"dumbed down for the console gamer"
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I thought that it means that the graphics for a game have been shrunk down for the consoles, then ported for pc and looking just as bad. Or maybe that was the controls, or both.
I dunno.
I don't have anything against consoles but I do have something against the people who just port things from the console to the pc and just leaving it with a very low quality port.
I dunno.
I don't have anything against consoles but I do have something against the people who just port things from the console to the pc and just leaving it with a very low quality port.
It seems that the basis behinds most of the arguments is sequels. People have mentioned Fallout, Mass Effect, the next Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, Supreme Commander etc. and it just looks like people moaning about how the developers will remove or change certain aspects from the first game. To me this just seems like its between game developers and their audiences. If an initial game sold really well for either PC or consoles then most likely a sequel will be made. The developers can assume (usually) that the people who bought the first game will buy the second one but with the rising cost of making games that might not be enough. This means they will have to expand from their original market, games that were solely PC will most likely be also sold for consoles to increase profit. That means developers might have to change certain features to accommodate for consoles' limited hardware and controller scheme. Sometimes it can be done fairly well, as other have pointed out with Dragon Age, and others they might cut/add a lot of features that change the game, see Mass Effect 1 and 2. But to wrap up in the end its all about $$$$$ and if a developer thinks a game might have to be made a certain way to make the maximum profit they will. You might not like it but if initial projections show 2 people might consider buying a game because of the changes versus 1 person who thinks otherwise what do you think is ganna happen?
While the idea that "gaming consoles should be the epitome of gaming technology" makes sense in theory, it's impossible to make happen. By virtue of the fact that computers can be upgraded at any time and will out-perform any console on the market (for a fairly reasonable price), consoles will always lag behind.Okysho said:
I'm pretty sure it's all those stupid punks on Xbox live.
I don't play PC games that much. I dabble in a few, mostly strategy games because I see absolutely no way for a strategy game like StarCraft or Civilization being played on a console, simply because of the control system. I mostly play console games. Certain types of games, especially shooters, I find much easier to play on a console. If that point alone is enough to call me stupid, then fine.
It's what I like to call the "Rush Limbaugh Effect". There are many people I know of who identify themselves as republicans. This may be fiscal in nature, or a belief in less government regulation, or what have you. These people are typically very normal. They have normal lives, they respect other peoples' differences, and all that good stuff. Then there's Rush Limbaugh, who is exactly the kind of person most of those aforementioned people wouldn't like to associate with. Unfortunately, since Rush has his radio show and is really loud and whatnot, people often see him as "The Republican", and use him as the example.
Sorry to turn the thread pseudo-political. What were we talking about?
So the phrase "dumbed down for the console gamer" is the kind of phrase I understand. I still don't especially care for it though. Whether it be the "simpler" control style that emerges from joystick controllers or the jerks that call you a fag every time they kill your character, that still isn't enough reason to call console gamers stupid. Though it is enough to call the stupid console gamers stupid.
I don't play PC games that much. I dabble in a few, mostly strategy games because I see absolutely no way for a strategy game like StarCraft or Civilization being played on a console, simply because of the control system. I mostly play console games. Certain types of games, especially shooters, I find much easier to play on a console. If that point alone is enough to call me stupid, then fine.
It's what I like to call the "Rush Limbaugh Effect". There are many people I know of who identify themselves as republicans. This may be fiscal in nature, or a belief in less government regulation, or what have you. These people are typically very normal. They have normal lives, they respect other peoples' differences, and all that good stuff. Then there's Rush Limbaugh, who is exactly the kind of person most of those aforementioned people wouldn't like to associate with. Unfortunately, since Rush has his radio show and is really loud and whatnot, people often see him as "The Republican", and use him as the example.
Sorry to turn the thread pseudo-political. What were we talking about?
