Eldar 6th edition release in a week

[Adeptus Aspartem]

The Taubook didn't work in 5th, and does not in 6th. The main problem, decent troops, still remain. Things that needed change didn't get any. It was mostly shuffling some numbers around but besides the Riptide it's the same friggin codex as before without S10 guns on the XV88.
Which means: Tau is still a solid ally, but a bad choice for a main force.
Alot of people were already aware this was going to happen, since the ally chart made the Tau the whores of the universe with 12 or so allies.
Don't get me wrong, it's not as if their not playable, they were my main army a long time, but for a tournament play their performance is to unstable to be considered anything but mediocre. Sadly, it remains the 2nd strongest Xenos codex (3rd if we count Chaos as Xenos and not as evil Imperials).

tl;dr => Codex changed numbers around, unplayable units still unplayable, bad troops not fixed

But the main strengths of the Tau are still there. Fire Warriors are good value for 9 points, markerlights are still twisted, and Crisis suits stayed the same/got better. True, the stuff previously not worth taking still isn't, but the good stuff is still pretty damn good. Only major changes where "Riptides of Crisis for Elites?" and the removal of "Broadside or Hammerhead for Heavy Support?", as Hammerheads are now simply better.

The main strengths of the Tau army is being allies. I already said, they're fine as allies. They're a horrible weak main force. Fire Warriors are not good troops. They can't/couldn't contest for shit, they got no special weapons and their transport is/was crap. Everything that was shit, stay'd shit. And Hammerheads are still bad and if i'd tell you to reall rethink ever picking something other than Broadsides. Both versions are better and Tau can't do Mech, so you're HH's are the only thing eating all the AT and usually die turn 1, maybe turn 2.

What is that view based on? Why the assuption that every decision GW make is a mustache-twirling evil scheme to screw their customers (not to say those haven't been made before, bloody Finecast)?

EDIT: Better example of the kind of evil you're talking, repackaging Dire Avengers into five per box, then charging more for the fucking box. But again, while they pull shit like this, I don't see evidence for a conspiracy while they're writng the rules.

What the hell are you talking about? Conspiracy? When GW puts out a new Codex/Edition, their goal is to sell the most models possible. So they change the rules accordingly hoping that they meet that goal.
It has nothing to with evil mustache twirling. On top of that they're just stupid, because they've yet to figure out that a good product would sell itself without those dick-moves.

Which flyersare broken, and which have been nerfed? Overall, I've not been too impressed with how flyers work, due to their movement rules, you only seem to get 2 turns shooting at what you want to target, which is not ideal in a 6/7 turn game.

Criossant's, Vendetta and mainly the Helldrake. They're basically immortal (though Tau allies changed that slightly) and way to good pointswise. Specially the Helldrake removes ~5-7 Marines per turn easily. 2 Helldrakes alone are usually enough to eradicate half your troops if played well.
I know that both the Vendetta & the Necroissants got some nerf but i cba to search it again, but if you're interessted you'd probably find it somewhere on yesthetruthhurts, they talked about it a few times.

If Mech is still stronger, how is there a "forced shift onto foot"? Also, which Xenos? The armies really play differently. If you footslog Dark Eldar, you're going to lose, but the Ork horde has lost little/none of its viability this edition. Then there's Nids, who never had the option. Not all Xenos are equivalent.

DEldar is a 4th ed codex and never worked.
Orks never had viabilty, got a little bit with 6th. Specially the removal of fearless wounds helped. And even nowadays "working" Orc lists tend to focus on putting down 150+ models and just outsustain you - what a fun game.
Nid's are dead since the end of 4th, with the only exception of playing 6 Tervigons to draw on every game.
Eldar are craptastic overpriced. Necrons are boring because except the Fliers the codex is the same crap as before.
Demons, lol.
And Tau as the bitches of the ally table and a mediocre army at best.

What kind of points are you talking about here? What are these lists? Because even Guard will struggle to fit that many vehivcles into a normal 1500/2000 point list.

Just from what i remember: For 2k, there'll be ~16 vehicles.

