EA Does it Again

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Quid Plura

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Yagharek said:
Quid Plura said:
And one more thing: Do not compare used games to used cars, houses, electronics. It has no use whatsoever.
How so?

If I buy a house used, I am not supporting its builder. If I buy it new, I am. If no one bought new houses, there would be no money for builders.

It is exactly the same situation.
Because someone building a house doesn't commit to maintaining the house. Game developers do when they implement a multiplayer component. They have costs for keeping servers up, patching problems, keeping up a help desk, et cetera.

Other than that, the real estate market has a lot more legislation going on. Even if people want to support their local house building company, it's not always possible. Counties have ideas about what house should be placed where. So the supply of new houses isn't as constant as that of new games.
If I want to buy a new copy of a new game, there isn't really anything that's stopping me from buying it. On the other hand, if I want to buy a new house in the middle of Manhattan it poses a problem, even if I did have the money needed to pull it off.

I think, because of the above, that it poses way more discussion value if games are compared to other multimedia like cd's and dvd's.
 

Yagharek

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Lyri said:
TPiddy said:
Could you just imagine if other used markets started doing this? Used cars? used furniture?
Do explain that, other than sticking it into your rant for the sake of a point it's ridiculous.
How would they restrict a used piece of furniture or car?
I'm not quite sure how this is relevant.

I don't see how the fact that they can't restrict it lessens the validity of the comparison.


Because they can't stop people from selling it used, that makes it OK?
 

Quid Plura

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Makon said:
Keava said:
Because they can. It's their right, and frankly i support it. Ignoring everything else, why do people that buy used games feel like they deserve to be treated like any other customer when they don't want to give their money to the publisher/developer? Go complain to those you buy used games from.
I agree, word for word.
Interesting development could be that the gameshops themselves pay the money needed for online activation to the developers. The gamer doesn't have to put in the effort to do his own activation.
 

Jaded Scribe

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Yagharek said:
Jaded Scribe said:
I've talked about this topic many times. This is absolutely ridiculous (and I hated last week's Critical Miss. I felt it was a cheap and unreasonable shot and said as much in the comments there).

Many warranties are non-transferable, or you have to pay to transfer it (most used cars).

If you buy a used car, do you expect it to be in mint condition? Or do you expect there to be a little wear on the upholstery, and in need of more maintenance?

Why do you think that you should get the exact same experience for a lower price? The developers (more-so than the publishers who while they get a cut of the profits, also get a big payday from the developer before the game even hits the shelves) are the ones that are hurt when you buy used games. These people bust their asses to make you a game. They deserve the benefits (pay raises, good benefits, bonuses, etc etc etc) as well as the ability to better upgrade their equipment.

Times are tough. Even I buy used games (I would prefer not to). But I'm not so arrogant, so self-entitled, to think that these companies owe me something, or that I deserve the same benefits as those who buy new.

EA does a lot with DLC. But sports games are, in my view, harder to do that with.

You can play just fine without multiplayer. Here's the question you have to ask yourself: Is it worth the extra $5-$10 to get the multiplayer. If that increase is too much for you, then just don't buy the game.

These companies don't owe you anything. Yes, good customer service and all that jazz. But when you get down to it, they are a business, and they are out to *gasp* make a profit. That's how businesses work.

In many ways, getting more people to buy new can actually help push companies to make a better product. Right now, if you get self-righteous and decide to boycott their product, they don't care. They weren't getting your money anyways.

The more people that buy new, the more encouragement they have to provide improved customer service because losing you as a customer of their games actually makes a difference.

You should not get the exact same benefits, bonuses, etc as someone who buys new. Plain and simple. They paid for it.


Look at it this way. Say your game was good enough to sell 1 million copies, but 40% of those were Used. Say that of that 400,000 a whopping 3/4 of them would not have bought the game if there wasn't a used option (I think there would be more people willing to buy it new than that, but just for argument's sake).

That's 100,000 copies of the game that they didn't sell (i.e actually make money off of). Multiply that by an average of $65/game: $6,500,000 in lost money. That's a big chunk of change that isn't getting put back into the company to support the development of their games.

You all act like all the money from game sales goes into a Scrooge McDuck-type money bin where the executives go swimming in it. No. Most of it goes into the investment and improvement of their game development.