So the phrase "dumbed down for the console gamer" is the kind of phrase I understand. I still don't especially care for it though. Whether it be the "simpler" control style that emerges from joystick controllers or the jerks that call you a fag every time they kill your character, that still isn't enough reason to call console gamers stupid. Though it is enough to call the stupid console gamers stupid.
i am sure console gamers want to deny the facts and call the people as "elitist" or "pricks", but there is a truth in this subject.shootthebandit said:
1- console controllers and pc mouse+keyboard has huge difference between them. it seems easier to use a gamepad for actions games, a joystick or a gamepad with sticks for race games, but keyboard+mouse combination gives the user more functions.
2- because of the above situation, pc games always had more complex games like the flight simulation games. in some of those games, you have to memorize and use all the 101 keys of the keyboard to control the plane, you may even use the mouse.
3- other than the control complexity, pc games had also gameplay complexity. games like civilization or total war series requires patience, well organized plan and managing your armies. in adventure or puzzle games, you need to think really hard in front of your computer, and you can not just flick your gamepad quickly to beat the game.
4- some (or most) console games target an audience that want to play a game with his friend for a rapid and loud night. that's why console games are prepared to regard speed instead of thinking.
5- console games are developed for the gamepad and according to their buttons. when you try to transfer this controlling style "exactly", it becomes a very stupid gameplay for the pc gamers. why should i press two button at the same time and scroll down to change my weapons instead of just press 1-2-3-4-5-6... buttons? console emulated gamestyle is a problematic issue for the pc gamers.
console gamers can call pc gamers whatever they want but these are the reasons.
for example:
- morrowind vs oblivion. morrowind was a good successor for daggerfall game. you have lots of quests, lots of sandboxing, lots of exploring in the game. these aspects add complexity to the game. however oblivion lightened the aspects of morrowind for an "easier" gameplay. it even add a weird "level scaling system" to help the player not to plan their levels according to different difficulty of dungeons and zones. you just have same difficulty in every place.
- jedi knight vs force unleashed. force unleashed have lots of jumping scenes, fast combat, overpowered force powers, etc. it even has "simon says" sequences to defeat the bosses/mini-bosses. however the game lacks a deep and solid story instead it has "boy loves girl, boy becomes hero, hero saves the girl" type of story.
- baldur's gate vs dark alliance. one is a strategical "traditional" role playing game, other is an action role playing game.
- system shock vs bioshock. although bioshock is a good game, it didn't have the deepness of system shock series.
these don't make console games bad or console gamers stupid. they are just different type of genres.
i also have consoles in my home, not just pc, and play games on them. sega saturn, super nintendo, psx, ps2, ps3... for example darkness was really a good game. it contains a deep story, a complex gameplay. or metal gear solid 4, it is nothing less than a good pc game. fascinating story, world, gameplay...
the complaints i (we, as pc gamers) do is becaused of the enfeebled/weakened computer games just to please the console gamers and suit their style.
no doubt there are great console or multiplatform adaptions like grand theft auto 4 and mission packs. however even good adaptions like mass effect and dragon age seems "lite" compared to planescape torment or vampire: the masquerade redemption. and that's the problem for us.
Pingieking said:
EightGaugeHippo said:
agree...Robyrt said:
great post. thanks.Serenegoose said:
Apart from technical limitations that come with pads and consoles themselves, there is a difference in target market as well. For quite some time consoles have been a spiritual successor to the arcade machines. Action games, fighter games, beat em ups, hack and slash, all the genre that base on pressing few buttons to make shiny yet somewhat repetitive moves.
Over the time it has become a synonymous with what console gamers actually want to play, and thus these days you rarely have such games being produced for PC and even if they are they are in many cases just straight ports that are nearly unplayable without a pad plugged to your PC.
Let's not fool ourselves, those games are very simplistic in terms of controls and the variety comes from sequence of pressed buttons rather than separate skills/attacks.
On the other hand you had PC crowd, raised with the access to all the goodness of keyboard + mouse, with games fully using that fact. Be it isometric cRPGs, RTSes, MMOs, etc that give ability for quick access to every part of the interface without forcing a player to scroll through series of tiered menus.
Over the time it has become a synonymous with what console gamers actually want to play, and thus these days you rarely have such games being produced for PC and even if they are they are in many cases just straight ports that are nearly unplayable without a pad plugged to your PC.