Coteaz, 6 Warbands (5 dudes /w Stormbolters) in Razorback /w PsyHeavybolter, 3 PsyfleDreads
Company CS in Chim and around 6 of Infantrysquads in Chims.

You'll end up with 6 Razorbacks, 7 Chimeras, 3 Dreads and everything except the Dread + 155pts HQ is scoring.
Heavy Armor is also no problem, since you can field up to ~16 Melter on 6 diffrent units.
The rest eats 18x TL S6, 21x S6 and 12x S8 from only the vehicles. The other 60 S5 and 50-100 S3 shots would follow.

Just by heart it's not perfect, but still incredibly scary. The costing point of this army should clock in around ~1'200 euros easily.

 

[Quazimofo]

I just don't like the chicken legs. I heard that wraithguard are finally plastic, and with a price reduction (yes, you heard that right, lower price than current for 5 wraithguard).

Wait... Games workshop are lowering prices? That can't be right, heck when they switch from metal to a resin that cost half as much to make the miniatures from, they still jacked the prices up.

No bull, wraithguard went from 69 in finecast for a box of 5 to a double-box of 5 guard/blades for 50.

I guess it really is true what a friend of mine who was ex-gw (and still has stock int he company) told me: GW doesn't increase prices out of greed, the adjust prices to fit costs of production. At least most of the time.

 

[Megalodon]

An Autarch and a Wraithlord shouldn't have the same amount of wounds buts they do.

True, and the Wraithlord is a bit of an anomlay for a Monstrous Creature, the rest sitting on 4/5/6 wounds. Plus Wraithlords get a save when they're wounded, if they had given vehicles a save along with thier hull points, I would dislike the mechanic less.

The main strengths of the Tau army is being allies. I already said, they're fine as allies. They're a horrible weak main force. Fire Warriors are not good troops. They can't/couldn't contest for shit, they got no special weapons and their transport is/was crap. Everything that was shit, stay'd shit. And Hammerheads are still bad and if i'd tell you to reall rethink ever picking something other than Broadsides. Both versions are better and Tau can't do Mech, so you're HH's are the only thing eating all the AT and usually die turn 1, maybe turn 2.

9 points for a model with a 4+ save and the best small arm in the game isn't good value to you? It doesn't matter that Fire Warriors can't take special weapons, they have pulse rifles. Likewise, Dire Avengers aren't crap because they cann only have shuriken catapults. Why can't they contest? Because they can't fight in assault? If that's the case then Imperial Guard and Necrons also have crap troops.

Hammerheads bad? 145 ponts for a 13, 12, 10 tank wth BS4, a buffed cover save and a railgun is bad according to you? Or do you just subscribe to the idea that you should take no tanks or all tanks? Worried that they'll take all the heavy fire from the enemy, add a Riptide or two, that will probably distarct the enmey's big guns.

What the hell are you talking about? Conspiracy? When GW puts out a new Codex/Edition, their goal is to sell the most models possible. So they change the rules accordingly hoping that they meet that goal.

I'm talking about your assuption that rules changes are not made because it's a good design idea, or for game balance, but ONLY becuase they want to sell more, different models. Of course they do want to sell models, but every rules adjustment is unlikely to be entirely motivated by selling models, "fixing" the rules is a valid motivation too.
"The shift onto foot was only made, because they wanted to sell models - since they've sold metal boxes before, now they want you to field 100 foot soldiers. It had nothing to do with balance or game design."

On top of that they're just stupid, because they've yet to figure out that a good product would sell itself without those dick-moves.

Damn right about this.

If Mech is still stronger, how is there a "forced shift onto foot"? Also, which Xenos? The armies really play differently. If you footslog Dark Eldar, you're going to lose, but the Ork horde has lost little/none of its viability this edition. Then there's Nids, who never had the option. Not all Xenos are equivalent.

DEldar is a 4th ed codex and never worked.
Orks never had viabilty, got a little bit with 6th. Specially the removal of fearless wounds helped. And even nowadays "working" Orc lists tend to focus on putting down 150+ models and just outsustain you - what a fun game.
Nid's are dead since the end of 4th, with the only exception of playing 6 Tervigons to draw on every game.
Eldar are craptastic overpriced. Necrons are boring because except the Fliers the codex is the same crap as before.
Demons, lol.
And Tau as the bitches of the ally table and a mediocre army at best.

