DRM, Censorship, you brought it on yourselves.

[Lord Krunk]

one mans 'justification' is another mans simple truth. ive had a few runins with tomato but in this cases hes 100% right.

lord Krunk the way you continue to try and defend game companys that have screwed over every person whos ever bought a game in one way or another is like trying too put a happy face on the Nazis. what they do is not just a little bit wrong but its in the realm of EPIC wrong. you may call it 'justification' but everyone who has ever been fucked by a video games company and that means pretty much anyone who has ever bought a video game ....... well we call it justice.

game companys will either learn the lession that their customers are tired of getting fucked , or they will go out of business and the next batch of companys to open their doors will have that same choice either make a good product and offer a good service or dont even bother. we are ALL tired of being fucked and at this point there isnt an iota of sympath or even tolerance for any game company out there today. your pissing in the wind if you think otherwise.

The difference is that the Nazis are criminals; and who killed people for really stupid reasons and justifications. The way I see it, the way you talk about piracy is if you're putting a smiley face on the Nazis.

Justice, showing a company trying to earn revenue who's boss, whatever way you see it, it's still wrong.

The thing is, you continuously see EA and other big companies as the 'faceless evil'. What about the people working for that 'faceless evil'? They can't support themselves, their families, or even make more games if they can't get payed for it. In 'sticking it to the man', you are really killing hundreds, or even thousands of jobs.

(Well, you might say, 'Oh, but just one pirate will not kill thousands of jobs, your argument is invalid'. Well, what about the thousands of people who pirate as well? It adds up.

And anyway, what did they do wrong to screw you over? As far as I've heard, the honest people don't seem to care about DRM anywhere near as much as you balloon it up to be. Once again, it's just another one of those stupid 'justifications' that I put in my OP.

So, now, tell me how great piracy is again. I'm dying to hear it.

True that. I've had some pretty good arguments, but none that I haven't picked apart yet. Come on guys, give me something substantial!

snip

Yet another 'justification' to add to my library. As much as you persist in believing it, they are not reasons.

As for 'DRM being all about killing the second-hand industry', I don't disagree with you there. In fact, I heartily agree with you, and have even said in the OP that it was a terrible attempt at screwing people over.
But the fact is, pirates caused it. They used it as an excuse, and now honest gamers are paying the price for it. That's the reality here, and it has to stop before it gets worse.

The video game crash was brought upon by a flooding of the market, not piracy....

It was caused because people stopped buying their games, and because of the publishers' predictions causing them no make idiotic decisions, ultimately leading to their downfall.

I see no difference.

Wait what?
That response was very convoluted. Yes they stopped buying their games, because there were too many options. I know it doesn't make any sense but if you give people too muchchoice, they tend to shy away from those kinds of products. Piracy wasn't one of the main factors.
Quoted from wikipedia: "There were several reasons for the crash, but the main cause was over saturation of the market with dozens of consoles and hundreds of mostly low-quality games"

EDIT: I'm not advocating piracy in any way. I'm just correcting one of your facts.

Too many options weren't the cause of the crash, just a crappy and half-assed industry, as well as executive stupidity resulted in a black hole, sucking the gaming industry in with it.

Now, while my post may have been convoluted, it also gives an abridged view of what happened. Looking at that view, I'm seeing the same thing here, right in this thread. Like I said before, it needs to stop before it gets worse.

While I understand the problem with too much choice, it still doesn't act as a justification. Where some shy away from it, some embrace it. It's merely an expansion of the industry, which some put under this trope: 'It's popular, now it sucks [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitle6cd1cskka05i]'.

Now, why people use that trope (vaguely) as a 'justification' for Piracy, it still doesn't make it right. Too many choices? Why are you pirating again? If you had too much choice and couldn't decide what to get, what the hell are you pirating?

 

[Lord Krunk]

New update, I have included a 6th 'justification' on the OP. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.86308.1275042]

 

[Wyatt]

The thing is, you continuously see EA and other big companies as the 'faceless evil'. What about the people working for that 'faceless evil'? They can't support themselves, their families, or even make more games if they can't get payed for it. In 'sticking it to the man', you are really killing hundreds, or even thousands of jobs.

