EDUMACATE ME: What is the point/whats different about of Gay Video Game cons?

[Thaluikhain]

Frankly, I think that it's kinda BS. Game Conventions are there for GAMERS. Not Heterosexuals. Not Homosexuals. If you go to a VIDEO GAME CONVENTION, and your goal is to broadcast your sexuality, or your job, or your religion, or your politics... then you're doing it wrong.

Which people are doing. Hence the need for a con that is more tolerant.

Heterosexuality is a sexuality. Assuming that everyone is, or should be, heterosexual, is broadcasting your sexuality.

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh sure, I was understating things a bit there for the sake of a simpler example.

Yeah. Just clarifying. And hopefully giving people some sort of real sense of how it feels. Probably not, but I can hope.

Forget the romances, what about all the male and female couples around? Heterosexuality is a sexuality.

Luke's aunt and uncle in the Star Wars movies, that was heterosexuality. Ron's parents in Harry Potter.

Not to mention ubiquitous concepts like "save your girlfriend." Or "They killed your girlfriend, get revenge." Definitely couples. And as a motivating factor in games, movies....Well, any storytelling medium. They're not quite romance per se, but they are examples of heterosexuality in action.

Now, these don't seem noteworthy because they are the assumed default. But what if Luke was raised by his uncle and his uncle's male lover? What if Ron had two mothers? It would simultaneously make no real difference to the story, and be the most shocking thing imaginable.

Sexuality doesn't only sudden appear when people who aren't straight pop up.

Indeed, sexuality is everywhere. It's usually only when homosexuality (or something less common) comes up where people are suddenly all "keep sexuality out of this! [sub]now can we get back to Harry and Ginny snogging?[/sub]

My girlfriend linked to me a while back a blog where someone said they assume everyone is trans until and unless explicitly stated otherwise, and while that's gender identity and not sexuality, the clueless responses were sort of delicious. They didn't get that the author was flipping the normal situation on its ear, and complained about it. I asked her if she could find the link (I can't find it in my browser history).

And on that tangent, there's the "why do you have to make (so and so) gay?" argument. Well, why do people have to make (so and so) straight? The door really should swing both ways (no sexuality pun intended), but we only notice the part that's not "normal." Or "acceptable." Or whatever.

It's as if there needs to be some sort of super strong justification for why a character isn't the assumed default. And that's not just gays. Racial minorities (Why did they have to make Rue black?), women, non-Christians in the US (I got some crap for writing a character of implied--not stated--Muslim descent), etc.

How are people at cons knowing who is gay? The only situation I can think of is them going up to people and saying, "I AM A MAN AND I LIKE MEN!!!!" (Or the equivalent for lesbians, bis, etc.)

Frist off, I get what you're saying about speculation, but it really isn't better to seek forgiveness than to ask. instead of approaching this with "here's what I assume," take Sane's approach and ask questions. You can even possibly formulate a reasonable opinion from there.

Second, to your question....

I just responded to thal above and we both addressed the "sexuality is everywhere" thing, which I think is pretty relevant here still. Sexuality is everywhere. Couples are everywhere. Gays bring partners to cons just like straights do. It's socially acceptable for hetersoexual PDAs, so it should be acceptable. It shouldn't be treated as screaming "I LIKE MEN" to simply acknowledge your SO. And what about simply acknowledging people around you? Again, you might not notice it, but heterosexuals routinely check out, hit on, comment on, even rate members of the opposite sex. And that's ignoring things like hooking up (common in public venues, very common at cons) and flirting.

Basically, the primary way that gays go unnoticed is if they are actively hiding their sexuality. And that's understandable because of the responses gays get. But a homosexual acting like a heterosexual is allowed to will be noticed. And maybe the heterosexuals are also screaming "I LIKE THE OPPOSITE SEX," but then, that's normalised and my point still remains.

you know if it upsets you that much I'm sure you'd be quite welcome to attend one, they don't check your gay license at the door

In fact, the major "gaymer" cons all accept straight people. What they don't accept is homophobia. Basically, they're asking straight people not to be dicks.

And seriously, if this requirement is too high for anyone, then I don't think the problem's with the con.

how actual gay people feel is of the least importance here.....

Crap. Maybe I should apologise for any straight people I have offended by offering my opinion....

