the majority, and not the will of the industry. It is up to us, the people, to stand for what we believe in. If record and game publishers stand to lose out if the people wish for a different system, then tough luck. That is democracy.
The reason the Escapist doesn't ban anyone who voices out opinions that are anti-Escapist is the existence of the first amendment of the American Constitution. I don't mean to sound condescending, but never forget its importance. I say this despite the fact that one may still be banned from this message board for voicing controversial opinions, and while there is a terms agreement that was signed, one must first ask if it goes with or without a sacrifice of ethics to be censored here. I, for one, disagree with the practice of censorship but I agreed to play by the rules in order to post here. That is, I consciously chose to sacrifice a bit to enjoy more, because in this instant, I'm not risking much.
What strikes me as most petulant is when a mob of people slam an opinion or stance that, in and of itself, is completely legitimate, and then use the stance of the establishment as justification. What I'm saying is that just because it hurts the industry, piracy is not necessarily a bad thing, just like a controversial opinion isn't necessarily a bad thing.
There is an ethical justification for piracy, and that is the belief that once something is bought, it is one's own to do with as one pleases, including making copies of it if possible. You can compare brand copyright to purchasing food and not being allowed to let anyone else share it. It is very uncommon to see people making fuss over sharing food that they bought on their own with friends or family, so what's the difference with music and games?
There is a line that is drawn in every distinction, where forgiveness ends and punishment begins. Equivalent acts should not be treated differently by the law, and so we must ask ourselves what values we prefer as a society. If it turns out that people prefer to share the music that they bought with others and commit 'piracy' (a term which used to mean going around and raiding port towns), then the system must be changed to the will of the majority, and not the will of the industry. It is up to us, the people, to stand for what we believe in. If record and game publishers stand to lose out if the people wish for a different system, then tough luck. That is democracy.
The reason the Escapist doesn't ban anyone who voices out opinions that are anti-Escapist is the existence of the first amendment of the American Constitution. I don't mean to sound condescending, but never forget its importance. I say this despite the fact that one may still be banned from this message board for voicing controversial opinions, and while there is a terms agreement that was signed, one must first ask if it goes with or without a sacrifice of ethics to be censored here. I, for one, disagree with the practice of censorship but I agreed to play by the rules in order to post here. That is, I consciously chose to sacrifice a bit to enjoy more, because in this instant, I'm not risking much.
What strikes me as most petulant is when a mob of people slam an opinion or stance that, in and of itself, is completely legitimate, and then use the stance of the establishment as justification. What I'm saying is that just because it hurts the industry, piracy is not necessarily a bad thing, just like a controversial opinion isn't necessarily a bad thing.
What makes me laugh is that the thing dissuading piracy in the 'old days' was a copy usually had inferior quality, or for other reasons wasn't as good. "Fair enough, i'll just buy the full thing."
Nowadays, it's the other way round, cracked software is MILES better (None of that crap about worrying over the re-install, no point considering it's resale value anyway, not needing the stupid disc in the god damned tray). So now the argument is 'Pirates are evil and care about noone but themselves! Think of the Game Developers!'. I don't get how people can't see the way it's meant to go, the future of PC games.
Steam, Battle.Net, Subscriptions.
Buy an account on a server rather than buying the actual software! When you give someone software, it's a self contained unit with everything the game ever needs. When you give them an account for an online server, they need the developer, you can't cut them out (without severely limiting the enjoyment of it (note: WoW private servers suck compared to the 'real' ones) )
I imagine people who moan about piracy these days would have been people moaning about the effect Cars had on Horse Breeders. 'He has to feed his kids! Cars aren't as good as a living breathing transport! If you keep this up, the entire horse-raising industry will go down, you monsters!'
It's funny to read in any case.
Nowadays, it's the other way round, cracked software is MILES better (None of that crap about worrying over the re-install, no point considering it's resale value anyway, not needing the stupid disc in the god damned tray). So now the argument is 'Pirates are evil and care about noone but themselves! Think of the Game Developers!'. I don't get how people can't see the way it's meant to go, the future of PC games.
Steam, Battle.Net, Subscriptions.
Buy an account on a server rather than buying the actual software! When you give someone software, it's a self contained unit with everything the game ever needs. When you give them an account for an online server, they need the developer, you can't cut them out (without severely limiting the enjoyment of it (note: WoW private servers suck compared to the 'real' ones) )
I imagine people who moan about piracy these days would have been people moaning about the effect Cars had on Horse Breeders. 'He has to feed his kids! Cars aren't as good as a living breathing transport! If you keep this up, the entire horse-raising industry will go down, you monsters!'
It's funny to read in any case.
How did we bring censorship upon ourselves? Why the fuck do we censor things anyway?
I'd bring up the "bill of rights" and whatnot but not everyone here is in the states. Even though I think "BoR" should apply to everyone.
(Oh and my 2 cents - piracy is an excuse to use this to hinder second hand sales and trading. Obviously if we wanted "piracy" to be stopped and hindered, we'd do something more sensible than just make an easily crackable software that only limits installs and nothing else. Like say, registering ****ing CD KEYS!)
I'd bring up the "bill of rights" and whatnot but not everyone here is in the states. Even though I think "BoR" should apply to everyone.
(Oh and my 2 cents - piracy is an excuse to use this to hinder second hand sales and trading. Obviously if we wanted "piracy" to be stopped and hindered, we'd do something more sensible than just make an easily crackable software that only limits installs and nothing else. Like say, registering ****ing CD KEYS!)
Bullshit you didn't say that. It was a direct quote. Maybe it wasn't what you meant, but it was what you wrote.Flour said:
Oh I forgot to mention Lord Krunk....
De-rez beat you to it. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/de-rez/508-Piracy]
De-rez beat you to it. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/de-rez/508-Piracy]