(Well, you might say, 'Oh, but just one pirate will not kill thousands of jobs, your argument is invalid'. Well, what about the thousands of people who pirate as well? It adds up.

And anyway, what did they do wrong to screw you over? As far as I've heard, the honest people don't seem to care about DRM anywhere near as much as you balloon it up to be. Once again, it's just another one of those stupid 'justifications' that I put in my OP.

frankly i dont give a shit about the 'poor guys' who may or may not lose their jobs, if they have talent they will get another one, maybe next time with a company that doesnt go out of their way to fuck over their CUSTOMERS. should i continue to buy tainted peanuts because the 'poor souls' that work in that georga plant might lose their jobs? please.

as for what they do to screw ME over, well now about .. shit ALL of the games i own for my PC (about 60 at lst count) ALL of them have required patches, not 'expantions', not 'upgrades' but PATCHES to get them to even work as they were advertised too, and about 1/4 of them STILL arent 'fixed'. thats fucking number 1.

3 of the games have had DRM that required me DAYS to get rid of by the time i found out how to do it. and the FIRST time i ended up having to format my PC, all done without me being aware of it BEFORE i bought the game. thats fucking number 2.

and in recient times (IE the last couple years) ive bought more than one game that was obviously half finished (example to numerous to list) and was expected to buy an 'expantion pack' for it inside of 4 months after the original shiped just to compleat the basic game. thats fucking number 3.

i didnt mention a total lack of tech support after purchase from some of the biggest names in the business while the small time companys have tech support out their ass, nor did i mention the flat out LIES we are told in advertisments about the 'features' the games will support (such as multiplayer) that are left out and 'expected to be added later with a patch' only to never see them, nor the patch at all for that matter, and there many many many more examples shall i go on?

its not JUST the DRM that we are talking about here, its all of it, it just happenes to be that the DRM has officialy crossed the line from 'shady' to out right criminal, as to who agrees with me, have you READ the replys in this thread? have you read threads like this in other forums? do you get your views anyplace BESIDES wwwisuckeaass.com? you seems to be assuming that anyone who doesnt support your views is somehow dishonist? well i MY case your wrong if you make that assumption. i might be an asshole but im an HONIST asshole and if i was pirating games or anything else i say so its not like the Mods around here are gunna come to my house with the local police and lock me up for stealing games now is it?

i would simply say to you to stop for a moment and actualy take what im saying at face value. assume for a moment taht we ARENT all liers and thieves and just mull over the points we have made. im not asking you to agree but you would certianly be a better person for it, or atleast SOUND like a more intelligent one anyhow.

 

[Lord Krunk]

snip

Okay, you want face value?

Reported.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

snip

Yet another 'justification' to add to my library. As much as you persist in believing it, they are not reasons.

As for 'DRM being all about killing the second-hand industry', I don't disagree with you there. In fact, I heartily agree with you, and have even said in the OP that it was a terrible attempt at screwing people over.
But the fact is, pirates caused it. They used it as an excuse, and now honest gamers are paying the price for it. That's the reality here, and it has to stop before it gets worse.

No Krunk. Those are reasons, not justifications. Learn to read what people are saying and not just project what you think they are saying, because frankly everyone is getting tired of this. There is a reason piracy is rife. I am not attempting to justify it, I am NOT SAYING IT'S ALRIGHT, so cut that kind of implication out right now. I am explaining to you WHY the situation is the way it is, NOT SAYING IT SHOULD BE LIKE THIS.

A justification = Piracy should be practiced because ____________.

A reason = Piracy has become so rife because _______________.

Do you see the difference? Because I'll bet every single other person who is reading this has no problem. Things happen for a REASON, I am explaining those reasons and explaining that piracy is, for the most part, the fault of the game companies themselves.

Do you get it now?

 

[5mj7R7yf4Dwr3gdZyyu9PeGNwYjlNrjzuh3iTXQG]

While I pirated 16K Apple II games rampantly in the '80s, I stopped when two things changed, namely, I could afford to pay, and games started being produced by development teams, as opposed to a single person, and the content was significantly more. Team group photos and thick documentation with tons of relevant detailed content were both big motivators to go honest.