 

[Thaluikhain]

My girlfriend linked to me a while back a blog where someone said they assume everyone is trans until and unless explicitly stated otherwise, and while that's gender identity and not sexuality, the clueless responses were sort of delicious. They didn't get that the author was flipping the normal situation on its ear, and complained about it. I asked her if she could find the link (I can't find it in my browser history).

Heh.

And on that tangent, there's the "why do you have to make (so and so) gay?" argument. Well, why do people have to make (so and so) straight? The door really should swing both ways (no sexuality pun intended), but we only notice the part that's not "normal." Or "acceptable." Or whatever.

It's as if there needs to be some sort of super strong justification for why a character isn't the assumed default. And that's not just gays. Racial minorities (Why did they have to make Rue black?), women, non-Christians in the US (I got some crap for writing a character of implied--not stated--Muslim descent), etc.

Yep...it's "PC gone mad" to stick minorities into a story set in a real place where there are lots of them.

(As an aside, because of this, you won't see many minorities in stuff about, say, zombie apocalypses. So if all the black people suddenly disappear one day, stock up on ammo, the zombies are coming)

 

[Cerebrawl]

Well it's not just about creating a safe space and being inclusive to the LGBT Community. As I understand it these cons are also for discussing LGBT characters, stories, and other LBGT issues in gaming along with the usual Gamer Con panels. If you haven't noticed usually if a character in a video game is Gay or Trans they usually aren't given the best representation. Highly stereotypical characterization of being hedonistic, overly flamboyant, and just straight up creepy, it's not good. This is also a safe place to discuss the pitfalls and problems of such characters and how to overcome them when making games, or how to persuade developers to avoid such characters and instead make believable LGBT characters.

Well to play devil's advocate here: there's good reason that these stereotypes are dominant, it's the ones you take note of. The more subtle ones aren't taken note of, so this misconception is merely a mirror of what is observed. Heck the vocal LGBT community only reinforces this with gay pride parades and such. Oh and I've definitely encountered some of the creepy ones, in person, and way closer than I wanted to(the type that likes to violate personal space and touch you inappropriately *shudders*).

Also it's not like only LGBT characters are usually stereotypes and more flamboyant/standout characters. When's the last time you played a normal person in a game? Aside from a few artsy games(Stanley Parable, for example). You're pretty much always exceptional in some way.

Aside from that, I'm pretty sure I have encountered quite a few more subtle gay characters in games, they're just not memorable and notable enough to get public focus for the most part, except from the most homophobic(which, let's face it, includes many gamers, due to simple demographics). Anyone here want to call Kaidan from Mass Effect a flamboyant, hedonistic or creepy character? No?

Basically a lot of the problem, and glossing over the times when it's not a problem, are because of observation bias.

So part of this can be rephrased as "Why aren't there more banal characters in video games?"

 

[Vault101]

So part of this can be rephrased as "Why aren't there more banal characters in video games?"

because video games hardly deal with the Banal

I don't want to say "sexuality doesn't matter" because it does, or at least it [i/]can[/i] and generally there will be less gay characters because ultimately its always a side issue, Kaiden is still Kaiden regardless of who he's seeing in bed. It would be nice to have gay main character...either "happens to be gay" or where their sexuality plays a bigger part of who they are, (because if characters can happen to be hetero they can happen to be gay) but obviously for those most part they stick to the "norm" because making a character gay just for the sake of making them gay is not the done thing generally and really thats not the [i/]worst[/i] thing...mostly

 

[Cerebrawl]

So part of this can be rephrased as "Why aren't there more banal characters in video games?"

because video games hardly deal with the Banal

That's the point?.

I don't want to say "sexuality doesn't matter" because it does, or at least it [i/]can[/i] and generally there will be less gay characters because ultimately its always a side issue, Kaiden is still Kaiden regardless of who he's seeing in bed. It would be nice to have gay main character...either "happens to be gay" or where their sexuality plays a bigger part of who they are, (because if characters can happen to be hetero they can happen to be gay) but obviously for those most part they stick to the "norm" because making a character gay just for the sake of making them gay is not the done thing generally and really thats not the [i/]worst[/i] thing...mostly

Most people are straight and prefer a character that mirrors their own sexuality, thus they are the biggest market, and it's the most logical choice from a business standpoint for a developer. This makes gay main characters suboptimal for game developers and basically relegates it to niche games that are intended for activism. It's politics over profit. That's why it's so rare, and would be even if the world was a more tolerant place.

