Elder scrolls- two steps forward, two steps back?

[The_Lost_King]

Well the higher damage speels usually use a lot of magicka so you have to be a pretty hight level to use them unless you are using other , enchanting exploits which you need perks for. Happy?

They tried that with Oblivion's spell making system, and people were still able to make spells that paralyzed people for like two full minutes, and did 10 damage a second each second for those two minutes, and that cost nearly nothing.

You could easily replace spellmakingwith smithing and 1 hit spell with a million damage sword.

Smithing by itself doesn't make swords OP, 100 smithing skill+dragon smithing perk, can only take a Dragonbone sword up to 75 damage, and even with 3 +25% smithign items, it only goes up to 100, which is low considering most higher level Drauger have 1000+ hp, many higher level Falmer have like 900, and higher level dragons have 3000+. Smithing+alchemy+enchanting exploits combined with a butt ton of perks, and potions, and enchanted objects,make smithing OP. But each of those skills in itself isn't.

There also is a very large difference between just making a overpwoered spell, and power gaming with a bunch of specially made items and potions in order to do something like smithing exploits.

No there isn't. The difference is one is easier. That is it. You still don't have to uuse it so it doesn't matter if it is op or not because it is a fucking single player game! People play how they want and it doesn't affect you that there is an exploit. you don't have to use it. It won't hurt you in any way.

While in Skyrim
you somehow feel weaker as the game progresses compared to that warrior guy over there. Spell Creation could fix this because you could create spells equal to the warriors damage or even greater than if you want to go that way. Spell making gives you freedom that the mage lacks, well he atleast lacks freedom in my opinion, however it would still be more freedom.

The problem I had with spell creation was that there was little use in moderation. If you have 100 Magicka then there's no point in making a spell that costs 50 Magicka and two shots a target as opposed to a spell that costs 100 Magicka and one shots them. It felt like a very linear exercise like "I've got an extra 10 Magicka now, I'd better recreate all these identical spells making them a bit more powerful". I would like to see a proper spell creation system for future games, but it's not like the old system was anything to cry about losing. It sounded like a great idea, but it didn't actually do anything mechanically different.

Well then use it in moderation . If someone else doesn't use it in moderation and you do it doesn't matter. it is a single player game, this is Skyrim not TSO.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Yeah, but the books in-game are 99% propoganda, and not entirely true.

This however was written in code and later confirmed by one of the series lore writers.

"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

No there isn't. The difference is one is easier. That is it. You still don't have to uuse it so it doesn't matter if it is op or not because it is a fucking single player game! People play how they want and it doesn't affect you that there is an exploit. you don't have to use it. It won't hurt you in any way.

Single-player games should at least have some attempt at balance, or at keeping the high level exploits out of the hand of people without having them first have to do a lot to get ot them.

The "its a single player game who cares about balance" excuse is a bad one, because it ignores the fact that gameplay should reflect the lore of the world to some extent, or else the game becomes unbelievable with itself.

 

[Joccaren]

I've been to those sites before, and frankly, they are worse then the Morrowind nostalgia people, they are everything wrong with videogame players nowadays.

Those "hardcore" RPG sites are filled with people stuck in the past, using obsolete systems, and hating on the current gen because it is different. they are the "old man who hates the younger generations music" stereotype defined.

Dice-roll combat only exists in the D&d board game because you cant recreate real-time combat against dragons IRL, games had a similar limitation during the old-days, which is why they needed it, but those technological limitations are gone, and thus it isn;t needed. Similarly, attribute systems only exist in D&D boardgame because the boardgame cant accurately simulate your powers, game also had a similar limitations, which now, no longer exist. D&D, and its ilk, are only "complex" because technology sucked so much to where it couldn't properly reflect a player's ability so they have to create proxy systems to simulate it.

However, due to technological progress, those proxy systems are no longer needed, and making games in that style just because you like it more is only the same as using a old 1980' brick cellphone and calling it "complex" because it is harder to use, sure its more complex, but that's only because its so out-of-date.

I have no desire to see the return of old-school RPG systems that only existed due to technological limitations outside of a few niche retro games. I would much rather play an RPG based on MY ability, not come computer throwing up RNG BS that takes most of the game out of my hands.

