Casual Shinji said:
Treblaine said:
PS: I think with people being decapitated in the streets for making a religious joke, Dutch society is not without basis to suggest some bad ideology has come in from outside that was not fostered in the Netherlands. I don't think when they are talking about "immigrant" they are talking about the industrious Polish, they are talking about the groups that prescribe how much you can beat your wife and what kind of jokes should carry the death sentence.
Ah yes, Sharia4Holland. Lovely chaps those guys are.
In actuality the mentality of Holland (aswell as most other free thinking countries) works as a pendulum. Back in the 90's you weren't allowed to utter even the smallest critisism against a different culture, primarily Islam, under threat of being a branded a nazi. The first man to really break through this silence was eventually shot by some left-wing radical. A director was shot and stabbed, and a female politician of Somali decent was practically forced to flee the country.
Geert Wilders is a humorless egomaniac, but the fact that he needs bodyguards 24/7 says a lot. And the odd thing is that the other political parties could easily defuse the PVV's popularity by simply adressing fears that a good deal of people have, instead of branding them brainwashed morons.
Hang on a minute. Nazism is "another culture" yet it apparently is denigrated enough to be used as an insult. That establishes that back then Dutch society would not accept EVERYTHING from North Korean style communism through to Hitler's Fascism, they did in fact have particular cultural ideals they were opposed to. I know they definitely opposed South Africa's petty apartheid
I think it has come to the point where extremist Islam is no longer considered a racial group, but an ideology that can be criticised like Communism or Randianism. Islam makes it clear they are not racial, their religion is for ALL human beings. Its an evangelised ideology that can be adopted and it can be abandoned (though under Sharia law this carries the death penalty which has deserved criticism of whether this can be a free choice). Now the objection is to the FUNDAMENTALS of Islam, not all Muslims as many of them are moderate. In principal Judaism and Christianity have potential to be just as bad but extremist Christianity are not a problem in contemporary Dutch culture. Netherlands did a few hundred years ago, but that has been stopped and now religious beliefs cannot be force upon others.
The problem are the fundamentals of Islam and quite how many really do literally ascribe to them, and particularly the parts pertaining to violence and inciting hatred which is not entirely within the text itself but comes from the various groups that teach it. The exact same criticisms can be heard for Christianity though it is mainly in America where you see that extremist fundamentalist Christianity.
"eventually shot by some left-wing radical"
Theo van Gogh was murdered, not by a "left-wing" radical, but by Mohammed Bouyeri who was an extreme right wing religious fundamentalist who defined his hatred by extreme conservative interpretation of an ancient scripture. He was obsessed with bloodshed and even wrote a sick poem about it that he stabbed to his victim's chest. This violence has not been isolated nor fleeting, the threats have been ongoing and they are against people who are completley unarmed and never called for any violence. Merely criticism.
"but the fact that he needs bodyguards 24/7 says a lot."
Yes, it says a lot about how awful the groups he criticise are. You can't conclude that because people want to MURDER someone then they must deserve to be murdered, that justifies any murder.