Grow up. If you buy Used, you do so knowing full well what you're missing out on (unless of course you don't do any research on the games you buy used, in which case that's your own damn fault). You don't pay full price (or even the company that made the game), so you don't get full functionality. It's as simple as that.
I disagree, and think your argument is flawed. As you say, if I buy a used car, I don't expect it to be in mint condition. However, I don't expect my game to be either. What I do expect from my used car, is for it to function. Likewise with my game.

There is a difference between something not fully functioning, and something deliberately sabotaged.

You see, if I buy a used car, I might expect it to be a bit slow, a bit scratched. What I don't expect, is for someone to rip a chunk out deliberately.

There is a difference between knowing that what you are getting is secondhand, and so might not work perfectly, and having a company ensuring that what you are buying is not the full thing.

I don't buy used games expecting them to be in mint condition. I don't buy used cars expecting the creator of it to have ripped out the dashboard so as to encourage me to buy new.
Honestly, I find cars in general to be a bad analogy for this. They are different products, different industries, and different issues and considerations.

The bottom line is why should you get to pay less and get the exact same thing as someone who paid for it new, without even waiting a significant time period.

Lack of mint-condition isn't a big deterrent. It's not terribly difficult to get rid of scratches unless they are crazy bad, and with the shift to blu-ray disks (at least on the PS3, and I'm sure the other consoles will follow), it's even harder to scratch in the first place.

EA doesn't owe you anything, as you aren't their customer.

If you don't feel the content is worth the increased cost (I for one don't care about online multiplayer, but am big on DLC) then shouldn't you be considering if it's a game you really want to buy? Since champions of Used games often cite the economy, isn't better for you economically to not buy the game at all? Or, wait a short while (usually a year) and get the Game of the Year edition for half price AND several DLCs bundled in? If the game wasn't popular enough to warrant a Game of the Year edition, then after a year it will be significantly cheaper anyways.

I'm not saying buying Used is bad. I'm just wondering why, first, you think you deserve full functionality that, frankly, you didn't pay for; second, why you feel EA owes you something when you aren't their customer?
 

Something Amyss

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TPiddy said:
So, Just dropped my money for EA Sports' NHL 11 last night... lo and behold, there is an online activation code on the back of the manual. Seems like if you buy the game used you are locked out of online play.

Why do publishers have to be restrictive instead of rewarding? At least with Bioware, if you bought new you just got more stuff, DLC you would have had to pay for, maps, etc.... People should be rewarded for buying new, not punished for buying used.
It's easier to punish.
 

Jaded Scribe

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Wicky_42 said:
Jaded Scribe said:
...
Look at it this way. Say your game was good enough to sell 1 million copies, but 40% of those were Used. Say that of that 400,000 a whopping 3/4 of them would not have bought the game if there wasn't a used option (I think there would be more people willing to buy it new than that, but just for argument's sake).

That's 100,000 copies of the game that they didn't sell (i.e actually make money off of). Multiply that by an average of $65/game: $6,500,000 in lost money. That's a big chunk of change that isn't getting put back into the company to support the development of their games.

You all act like all the money from game sales goes into a Scrooge McDuck-type money bin where the executives go swimming in it. No. Most of it goes into the investment and improvement of their game development.

Grow up. If you buy Used, you do so knowing full well what you're missing out on (unless of course you don't do any research on the games you buy used, in which case that's your own damn fault). You don't pay full price (or even the company that made the game), so you don't get full functionality. It's as simple as that.
Look at it this way. Say your car was good enough to sell 1,000,000 units, but 40% of those were used re-sales. Of those, 3/4 may not have bought the car at full price anyway, so don't really count as lost sales.

That 100,000 cars that you didn't get to sell, and at, say, £15,000 a car that's £1,500,000,000 you didn't make - a theoretical loss of 10% expected returns. That's £1.5 billion that's not going into reinvestment and development!

You all act like it's perfectly normal to buy used cars, that you have some right to avoid paying full price and to sell your car on if you want!

Grow up. If you buy a used car, the makers should be allowed to make you pay additional fees in order to make the engine start, unlock the gear stick and turn the lights on (all in addition to the risk of wear-and-tear from the previous owner - after all, they went through all the hassle of making it in the first place, and that makes it theirs for ever. You should know full well what you're getting yourself into before hand, you dirty cheap-skate.
Because cars and games are even remotely similar.

(1) Cars drop in value approx 30% the minute you drive it off the lot.
(2) Starting the engine etc is all basic functionality. Sorry, but online multiplayer is not "basic functionality". You can play the game just fine without it (career mode, single-console-multiplayer, etc)
(3) Most dealerships sell used cars as well as new, so the company is still making a ton of money off the used cars.
(4) Given that not all public transportation systems are created equal, cars are, to many, a basic necessity of life to remain employed, care for the family, etc etc. Games are a luxury item.