Firstly, DE are a 5th ed codex, and remain a highly effective one. They're just the glass hammer that they should be. Orks never had viability? Did you never hear about the hell of the the 5th ed Nob Biker list? While they are feeling thier age these days, to say they never were viable is patently false. Why are Nids dead for 2 editions now? Necrons crap? The old dex wasn't crap, just boring, which has been mixed up nicely this dex.

Also you didn't answer my question about you contradicting yourself abut mech vs "forced shift onto foot".

 

[Batou667]

How do the big walkers function on the tabletop? Are they just really big dreadnoughts, or are they war machines with multiple structure points, etc?

5 wound, 2+save monstrous creaturesfor the most part.

I see.. are they still vulnerable to being instakilled, or has that been taken out of the rules?

 

[Megalodon]

How do the big walkers function on the tabletop? Are they just really big dreadnoughts, or are they war machines with multiple structure points, etc?

5 wound, 2+save monstrous creaturesfor the most part.

I see.. are they still vulnerable to being instakilled, or has that been taken out of the rules?

They can, but as most are T6, you can't use high strength weaponry to do it, but special weaponry with Instant Death will still work (like force weapons).

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

9 points for a model with a 4+ save and the best small arm in the game isn't good value to you? It doesn't matter that Fire Warriors can't take special weapons, they have pulse rifles. Likewise, Dire Avengers aren't crap because they cann only have shuriken catapults. Why can't they contest? Because they can't fight in assault? If that's the case then Imperial Guard and Necrons also have crap troops.

Hammerheads bad? 145 ponts for a 13, 12, 10 tank wth BS4, a buffed cover save and a railgun is bad according to you? Or do you just subscribe to the idea that you should take no tanks or all tanks? Worried that they'll take all the heavy fire from the enemy, add a Riptide or two, that will probably distarct the enmey's big guns.

What the hell are you talking about? Conspiracy? When GW puts out a new Codex/Edition, their goal is to sell the most models possible. So they change the rules accordingly hoping that they meet that goal.

I'm talking about your assuption that rules changes are not made because it's a good design idea, or for game balance, but ONLY becuase they want to sell more, different models. Of course they do want to sell models, but every rules adjustment is unlikely to be entirely motivated by selling models, "fixing" the rules is a valid motivation too.
"The shift onto foot was only made, because they wanted to sell models - since they've sold metal boxes before, now they want you to field 100 foot soldiers. It had nothing to do with balance or game design."

On top of that they're just stupid, because they've yet to figure out that a good product would sell itself without those dick-moves.

Damn right about this.

If Mech is still stronger, how is there a "forced shift onto foot"? Also, which Xenos? The armies really play differently. If you footslog Dark Eldar, you're going to lose, but the Ork horde has lost little/none of its viability this edition. Then there's Nids, who never had the option. Not all Xenos are equivalent.

DEldar is a 4th ed codex and never worked.
Orks never had viabilty, got a little bit with 6th. Specially the removal of fearless wounds helped. And even nowadays "working" Orc lists tend to focus on putting down 150+ models and just outsustain you - what a fun game.
Nid's are dead since the end of 4th, with the only exception of playing 6 Tervigons to draw on every game.
Eldar are craptastic overpriced. Necrons are boring because except the Fliers the codex is the same crap as before.
Demons, lol.
And Tau as the bitches of the ally table and a mediocre army at best.

Firstly, DE are a 5th ed codex, and remain a highly effective one. They're just the glass hammer that they should be. Orks never had viability? Did you never hear about the hell of the the 5th ed Nob Biker list? While they are feeling thier age these days, to say they never were viable is patently false. Why are Nids dead for 2 editions now? Necrons crap? The old dex wasn't crap, just boring, which has been mixed up nicely this dex.

Also you didn't answer my question about you contradicting yourself abut mech vs "forced shift onto foot".