In the '90s, the game industry was quite conscious that most of us were on a limited income, especially after we tricked out our computers to be able to play their games adequately, and long-term replay value was a key element in game design.

Nowadays, we're lucky if we get a patch released in a timely fashion and the game is popular enough to encourage user-content, the last bastion of replayability. Furthermore, the industry is quite content to eschew proper documentation in lieu of a game guide sold separately. Added content like historical notes, unit illustrations, world guides and spell lists? All a thing of the past.

And yet, until this year, I've not had need to rely on torrent sites to acquire viable versions of the games for which I've paid.

DRM has been in place for a while now. Any time you are forced use your game CD as a key to unlock the game, any moment you are thwarted from making a legitimate archive, that's DRM software stopping you. We've tolerated this for a long time. Too long, as opined by some.

No, what's enraged the superuser community (with which the pirate community intersects) is that games would require *online activation*. We tolerated it from Steam because it was the sequel to (what many folks think is) the greatest game of all time, and HL2 delivered. But even then, we gave Valve sour looks. They've only vindicated themselves by making a point to give us unlimited installs on any system we own ever, for as long as Valve lives. (And an alleged promise that a comprehensive update and decryption package will released with Valve's dying breath, should it ever come to that.)

But Bioshock is not Half Life 2, and neither is Spore, and we already feel sour about the activation of HL2, but now companies (especially EA) are issuing limited installs before having to ask "pretty please". We didn't take this bullshit from Microsoft when it came to Vista, the next freaking Windows operating system. We're certainly not going to do it for a game, even if it's Portal (which it's not).

To the contrary, we see this right up there with Palpatine demanding emergency powers. The less companies are willing to trust their customer base, the less we're inclined to trust the companies. With good reason. We've gotten screwed plenty without dinner or a show to speak of.

This sort of thing leads legitimate users (such as myself) to turn to the underground to circumvent unfair control practices. We did this when WGA reared its ugly head. We're doing it now with the latest batch of DRMs, including SecuROM 7.0.

It's especially creepy that, like WGA, DRM kits are installed without user consent, and are a mother-beast to remove.

 

[Wyatt]

snip

Okay, you want face value?

Reported.

thats your right i suppose but in a thread you start out by accusing anyone who has had to deal with DMR and censorship issues as having 'brung it on themselves' and than when those of us who HAVE had to deal with this stuff and have never ONCE pirated anything object you go on to basicaly accuse anyone who doesnt agree with you as being a lier or a thief, what with your continued additions of 'justifications' and so on, id be mighty careful of how you 'justify' clicking the report button.

ive been a mod in more than one active community and if i was viewing this thread id be thinking you got what you wanted when you chose the very title for the thread, a fight over the subject. you HAD to know that not everyone who has dealt with DRM and censorship is a theif or a lier but you made the post anyway. a little late to cry foul now when you got the argument you were trolling for in the fist place isnt it?

im not a theif, im not a lier, and i dont pirate so i certianly havent done anything to 'bring this on myself'. if your upset that my replys to YOUR post point this out and show why your so compleatly wrong thats just too bad. maybe you should think a bit before you lump innocent people in with liers, theives, and pirats next time.

try a title that go's soemthing like this.

pirats, theieves, and liers have brought DRM and censorship on you. the arguments wont change in responce but atleast YOU wont have started out by accusing the entire gaming universe of being scum in your topic header.

 

[Lord Krunk]

snip

Yet another 'justification' to add to my library. As much as you persist in believing it, they are not reasons.

As for 'DRM being all about killing the second-hand industry', I don't disagree with you there. In fact, I heartily agree with you, and have even said in the OP that it was a terrible attempt at screwing people over.
But the fact is, pirates caused it. They used it as an excuse, and now honest gamers are paying the price for it. That's the reality here, and it has to stop before it gets worse.