Let's not fool ourselves, those games are very simplistic in terms of controls and the variety comes from sequence of pressed buttons rather than separate skills/attacks.
On the other hand you had PC crowd, raised with the access to all the goodness of keyboard + mouse, with games fully using that fact. Be it isometric cRPGs, RTSes, MMOs, etc that give ability for quick access to every part of the interface without forcing a player to scroll through series of tiered menus.
LMB, RMB, MMB, scroll up/down, 1-0, alt+1-0, ctrl+1-0, shift+1-0,F1-F4, WASDQEZXCRFVTGB, alt + QEZXCRFVTGB, space, ~, additional mouse buttons... that's what i used playing WoW.ryo02 said:
yellers give gamers a bad name.. there was a movie from this guy (plz see "this guy" as a hotlink)
[link]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2005-Gamer[/link]
[link]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2005-Gamer[/link]
A lot of people misunderstand this statement. Unfortunately, they're the people who keep propagating the argument...
Before console gaming became anything more than "Sonic the Hedgehog", PC games were *preeeeeeeeeeeetty* complex. I don't mean that in the way of "they had lots of storylines and difficulties and shit", but the control schemes and graphics settings, particularly stuff like inventory management was more dependant on having a mouse and keyboard. For a perfect example, look at how inventory management changed between Deus Ex (which was designed primarily for the PC) and Deus Ex 2 (which was designed for both PC and Console).
I'm not saying you can't have a game with a good controls that'll work just as well on a console as it will on a PC (look at something like Oblivion), but it's caused a good bit of resentment when devs who've primarily catered to PC gamers in the past start removing features from the PC versions of games just because it's unworkable on consoles. I mean, you console folks wouldn't like it was suddenly declared the next Call of Duty would be a PC exclusive, would you?
Personally though, I don't really believe this sort of stuff anymore. If Devs aren't willing to work properly on cross platform development then they aren't good devs! Blaming other gamers is just childish.
Before console gaming became anything more than "Sonic the Hedgehog", PC games were *preeeeeeeeeeeetty* complex. I don't mean that in the way of "they had lots of storylines and difficulties and shit", but the control schemes and graphics settings, particularly stuff like inventory management was more dependant on having a mouse and keyboard. For a perfect example, look at how inventory management changed between Deus Ex (which was designed primarily for the PC) and Deus Ex 2 (which was designed for both PC and Console).
I'm not saying you can't have a game with a good controls that'll work just as well on a console as it will on a PC (look at something like Oblivion), but it's caused a good bit of resentment when devs who've primarily catered to PC gamers in the past start removing features from the PC versions of games just because it's unworkable on consoles. I mean, you console folks wouldn't like it was suddenly declared the next Call of Duty would be a PC exclusive, would you?
Personally though, I don't really believe this sort of stuff anymore. If Devs aren't willing to work properly on cross platform development then they aren't good devs! Blaming other gamers is just childish.
I don't think console gamers are "inferior" compared to PC gamers, but you can sometimes see multiplatform game suffer from console's limitations.
For example, Thief: Deadly Shadows had much smaller maps than I and II, most likely because the game was made for Xbox too. Morrowind's user interface was easy and fast to use. Oblivion's UI on the other hand, because consoles don't have mouses and the TV screen is farther away than computer screen, was slow and complicated and required scrolling, scrolling and scrolling a bit more to find/do something.
A simple solution for problems like the console UI being a steaming pile of shit on PC and vice versa would be to make the PC version and console versions different. Of course, that's just too simple.
For example, Thief: Deadly Shadows had much smaller maps than I and II, most likely because the game was made for Xbox too. Morrowind's user interface was easy and fast to use. Oblivion's UI on the other hand, because consoles don't have mouses and the TV screen is farther away than computer screen, was slow and complicated and required scrolling, scrolling and scrolling a bit more to find/do something.
A simple solution for problems like the console UI being a steaming pile of shit on PC and vice versa would be to make the PC version and console versions different. Of course, that's just too simple.
Mass Effect was and is meant for the console market. Shooters sell well and so they changed the game a bit in ME2 because of the market.Hashime said:
The major flaw in a Pc gamer's line of thinking when they say that is that they believe better controls = better game.