Whilst a number of things get blown out of proportion on those sorts of sites, RPG mechanics are not just 'Old outdated systems that only existed because technological limitations'. For one, even in the early days of gaming we had doom and its ilk. Games where you were in first person and fighting enemies. Were they as immersive as modern equivalents? No, but if you wanted to make a game about fighting dragons and things with your own skills it was possible.
You actually hit the reason a lot of people like these systems right on the head in your last paragraph. What happens isn't up to their ability, but based on their characters ability. If you don't want to have to have fast reflexes to do well at the game, or want to have to spam buttons to get anything done, the old style RPG concept is more for you. You don't have to do all the fighting, you don't have to be pro at killing dragons, you just have to design and lead someone who is. Designing all the stats and such to allow your character to do this is part of the fun. Whilst it may not be to your taste, its hardly a worse, out of date game mechanic because of such.
Its like saying manual cars are old and out of date, and should stop being made because we have automatics now. Sure, that's your taste and opinion, but others have their reasons for preferring the other side.

 

[Smolderin]

Oh my god...this again.

Of course what can I do right? My opinion goes against the majority. Most people think their games are being dumbed down with each installment and yet whenever I play through games like Skyrim, all I am seeing is improvement after improvement. The combat? Great, it's versatile, and allows you to play how you want. The story? Morrowind was good but it's story was much to long, Oblivion's was to short, but Skyrim hit the perfect length. The world itself? Beautiful and varied from snowy mountains, to vast caverns and forests. My favorite aspect is still in the game to, the books which contain all that beautiful lore.

And yet I see all these people complain and complain about each new installment. It's something like a tradition. For all the games improvements on the last installment, the last one is still for some reason unanimously better. Excuses and explanations abound to on why this is so, and yet no one focuses on the positives. Where Skyrim is concerned, the positives clearly outweigh the negatives. But in the end this all just my opinion..an opinion people have a good habit of calling me out on for, but an opinion nonetheless.

I just wish people would get the veil out of their eyes and focus on the good instead of the bad. Bethesda's games have their flaws to be sure but with each game, they ultimately achieve what they set out to do. People only say it's 1 step forwards (or in this threads case, 2) but 2 steps back, but I really do think its because they put to much emphasis on the negatives aspects of the games.

I'll stop now since I'm most likely opening up a can of worms here. No matter what I say people seem to feel so strongly about what is wrong with Bethesdas games that no matter what I say, there views won't be changed, but oh, they will definitely respond and fight me to the death in a verbal war to prove that I am wrong. But yet all I hear is *wah wah wah wah*.

So please, do go ahead and keep it up guys. Me, I'll just go ahead and enjoy Bethesda's games as they get better and better.

(*This is more of a 1 time statement, so feel free to respond but I won't be answering...but then again for some that is basically just a green light for people to get in a last word...and I know how people love to have the last word.*)

 

[SajuukKhar]

That's just plain not true. Augmented flame is just a different amount of damage, ecactly what you're dismissing from Oblivion. Either say hi to all these guys:

Vanilla game spells did not encompass all of those damage levels, and the vast majority of those level could only be made via spell making, which is an entirely different system in itself.

I was discussing pure vanilla spells in Oblivion, to vanilla spells in Skyrim.

Whilst a number of things get blown out of proportion on those sorts of sites, RPG mechanics are not just 'Old outdated systems that only existed because technological limitations'. For one, even in the early days of gaming we had doom and its ilk. Games where you were in first person and fighting enemies. Were they as immersive as modern equivalents? No, but if you wanted to make a game about fighting dragons and things with your own skills it was possible.
You actually hit the reason a lot of people like these systems right on the head in your last paragraph. What happens isn't up to their ability, but based on their characters ability. If you don't want to have to have fast reflexes to do well at the game, or want to have to spam buttons to get anything done, the old style RPG concept is more for you. You don't have to do all the fighting, you don't have to be pro at killing dragons, you just have to design and lead someone who is. Designing all the stats and such to allow your character to do this is part of the fun. Whilst it may not be to your taste, its hardly a worse, out of date game mechanic because of such.
Its like saying manual cars are old and out of date, and should stop being made because we have automatics now. Sure, that's your taste and opinion, but others have their reasons for preferring the other side.

Doom however could not support an open-world RPG like Skyrim successfully without playing like crap, and looking like crap.

Doom didn't even have directional targeting, your gun was always in a locked position, and couldn't be moved up or down.

I really don't see how people can enjoy a game that isn't played by them but played by a proxy created by them. That's like making a clone of yourself to watch a movie, and then watching him watch the movie. Why not just watch the movie yourself?

Or like making a clone of yourself to read a book for you, whilst all you do is puppet his arms to make him turn the pages, and move his head up and down so he reads all the lines on the page. Why not just read the book yourself?