Sorry dude. There are just to many misconceptions in this posts for me. This discussion would take ages and i'm not in the mood to disect this Nothing personal or anything.
I seriously recommend you to check out yesthetruthhurts.com.

 

[Megalodon]

Sorry dude. There are just to many misconceptions in this posts for me. This discussion would take ages and i'm not in the mood to disect this Nothing personal or anything.
I seriously recommend you to check out yesthetruthhurts.com.

Gonna have to disagree here, that site was hilariously bad. 1d4 chan gives better advice.

 

[Vivi22]

Sorry dude. There are just to many misconceptions in this posts for me.

Too many misconceptions when you're the guy saying things like DE are a 4th edition codex? Or that Necrons are the same as before except flyers? Or that the only lists Nid's have involve 6 Tervigons (I'd admit they're still not competitive, but 6th edition made a lot of other units more viable than they'd been since 4th edition)?

Sorry, but you can't claim that someone else has too many misconceptions about the game to continue debating with them when some of your info is just flat out and objectively wrong.

 

[Vivi22]

I would love to get into Warhammer but the cost has always kept me away sadly.

Don't get me wrong, the hobby isn't exactly cheap. On the other hand, it does offer pretty good value in time vs money spent. Say a box like this costing £23.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440177a&prodId=prod260003a&rootCatGameStyle=

Now that's a couple of hours to assemble the figures, then painting each one takes a good few hours too. So you're looking at probably at least 20-30 hours spent assembling, painting and basing them. Then putting a time on gaming with them is much harder. But contrast that to games where a new £40 game will generally take 8-16 hours to beat.

Again not saying it's cheap, but realistically it's a hobby not massively worse than most.

I would generally agree with this assessment, though I will say some other war games just have a substantially better cost to value ratio. If all you're interested in is painting models then there are some GW models and units that aren't bad as far as value, but some others are absolutely awful (the amount it would cost to buy models for a single Dark Eldar Beastmaster unit is so mind blowingly absurd that you can buy entire playable armies for the same amount of money for example).

Personally, I got into Warmachine and Hordes a few months back and as far as having models to paint and getting a playable army to start out with it's just got GW beat hands down. It can certainly get pretty expensive as you add units and models and grow your armies, but I was able to buy the Warmachine rulebook, an army starter pack, an extra single model, and a set of faction coloured paints for less than the 40k rulebook costs on its own (to say nothing of adding in a Codex and everything else). Hell, when I started 40K and got the Tyranid battlebox, I still technically didn't have a legal army to field despite it costing me more than $120. For people where overall cost is a concern, I really wouldn't recommend any GW games. There are just better options for getting from having nothing to having models on the table ready to play.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Sorry dude. There are just to many misconceptions in this posts for me.

Too many misconceptions when you're the guy saying things like DE are a 4th edition codex? Or that Necrons are the same as before except flyers? Or that the only lists Nid's have involve 6 Tervigons (I'd admit they're still not competitive, but 6th edition made a lot of other units more viable than they'd been since 4th edition)?

Sorry, but you can't claim that someone else has too many misconceptions about the game to continue debating with them when some of your info is just flat out and objectively wrong.

Uh, to clarify about the Deldar: Yes, it was released in 5th. The codex is still a 4th edition codex by design. Stuff like the stupid transport restriction are clearly 4th edition baggage (or garbage). As it seems i've to spell out everything for you.

How "Necrons are still boring" and "Tyras are not viable" can be "objectively" wrong i don't know though.
Necrons still have around 50-75% crap in their codex and have little to no diversity in builds, that's all i wanted to say with that statement.

And Tyras are shit. They're not viable. No build is viable. They weren't in 5th, were mech just steamrolled them and they keep on sucking in 6th.
Also i keep by my statement, the only way to not lose with Tyras is play 6 Tervs and hundreds of gaunts so the time runs out. Otherwise you lose.

 

[Vivi22]

Uh, to clarify about the Deldar: Yes, it was released in 5th. The codex is still a 4th edition codex by design. Stuff like the stupid transport restriction are clearly 4th edition baggage (or garbage). As it seems i've to spell out everything for you.