Of course the stereotype of PC gamers is that they're elitist anyways so maybe its just that.
You'd hear a lot of arguments about how PC is the "master race" and the biggest argument is how the controls are better. Sure they're better for genres created on the PC, but what about adventure games, or fighting games, or racing games? Arguing which controls scheme is better is pointless anyways because you're not going to play against someone with a different setup.
As for which platform has better games, its all opinion. but I'll leave you with this, the console has a wider variety of games due to its massive library of all consoles combined, but the PC can also emulate many of these games. So take that how you will.
Of course the stereotype of PC gamers is that they're elitist anyways so maybe its just that.
You'd hear a lot of arguments about how PC is the "master race" and the biggest argument is how the controls are better. Sure they're better for genres created on the PC, but what about adventure games, or fighting games, or racing games? Arguing which controls scheme is better is pointless anyways because you're not going to play against someone with a different setup.
As for which platform has better games, its all opinion. but I'll leave you with this, the console has a wider variety of games due to its massive library of all consoles combined, but the PC can also emulate many of these games. So take that how you will.
It's always like this, the loud section of a fandom makes everyone look bad.
Personally I play PS3 and PC.
Personally I play PS3 and PC.
I once saw a graphics comparison of Bioshock on both PC and XBox and while, no, I'm not saying that graphics have anything to do with dumbing down, I will say that I honestly had a pretty good laugh because of the gameplay. The creator of the video fought a Big Daddy in the exact same spot in both versions of the game and the XBox one looked hilariously clumsy and...forgiving...
In the PC version the player had to maneuver, take cover and use the environment to his advantage. Every rivet hit was devastating.
In the XBox version the character soaked bullets like a sponge water. True, the player still visibly made an effort, but the combat wasn't nearly as finely tuned and complex.
So that's what I generally understand by "getting dumbed down for the console crowd". Making gameplay easier because of...hardware limitations...
In the PC version the player had to maneuver, take cover and use the environment to his advantage. Every rivet hit was devastating.
In the XBox version the character soaked bullets like a sponge water. True, the player still visibly made an effort, but the combat wasn't nearly as finely tuned and complex.
So that's what I generally understand by "getting dumbed down for the console crowd". Making gameplay easier because of...hardware limitations...
The main reason that games have to be "dumbed down" for cosoles is interface issues. A PC keyboard just has way more accessible buttone than a console gamepad. The accuracy of a mouse vs. an analog stick doesn't even enter into it.
In order to truly understand the difference in feel between some games on a console and the same games on a PC, you need to play an RPG like Dragon Age or an RTS like Command & Conquer.
I love the fact that everyone seems to think that the "dumbing down" comment is a shot at console gamers themselves. I've been both a PC and console gamer for years, and I, unfortunately, have to agree that a lot of game interfaces have to be watered-down to work on a console.
In order to truly understand the difference in feel between some games on a console and the same games on a PC, you need to play an RPG like Dragon Age or an RTS like Command & Conquer.
I love the fact that everyone seems to think that the "dumbing down" comment is a shot at console gamers themselves. I've been both a PC and console gamer for years, and I, unfortunately, have to agree that a lot of game interfaces have to be watered-down to work on a console.
To be honest, PC Gamers have no one to blame but themselves. Their constant complaints about the price of games / expansions / dlc, the rampant piracy, the graphics whores... they are what lead gaming companies to realize that the console market is where they can make their money, and as such, have targeted it as a platform.
If game developers could target PC only and still be profitable, like StarCraft II (and yes you PC elitists had to ***** about THAT too) then gaming companies would target PC only. You reap what you sow PC gamers, and your flat out refusal to financially support your game developers mean that they are seeking greener pastures elsewhere and you are left with the resulting lip service.
If game developers could target PC only and still be profitable, like StarCraft II (and yes you PC elitists had to ***** about THAT too) then gaming companies would target PC only. You reap what you sow PC gamers, and your flat out refusal to financially support your game developers mean that they are seeking greener pastures elsewhere and you are left with the resulting lip service.