No Krunk. Those are reasons, not justifications. Learn to read what people are saying and not just project what you think they are saying, because frankly everyone is getting tired of this. There is a reason piracy is rife. I am not attempting to justify it, I am NOT SAYING IT'S ALRIGHT, so cut that kind of implication out right now. I am explaining to you WHY the situation is the way it is, NOT SAYING IT SHOULD BE LIKE THIS.

A justification = Piracy should be practiced because ____________.

A reason = Piracy has become so rife because _______________.

Do you see the difference? Because I'll bet every single other person who is reading this has no problem. Things happen for a REASON, I am explaining those reasons and explaining that piracy is, for the most part, the fault of the game companies themselves.

Do you get it now?

thats your right i suppose but in a thread you start out by accusing anyone who has had to deal with DMR and censorship issues as having 'brung it on themselves' and than when those of us who HAVE had to deal with this stuff and have never ONCE pirated anything object you go on to basicaly accuse anyone who doesnt agree with you as being a lier or a thief, what with your continued additions of 'justifications' and so on, id be mighty careful of how you 'justify' clicking the report button.

ive been a mod in more than one active community and if i was viewing this thread id be thinking you got what you wanted when you chose the very title for the thread, a fight over the subject. you HAD to know that not everyone who has dealt with DRM and censorship is a theif or a lier but you made the post anyway. a little late to cry foul now when you got the argument you were trolling for in the fist place isnt it?

im not a theif, im not a lier, and i dont pirate so i certianly havent done anything to 'bring this on myself'. if your upset that my replys to YOUR post point this out and show why your so compleatly wrong thats just too bad. maybe you should think a bit before you lump innocent people in with liers, theives, and pirats next time.

try a title that go's soemthing like this.

pirats, theieves, and liers have brought DRM and censorship on you. the arguments wont change in responce but atleast YOU wont have started out by accusing the entire gaming universe of being scum in your topic header.

I do understand where both of you are coming from, but the main reason why people pirate is not because of DRM.

It's because they just don't want to pay.

The purpose of this thread is to bring this fact to light, and deconstruct the fact that every 'reason you're being screwed over' by the big companies are caused by piracy. Directly, piracy is killing the industry by revenue theft, and indirectly it is being happened by the big companies driving away customers with dumb and inconvenient security measures in order to protect their revenue.

I didn't create this thread to troll, or even start a flame war. I have seen way too much 'ZOMG EA IS EVIL LETS PIRATE THEIR GAMEZ' on these forums, and this slanted attitude irritates me. Therefore, I created this thread to show the issue in a different light.

As for reporting Wyatt, terrible spelling and grammar, seemingly ignoring my OP and derogatory comments are my justifications. I have had plenty of people on different threads saying 'says the EA fanboy' and the like by people who obviously didn't read the OP. Naturally, I am getting rather fed up with it.

 

[Woe Is You]

I simply don't believe piracy is at all the reason the current models of DRM have been put into place but merely an excuse. How do you explain limited activations for instance? They have nothing to do with preventing people from downloading your game.

Simply put: if piracy weren't an excuse, there'd be plenty more excuses for such stupid practices.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

I do understand where both of you are coming from, but the main reason why people pirate is not because of DRM.

It's because they just don't want to pay.

[CITATION NEEDED]

The purpose of this thread is to bring this fact to light, and deconstruct the fact that every 'reason you're being screwed over' by the big companies are caused by piracy.

The purpose of this thread is to present your own opinion as fact and shout down anyone else who presents a different opinion.

Directly, piracy is killing the industry by revenue theft, and indirectly it is being happened by the big companies driving away customers with dumb and inconvenient security measures in order to protect their revenue.

The only thing "killing" this industry which is reporting growth in the middle of the worst recession since World War 2 is their own assinine business practices.

 

[Caliostro]

Just get the damn 10k views badge already...THIS HAS BEEN DONE TO DEATH. It's right up there with religion topics and "why all the hate on" topics. It goes nowhere fast.

I could go on writing a huge post on how provably wrong you are, but honestly, I've done it too many times before and the tendency is to just go "NO U" and ignore my points entirely or hide in circular logic.

That said, I find it hard to believe you NEVER did anything against the law, even if marginally, like speeding, or even sharing a couple MP3s with a friend, so the word "hypocrite" comes to mind.