If what you said was remotely accurate in the first place, you wouldn't need to "spell anything out". Or in other words, backtrack on your statements so they make any sense.

How "Necrons are still boring" and "Tyras are not viable" can be "objectively" wrong i don't know though.
Necrons still have around 50-75% crap in their codex and have little to no diversity in builds, that's all i wanted to say with that statement.

And Tyras are shit. They're not viable. No build is viable. They weren't in 5th, were mech just steamrolled them and they keep on sucking in 6th.
Also i keep by my statement, the only way to not lose with Tyras is play 6 Tervs and hundreds of gaunts so the time runs out. Otherwise you lose.

Congratulations on not actually arguing against the actual things I said in my post and instead arguing against some points you imagined I said. Well done. I can see why you think everyone else is wrong since you don't seem to listen and instead just attack strawmen.

 

[Megalodon]

I would generally agree with this assessment, though I will say some other war games just have a substantially better cost to value ratio. If all you're interested in is painting models then there are some GW models and units that aren't bad as far as value, but some others are absolutely awful (the amount it would cost to buy models for a single Dark Eldar Beastmaster unit is so mind blowingly absurd that you can buy entire playable armies for the same amount of money for example).

Personally, I got into Warmachine and Hordes a few months back and as far as having models to paint and getting a playable army to start out with it's just got GW beat hands down. It can certainly get pretty expensive as you add units and models and grow your armies, but I was able to buy the Warmachine rulebook, an army starter pack, an extra single model, and a set of faction coloured paints for less than the 40k rulebook costs on its own (to say nothing of adding in a Codex and everything else). Hell, when I started 40K and got the Tyranid battlebox, I still technically didn't have a legal army to field despite it costing me more than $120. For people where overall cost is a concern, I really wouldn't recommend any GW games. There are just better options for getting from having nothing to having models on the table ready to play.

Fair points. I know I'm in many ways a bad example. as I've been following GW since I was 6, and haven't found another game to "click" properly with me, so I keep buying stuff (admittedly in less volume recently due to thoer pricing). But if a mate on minimum wage can continue to collect an army, then the hobby isn't as cost-prohibitive as peopel make out, which was the point I was trying to get across.

 

[Azahul]

And to everyone who wants to start with Miniature Gaming: Don't.
Currently the whole industry is on a decline since years. The costs are gettin' crazier than ever, and there's nothing besides some fun matches. Most tournaments are shit and the most companies don't support their own game very well - at least not compared to E-Sports, MTG or even Boardgames like Dominion/Settlers of Catan.
Also 3D-Printers are on their way and few miniature players already started producing their minis themselves because it's cheaper.

Unless Hasbro/Wizards buys one of those trainwrecks and revives the genre i'd bet miniature gaming dies in few year. My last hope is currently the Shadowrun miniature game that's in the making, since the designers they got on board are crazy: Gregory Marques, Mike Elliot and James Lin 3 MTG R&D fellas. Rob Heinsoo and Rob Watkins designers from D&D 3.5/4 Edition and Conan Chamberlain who worked on over 50 diffrent projects with Vivendi, EA, Disney and more.
If that game fails too, the genre will die out.

Oh come on, the whole industry isn't doing as badly as that. Sure, everyone's laughing at the mess GW is making of themselves, but it's allowing a whole spate of different games to spring up in its place. I switched to Warmachine/Hordes by Privateer Press ages ago, and could not be happier. The rules are written by people that actually get the concept of balance (and given the huge number of options in the game, have achieved a miracle in making all the factions about as equal as I'd expect for a game outside of Chess). As others have mentioned, Dystopian Wars and Infinity are taking off. The industry grows better the more stupid decisions GW makes. It's been struggling under GW's monopoly for a long time now, but a lot of the smaller companies are doing really well now. And most of them actually understand that it's better to design a game that people will want to buy extra models for, rather than feel obliged to because it's the only way to be competitive.

 

[VeneratedWulfen93]

@Adeptus Aspartem

The Tau are brutal in my local GW and gaming club. A few weeks ago we had a tournament at the club and first and second place was taken by Tau, even when there were really nasty Imperial Guard lists and a Draigo-wing list.