Why is it so hard to make a choice if online multiplayer (or included DLC, or whatever) is worth the extra $5-$10 to you? If it is, then buy it new. If not, ask yourself if the used game is worth the $55. No? Then don't buy it. If you decide you can live without the extra content, then buy used.

I am not, and did not, say that buying used or selling your games is bad. That's your choice. But why are you surprised that businesses (which function to make a profit) are making moves to increase their revenue. You aren't their customer, so obviously they don't care if they make you mad.
 

Ghostkai

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If the retailer didn't inform you of such an issue, take it up with them.

EA's motives and changes have been around for quite some time now, it's frankly old news.

Take it up with the store, ask them why they didn't tell you. And if the game had a label on it (like in the store "GAME" in the UK) that states DLC/online content might not all be there on a used copy, then that's your own fault.
 

SimuLord

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Aug 20, 2008
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Companies can't stop piracy. They can, however, do a fine job of putting the brakes on the secondary market, which costs them far more in lost sales than piracy does.

EA's after its own economic self-interest. I'm not going to fault them for that. I tend to side with Tycho from Penny Arcade in the "used games are morally equivalent to theft" argument.
 

The Journey

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TPiddy said:
People should be rewarded for buying new, not punished for buying used.
This.

This should be mailed, emailed, texted, IM'd, graffed, limericked, rhymed, sung in song, carrier pigeoned, strippogrammed and even sent by smoke signal to every damned publisher and developer on the face of the planet.
Repeatedly, until their eyes/ears bleed from the unstoppable assault and agree that rewards are better than punishments when trying to give incentive for people to buy their products.

It really is such a basic premise. Punishments and treating your user base like criminals from the get go (ant-piracy measures) anger and frustrate your consumers. Rewards allow people to make an informed choice. If the rewards are good enough, less and less people will buy the game second hand. Unless they are one of those supremely unlucky people who don't have easy access to the internet. In which case, punishing them is even more cruel and unusual.
 

TheComedown

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Lyri said:
TheComedown said:
How is that different? Bioware doesn't do multiplayer (not including that mmo thing) so they don't have multiplayer to use as incentive to buy new. You say Bioware is doing the right thing when its almost identical to EAs plan, I really don't see the harm in this. Buying second hand the developers don't see the money,some of that money is used to maintain servers etc, if you buy used really you aren't helping maintain the servers you will be using when you think about it its really not that big a deal, want the feature buy new, if you don't care, don't.
This man is the winner.
:D I got called a man AND a winner in the one sentence...
 

teisjm

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They earn more money that way, and whining on the internet won't really help, cause if it doesn't affect their income, they don't really need to give a fuck.

The only way to stop it, is to punish them economically, but heres the problem. The people who has to do it, is the people who would've paid full price and bought teh game new. And since they're not buying it used, they'er not beeing affected by the lack of online in the "used version" they might have a harder time reselling it once they're done with it, but honestly, how many people think about how big a part of the prize they can get back when they re-sell it?

So the people suffering udnert this, has no direct weapon to fight back with. Unless EA can see a big reduction in sales, and a large ammount of whining about something specific, but it would require a LOT of people to unite and boycut EA, and i really doubt this'll happen.

Also, i'm left wondering why this always brings rage, but the fact that this is basicly how steam has been working for years doesn't seem to botehr anyone...
 

Quid Plura

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The Journey said:
TPiddy said:
People should be rewarded for buying new, not punished for buying used.
Unless they are one of those supremely unlucky people who don't have easy access to the internet. In which case, punishing them is even more cruel and unusual.
Don't think they really care for getting locked out of online play then ;)
 

tofulove

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Sep 6, 2009
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You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger
And you don't give your money to ea.


-edit- unless its bc2, cause that game rocks my socks.
 

Sight Unseen

The North Remembers
Nov 18, 2009
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The Journey said:
TPiddy said:
People should be rewarded for buying new, not punished for buying used.
This.

This should be mailed, emailed, texted, IM'd, graffed, limericked, rhymed, sung in song, carrier pigeoned, strippogrammed and even sent by smoke signal to every damned publisher and developer on the face of the planet.
Repeatedly, until their eyes/ears bleed from the unstoppable assault and agree that rewards are better than punishments when trying to give incentive for people to buy their products.