So we're not going to see much of that, for good reason. Side characters are a different matter, and I can think of several tastefully done ones, including where homophobia and them hiding their sexuality has been part of the story, but you can coax it out if you persist. See Arcade Gannon(Fallout: New Vegas) for an example.

 

[Vault101]

This makes gay main characters suboptimal for game developers and basically relegates it to niche games that are intended for activism. It's politics over profit. That's why it's so rare, and would be even if the world was a more tolerant place.
.

just because a game features something different from a stock standard protagonist doesn't not make it political or "for activism".....games that allow you the option aren't trying to make a point other than to be inclusive, Gone Home was not political or a form of "activism" it was what the devs wanted it to be...thats a harmful misconception to have

 

[Cerebrawl]

This makes gay main characters suboptimal for game developers and basically relegates it to niche games that are intended for activism. It's politics over profit. That's why it's so rare, and would be even if the world was a more tolerant place.
.

just because a game features something different from a stock standard protagonist doesn't not make it political or "for activism".....games that allow you the option aren't trying to make a point other than to be inclusive, Gone Home was not political or a form of "activism" it was what the devs wanted it to be...thats a harmful misconception to have

I'm not talking about games with options, I'm talking about games where your only choice is to play a gay character.

Since most people aren't gay, and would prefer to play a straight character, this is always going to be a case where the developer is making a point by making the main character gay. Even aside from the fact that a lot of people would be put off by it, even among those who support gay rights, because they don't feel comfortable taking on the role of being gay, that means there's always less profit to be had by having a forced gay protagonist. It's always a stance of showing support for gays over making profit, which is why it's a political decision.

It's intentionally lessening your mass appeal.

Options never cause this problem. Allowing versus forcing, there's a world of difference. A forced gay protagonist isn't inclusive, it's exclusive.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Since most people aren't gay, and would prefer to play a straight character,

Why does that follow?

I mean, most people aren't Space Marines, but there's an awful lot of games about them...

 

[Cerebrawl]

Since most people aren't gay, and would prefer to play a straight character,

Why does that follow?

I mean, most people aren't Space Marines, but there's an awful lot of games about them...

Oh please. Because one is about sexuality and the other about power. There's no icky space marine sex connotations. A better analogy would be tentacle sex hentai games. Again it's niche and limits mass appeal.

It's similar to how most men play male characters and most women play female characters. (The exceptions generally being man wants to look at female ass in third person game and woman prefer not to be harassed in multiplayer game).

There's some core parts that most people feel more comfortable with.

Heck most people feel more comfortable gender bending than sexuality bending.

It's some pretty basic stuff. I'm not even making any judgements here, merely stating facts, what I'm saying shouldn't be controversial.

 

[Vault101]

I'm not talking about games with options, I'm talking about games where your only choice is to play a gay character.

Since most people aren't gay, and would prefer to play a straight character, this is always going to be a case where the developer is making a point by making the main character gay. Even aside from the fact that a lot of people would be put off by it, even among those who support gay rights, because they don't feel comfortable taking on the role of being gay

that means there's always less profit to be had by having a forced gay protagonist. It's always a stance of showing support for gays over making profit, which is why it's a political decision.

It's intentionally lessening your mass appeal.

Options never cause this problem. Allowing versus forcing, there's a world of difference. A forced gay protagonist isn't inclusive, it's exclusive.

I'm sometimes uncomfortable taking on the role of a aggressive guy who does morally questionable things but you don't see me complaining about it, I don't see the issue unless your subject to dating sim style sex scenes

there is a difference between being mainstream and being a slave to what the charts say..the latter is a big problem in the gaming industry right now and it may not change for some time...but that aside the thing is people don't know what they want until you give it to them,

Gravity has the [i/]audacity[/i] to put a women in the lead role...and nobody gave a shit because it was a thrill ride of a movie

 

[Cerebrawl]

I'm sometimes uncomfortable taking on the role of a aggressive guy who does morally questionable things but you don't see me complaining about it, I don't see the issue unless your subject to dating sim style sex scenes

Well, people play what they like to play and feel comfortable with. I don't like sports games so I don't play sports games. Many people feel uncomfortable playing gay, so they don't, and they don't buy those games.