The whole argument over 'viable' is stupid. If somebody likes a model or army then they have every right to buy it. 40k is a hobby first and a game second. It would be a dark place indeed if it was full of people trying to make the nastiest or most competitive lists, I wouldn't still be playing if that was the case. Around here if there is something to play for then we usually go for the win but if theres no events on we usually just have fun and try to make interesting lists.

As for Dark Eldar I play them and they work exactly as they should, lightening fast with heavy firepower but die when tickled. I either win or get shot to pieces, especially against Tau, its the match-up that kills Dark Eldar.

I also know two Tyranid players. One player has a swarm army that few people can bring enough guns to kill at 1500 points and the other has a wierd deep strike based army with ymgarl genestealers charging turn 1. Both are nasty lists that take some cracking or knowledge to avoid being overrun by them.

Tournaments are obviously a big deal to some people and i won't begrudge competitive players as I am quite competitive myself but the meta surrounding them has always put me off. Triple Hell-drake lists, nine 'Cron flier lists and so on.

GW's products also are not 'declining' the advent of 6th brought many new players and vets to the game, we lost alot two when all the crybaby's left because their precious rules changed but all in all every store I go to for gaming is packed and the club I attend has a heap of 40k players.

I guess differant people take up the hobby for different reasons. I started playing because I like the Eldar models and fluff as well as how colourful they were on the battlefield. Being able to use them and use them well in games is a bonus.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Slightly more on topic again, from the point of view of a now-retired Eldar player- I really don't like the Wraithknight model. It has none of the grace of the Forge World titan models or the existing Wraithlord, it just looks like something directly out of an anime. The Wraithfighter looks pretty neat though.

 

[Raesvelg]

Not a fan of YTTH.

Stelek's generally been a lot of talk that never really shows up all that well in tournament rankings, and falls back on the classic tired crutch of opponent quality if anyone succeeds with a list he doesn't consider to be top-tier. The tournament meta has gone far enough off the reservation at this point that people advocate simply taking as many miniatures as possible so as to run out the clock, and consider that to be a valid tactic.

I've seen his type before, the ones that struggled with several editions of the game but had one particular edition that they really enjoyed, and declare all the other editions to be garbage, one play style they're good at and declare all others to be terrible, and one scenario they like to play in, and all others force them to do things they don't want to do, and are as such, terrible.

GW is going through another of their teething phases again. It happens, and you generally just have to suffer until your preferred army has been updated. Once flyers are an accepted part of the meta and every army has an organic counter to them, they'll be less horrifying. Once armies that are particularly behind have had their points updated to reflect the new rules, things won't be quite so bad. It's a shitty period for any edition of the game, and yet it's always the one in which people declare it to be the end of the hobby as a whole.

I've seen it in every edition transition, and I'm sure I'll keep seeing it in the future.

As for the Eldar, I'm... reasonably enthused about the release. 6th Edition was enough of a shift from 5th that the 4th Ed books aren't particularly viable anymore. Eldar vs Flyers was basically a death sentence for pure Eldar, or an incredible nuisance for Eldar that took allies. An awful lot of the list was terribly overcosted, a lot of previous tactics were completely invalid, and a new book offers the opportunity to fix a lot of those problems.

 

[VeneratedWulfen93]

++UPDATE++

A staff member from my local GW gave me a sneak look at the Eldar codex last night. So far I am damn impressed. Exarchs are nigh-undeafatable in challenges with a plethora of special rule options. Dark Reapers have been retoole from anti-infantry at range to anti-everything at range, with a choice of 2 missle types and larger squads. Guardians are now 9 points but the same stat-line as a Kabalite warrior. Their weapons platforms are now relentless so can be moved, ran and fired as per the Battle Prowess army rule.

Asurman is cheaper and worth his weight in gold, he must be the armies warlord if he is included and gets D3 warlord traits instead of 1. Karandras is now god since the Scorpions claw now doubles strength WITHOUT an initiative penalty making him Strength 8 Initiative 7.

I could go on and on but there is so much goodness throught that I would essentially be just writing the whole thing out.