It really is such a basic premise. Punishments and treating your user base like criminals from the get go (ant-piracy measures) anger and frustrate your consumers. Rewards allow people to make an informed choice. If the rewards are good enough, less and less people will buy the game second hand. Unless they are one of those supremely unlucky people who don't have easy access to the internet. In which case, punishing them is even more cruel and unusual.
What is the distinction between rewarding new and punishing used?

If I buy NHL11 new, I am rewarded by having FREE multiplayer. If I buy Dragon Age used, I am punished by not having additional DLC.

If you reward one group of people with an exlucsive benefit, you are inherently punishing anyone who chooses not to be among the rewarded group... But since it's the person's choice whether to be rewarded or punished, this argument loses all meaning.

The difference here is that if you buy any EA project $10 game used, you can still get full functionality by chipping in $10 to the developper instead of expecting a free ride on their service which they need to pay money to keep running and updated.

Anyone who thinks that EA is being greedy by expecting to get revenue (read: at least $10) off every game sold, while also being too cheap to pay the extra $5-10 to buy the game new is a hypocrit, plain and simple.
 

DTWolfwood

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Oct 20, 2009
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TPiddy said:
So, Just dropped my money for EA Sports' NHL 11 last night... lo and behold, there is an online activation code on the back of the manual. Seems like if you buy the game used you are locked out of online play.

Why do publishers have to be restrictive instead of rewarding? At least with Bioware, if you bought new you just got more stuff, DLC you would have had to pay for, maps, etc.... People should be rewarded for buying new, not punished for buying used.
Project $10 the new face of ripoff. Makes total sense...Piss off the ppl that give you money so that you can annoy ppl who don't give you money. perfect economical sense x_X

Read this article [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/8040-Experienced-Points-Bargains-Are-for-Cheaters](if u haven't) its very enlightening on the issue of how this way of thinking became the "norm."
 

Kouen

Yea, Furry. Deal With It!
Mar 23, 2010
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if it only effects ea sport games it wont matter, as by the time you would want to sell it its outta date and most dont want it
 

ReaperzXIII

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Its kind of sad to punish the consumer, its not our fault that we can't afford to pay for a fresh new game every time we want it and what about old games where pre-owned is almost the only way to get it, or we don't want to pay full price because we're unsure of whether we're going to like the game or not. We see a cheaper option we go for it no need for them to treat us like assholes because we aren't made out of money.

Why not make deals with the shop that gives them a percentage of every used game sold?
 

Mistermixmaster

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Keava said:
Because they can. It's their right, and frankly i support it. Ignoring everything else, why do people that buy used games feel like they deserve to be treated like any other customer when they don't want to give their money to the publisher/developer? Go complain to those you buy used games from.
YES! Thank the heavens humanity might have a chance yet! I couldn't agree more.
---
OT:Buying the game you want used is a rather dickish thing to do IMHO. I see it in the same light as people getting games pirated. If your money isn't reaching the developer of a game, you shouldn't be allow to play said game. If money is the problem there is allways the discount section on the half-a-year/three months old (depending on the games popularity) games you can go to y'know...

*Raises flame shield against the legions of the used-game buyers and backs away slowly*
 

Chibz

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TPiddy said:
So, Just dropped my money for EA Sports' NHL 11 last night... lo and behold, there is an online activation code on the back of the manual. Seems like if you buy the game used you are locked out of online play.

Why do publishers have to be restrictive instead of rewarding? At least with Bioware, if you bought new you just got more stuff, DLC you would have had to pay for, maps, etc.... People should be rewarded for buying new, not punished for buying used.
The answer's simple: Because people like you haven't figured out how to stop giving them money yet.
 

sir.rutthed

Stormfather take you!
Nov 10, 2009
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TPiddy said:
So, Just dropped my money for EA Sports' NHL 11 last night... lo and behold, there is an online activation code on the back of the manual. Seems like if you buy the game used you are locked out of online play.

Why do publishers have to be restrictive instead of rewarding? At least with Bioware, if you bought new you just got more stuff, DLC you would have had to pay for, maps, etc.... People should be rewarded for buying new, not punished for buying used.
Easy solution to your problem: don't buy it. Money is the only language these people understand, so if their shit DRM affects sales, they'll have to re-evaluate it. But even then, CD keys are one of the less obnoxious forms of DRM since it's a one time thing generally, and can usually be faked or you can find another code online.