Heck I'm vocally and publically pro gay rights. But I don't feel comfortable watching Brokeback Mountain, so I didn't.

there is a difference between being mainstream and being a slave to what the charts say..the latter is a big problem in the gaming industry right now and it may not change for some time...but that aside the thing is people don't know what they want until you give it to them,

That sounds really really bad, no offense, maybe it's just the wording. "People don't know if they like being gay until they try!"

Sexuality isn't a choice, it's a core of who you are. This sounds like the flipside of "cure the gay" and "gay lifestyle" bullshit.

Gravity has the [i/]audacity[/i] to put a women in the lead role...and nobody gave a shit because it was a thrill ride of a movie

Oh please. Female movie leads is well accepted and isn't anywhere near as controversial, this is a pure red herring. Heck considering that 51% of the population is female, it's catering to the majority.

 

[Vault101]

That sounds really really bad, no offense, maybe it's just the wording. "People don't know if they like being gay until they try!"

Sexuality isn't a choice, it's a core of who you are. This sounds like the flipside of "cure the gay" and "gay lifestyle" bullshit.

I didn't mean it in regard to that..I meant it in regard too following flowcharts in regards to what gets made...for example aside from a painfully typical protagonist Bioshock infinite breaks what is conventionally considered "popular" (and by conventionally I mean [i/]reeeeeaaaalllly[/i] conventionally because this is games were talking about) more obvious if you compare it too last of us which ticks all the boxes (but stands out in its own right because its just plain [i/]good[/i])

anyway what if there were no sex scenes in Broke back? (and really there was only the one that had practically no nudity and some kissing) maybe this is something I didn't understand (being female who is definitely not opposed to some girl on girl action) that a guy can completely understand and support the need for gay rights...yet have such a strong revulsion to seeing the act....this seems odd to me

[quote/]Oh please. Female movie leads is well accepted and isn't anywhere near as controversial, this is a pure red herring. Heck considering that 51% of the population is female, it's catering to the majority.[/quote]

still not as much of a thing as they should be...which is pretty pathetic when you think about it

 

[Cerebrawl]

That sounds really really bad, no offense, maybe it's just the wording. "People don't know if they like being gay until they try!"

Sexuality isn't a choice, it's a core of who you are. This sounds like the flipside of "cure the gay" and "gay lifestyle" bullshit.

I didn't mean it in regard to that..I meant it in regard too following flowcharts in regards to what gets made...for example aside from a painfully typical protagonist Bioshock infinite breaks what is conventionally considered "popular" (and by conventionally I mean [i/]reeeeeaaaalllly[/i] conventionally because this is games were talking about) more obvious if you compare it too last of us which ticks all the boxes (but stands out in its own right because its just plain [i/]good[/i])

Well, it's more about not alienating potential customers than ticking all the boxes. I'm only talking about this from a business sense standpoint btw. I don't mind games with gay protagonists being made, heck go for it. I just won't buy them, and the same is true for a large segment of gamers.

So a business have to weigh mass market appeal versus niche appeal. Heck for some indies it might even make sense purely because the controversy will get them free marketing, as well as a target audience more likely to buy it for lack of competition in the niche and to support gay rights, etc. Just don't expect the big budget titles to limit themselves this way any time soon.

Again options are fine, but when you force it, expect backlash. Especially if as you say, you make sexuality a big part of the character. Casually gay protagonists with no sexual or romantic ties ingame can be ignored much easier than explicitly gay romance and sex. See bisexual Axon in Borderlands 2, which hardly made a splash(especially since there's other options as well).

Sexuality is a touchy subject. It's just the reality of the situation.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

That sounds really really bad, no offense, maybe it's just the wording. "People don't know if they like being gay until they try!"

Sexuality isn't a choice, it's a core of who you are. This sounds like the flipside of "cure the gay" and "gay lifestyle" bullshit.

I didn't mean it in regard to that..I meant it in regard too following flowcharts in regards to what gets made...for example aside from a painfully typical protagonist Bioshock infinite breaks what is conventionally considered "popular" (and by conventionally I mean [i/]reeeeeaaaalllly[/i] conventionally because this is games were talking about) more obvious if you compare it too last of us which ticks all the boxes (but stands out in its own right because its just plain [i/]good[/i])

Well, it's more about not alienating potential customers than ticking all the boxes. I'm only talking about this from a business sense standpoint btw. I don't mind games with gay protagonists being made, heck go for it. I just won't buy them, and the same is true for a large segment of gamers.