 

[Deamon002]

The purpose of this thread is to bring this fact to light, and deconstruct the fact that every 'reason you're being screwed over' by the big companies are caused by piracy.

Bull. Piracy does not force publishers to sell games that do not even work out of the box. Piracy does not force publishers to sell unfinished games to make you buy an 'expansion'. Piracy does not force publishers to use false advertisement and bought reviews to hype up games and sucker people into buying it before the fact that it's garbage becomes common knowledge. Even DRM just uses piracy as an excuse, without it they'd just come up with something else, or simply not bother at all.

It's down to good old-fashioned money grubbing, nothing more. The suits need some way to pretend they do actual work to justify their salaries, after all.

 

[Wyatt]

As for reporting Wyatt, terrible spelling and grammar, seemingly ignoring my OP and derogatory comments are my justifications. I have had plenty of people on different threads saying 'says the EA fanboy' and the like by people who obviously didn't read the OP. Naturally, I am getting rather fed up with it.

i couldnt give a fuck less about spelling and grammer, im not 6 and this isnt a grade school class its a games forum.

as to reading your OP thats kinda funy im prolly one of the few people that actualy DID read it. i allways do. how can i prove (or not) that your wrong, or indeed decide that i agree with you if i dont read what you have written? and not only did i read the words, i was also smart enough to grasp the meanings behind them. i not only read your post but i got your POINT too. and i didnt agree with it then, i still dont agree with it, and i wont be agreeing with it in the future.

as i said one manes 'justification' is another mans simple facts. from what i read its YOU that are ignoring things we say, piracys isnt the cause of DRM, piracy isnt the cause of busted games, piracy isnt the cause of patches or expantions, piracy isnt the cause of piss poor tech support and so on, all valid points that you ignore to go on repeating over and over agian 'stealing is bad' , well duh, we got that. in fact i dont see anyone here that doesnt agree. but there are OTHER factors that come into play in this topic that you want to ignore or excuse. stealing is bad, i agree but it doesnt stop there, we dont live in a vacume even a judge in a criminol case wants to figure out a persons motives for commiting a crime and the motives for piracy ARE in more than a few cases GOOD ones. using spore alone as a prime and most obvious example, my only regret is that MORE people didnt pirate it. what EA has/is doing with securom needs to be stoped if the 'law' wont do it than by all means let the common people rise up and do it ourselves. because as bad as stealing is, fucking over millions of your customers on the scale EA tryed to do with Spore is WORSE, a pirate steals one copy of a game that might cost $50, EA steals from millions of customers and that same $50 a pop by renting them a game and installing spyware on their comuters when the CONTRACT is that the buyer owns the game. and i mean the obvious contract not the fine print crap that you dont have access too untill you actualy BUY the game.

there is a reason that EULA's dont stand up in court you know, its against the law to try and impose a contract after the sale.

no sir, i read your OP, ive read every reply you made since, i dont agree with you at all. its obvious you want to ignore our replys because there really is nothing you can say, our logic is inescapable so feel free to report away im confident that my posts can stand judgment on their relivence and content. my tone may be a bit harsh but as you yourself said sometimes we can 'get tired' of obvious ignorance. the spelling and grammar i couldnt give a fuck less about, if the mods worry about spelling they should take 8/10th of a second and add a built in spell checker to their forums otherwise its a non-issue for me. if i get baned or otherwise punished for SPELLING or because i used a comma wrong, so be it. it is after all just a games forum its not like im writing a white paper that the fait of the whole world will hang on how i spelled or how that i forgot a period. come to think of it spelling and grammar dont really matter much to anyone other than pendantic asshats with nothing of REAL value to add to any topic. if i lacked an original idea of my own i too may spend my time fussing about commas and spelling. i really should have expected that you would make an issue of this though, you seems facinated with the little things. your entire reply to anything said is here a repeat of "STEALING IS WRONG" i guess i shoudnt be supprised that you would get so cought up in trying to chop down a single tree (spelling issues) that you have lost total sight of the forrest all around you (the original topic).