Gay characters like Commander Sheppard? Or Gay characters like the living sterotypes I see on the Bravo Network?

Cause I'm fine with a gay character that is actually cool and kick some ass. I'm not okay playing as a character I feel sets the gay rights movement years and years. Real gay people aren't like that.

 

[Cerebrawl]

Gay characters like Commander Sheppard? Or Gay characters like the living sterotypes I see on the Bravo Network?

What makes Shepard acceptable to most people is that his sexuality is the player's choice, you're not forced to go gay. I don't even know what Bravo Network is.

Forcing "the gay" in a big budget/mass marketed game is going to get you some serious backlash.

Allowing the choice, not so much.

See Saints Row 3 for one of the most open and free ones.

I can't think of many super stereotypical/negative gay characters in recent gaming, I'm sure they exist, but I can't think of one off-hand. I think I'd have to go back to a 90s JRPG or something, maybe one of you can jog my memory, or maybe I just don't play the games/genres where it comes up, oh wait I think one of the bad guys in Guilty Gear X is gay, don't recall him being a stereotype though. I can however think of several casually gay side characters(I've already mentioned Kaidan and Arcade Gannon in this thread).

 

[Vault101]

[snip).

what is "forcing the gay"? would it be like?....Joel from Last of Us implied to have had a male partner and lost him before or during the initial outbreak? and theres this other male charachter whom they have a few "talk about your feelings and shit" romance scenes?

would it be if Sam from Tomb Raider 2013 was Laras girlfriend? (that is...not a huge stretch to be honest though)

like where do you draw the line? kissing? hand holding? talking about feelings? smiling and making eye contact?

 

[Cerebrawl]

[snip).

what is "forcing the gay"? would it be like?....Joel from Last of Us implied to have had a male partner and lost him before or during the initial outbreak? and theres this other male charachter whom they have a few "talk about your feelings and shit" romance scenes?

would it be if Sam from Tomb Raider 2013 was Laras girlfriend? (that is...not a huge stretch to be honest though)

Don't have a console, haven't played Last of Us, can't comment on it. As for Lara, as with many men, I don't mind lesbianism, and it's speculative rather than graphic.

like where do you draw the line? kissing? hand holding? talking about feelings? smiling and making eye contact?

This approaches badgering. But it depends on the intensity, and how invested in the character I am. If I've been blissfully unaware and empathising with the character, especially if I'm playing it, then yeah it's going to put me off with even feel talk, otherwise the line is pretty much at kissing and/or caressing. So it depends on severity, and how much agency I've invested.

Note that I've been caressed against my will IRL, it's creepy and I felt violated, so yeah it doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Vault101]

This approaches badgering. But it depends on the intensity, and how invested in the character I am. If I've been blissfully unaware and empathising with the character, especially if I'm playing it, then yeah it's going to put me off with even feel talk, otherwise the line is pretty much at kissing and/or caressing. So it depends on severity, and how much agency I've invested.

I don't mean to badger...its just you keep talking about players not wanting to play as gay characters and I'm trying to understand exactly what you mean by that

[quote/]If I've been blissfully unaware and empathising with the character, especially if I'm playing it, then yeah it's going to put me off with even feel talk,[/quote]

so...uncharted but replace Elana with a man....

[quote/]Note that I've been caressed against my will IRL, it's creepy and I felt violated, so yeah it doesn't sit well with me.[/quote]

thats sucks and no one likes to have their space violated....but two adults having a PG romantic connection is not the same thing

 

[Cerebrawl]

so...uncharted but replace Elana with a man....

Again, not a console gamer, haven't played it.

thats sucks and no one likes to have their space violated....but two adults having a PG romantic connection is not the same thing

It's close, at least it is to me. Maybe my brain is wired differently, but I've got the impression this is pretty common: my sense of empathy puts me in others peoples shoes, and I can't help that. It's automatic, so it becomes a mental violation. It's called Affective Empathy or Emotional Empathy, look it up. It grosses me out, because I don't want to participate, it feels instinctively wrong, and I feel violated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy

It's similar to men seeing another guy being hit in the balls and instantly wincing.