D&D style RPGs lack player involvement in most of the game's systems, and consist mainly of making a proxy, then watching the computer control most of your proxies actions against NPCs while you sit there and watch it throw randomly generated numbers at itself. Which pretty much defeats the entire purposes of it being a game.

 

[beastro]

I just think that Bethesda kind of... always do some things worse than what they had before.
I can't remember if i played morrowind or oblivion first. I played skyrim soon after it came out. I played daggerfall after i did 95% of skyrim. I couldn't get into daggerfall. you're welcome to skip parts.

Daggerfall to Morrowind went along with the dumbing down of computers games that took place at the beginning of the last decade.

Oblivion to Skyrim and beyond is thanks to TES game snow being ported console games and the trend of adding The Sims type minigames and features to games.

I could be part way through a ruins, see my next level approaching, and have to stop everything, head back to town, and start the whole spamming cantrips or falling from buildings routine so that I wouldn't lose a few stat points. This was not immersive.

Then why did you do it?

It's unnecessary beyond getting max stats for sake of max stats.

I'm a freak when it comes to preparing for new games thanks to growing up on Final Fantasy and other games where if you missed out on a lot you couldn't get back to if you didn't know about before hand. Reading up on Morrowind ages back I nodded thinking it was REALLY important to squeeze every stat out... until I played it and after the initially challenge found my guy dominating on max difficulty regardless.

Thanks to that I forgot that BS and when Oblivion came around I played it at my own pace and focused entirely on being a sneaky assassin with no magic use (Always loved Atronach sign and never found the lack of mana use from no mana regen a problem).

There are less weapons in Skyrim because you can do MORE with them then in past game.

it destroys the sense of progression in gear.

Reminds me of playing the Neverwinter Nights single player story and only getting upgraded gear and weapons pretty much once per chapter with the rest of the game just being a tedious, uninteresting slaughter fest.

That's not to say that previous TES games were good about gear, but they certainly were better than Skyrim.

Also in Dragon Age: Origins, mages were still able to feel powerfull and feel more powerfull at higher levels and this felt like true arcane force and you actually compared yourself favorably to that warrior guy over there. While in Skyrim
you somehow feel weaker as the game progresses compared to that warrior guy over there. Spell Creation could fix this because you could create spells equal to the warriors damage or even greater than if you want to go that way. Spell making gives you freedom that the mage lacks, well he atleast lacks freedom in my opinion, however it would still be more freedom.

TES is a welcome change of pace since most RPGs have magic users being the OP classes.

You you ever played Everquest in it's Golden Age you'd know how much of a pain in the as it was to play a melee or hybrid in a game where casters dominated every aspect of the game besides the ability to tank raid mobs.

Casters are also, imo, boring. I tried playing them in TES and I find it extremely unengaging just like EQ casters beyond a handful of classes with a lot of flexibility like Necromancers. It's thanks to that game that I go out of my way to play melee classes now, and using Dragon Age Origins as an example, the only reason why I even touched casters in it at all is because the game provides the Arcane Warrior build where I can be a hybrid.

 

[Jezzascmezza]

That's what happens when you get about 4 or more years between games in a series- fairly substantial changes are made in each one.
I don't know if it's nostalgia that makes people feel so strongly for the older games in the series though?

 

[beastro]

That's what happens when you get about 4 or more years between games in a series- fairly substantial changes are made in each one.
I don't know if it's nostalgia that makes people feel so strongly for the older games in the series though?

Maybe that's the problem. The changes are too dramatic.

 

[SajuukKhar]

it destroys the sense of progression in gear.

Reminds me of playing the Neverwinter Nights single player story and only getting upgraded gear and weapons pretty much once per chapter with the rest of the game just being a tedious, uninteresting slaughter fest.

That's not to say that previous TES games were good about gear, but they certainly were better than Skyrim.

Actually, with Skyrim's smithing system, perk system, and enchanting system, you can pretty much make every armor as good as every other armor.

Gear should NOT be some
-Level 1 armor has 10 armor
-Level 2 armor has 20 armor
-Level 3 armor has 30 armor
and while Skyrim does follow a similar pattern in it's gear, it lets you break the pattern with smithing.

Gear should not be a progression system IMO, gear should be something you pick because you like it, which is what Skyrim moved to.

 

[Callate]

Every game has also been in some way, big or small, broken.

Daggerfall was a mess of patches, and even with them all in place it was quite possible (especially with the wall-climbing mechanic) to fall through a wall to your death.

That "cripple this, boost that" mechanic also, as I recall, made for some perverse combinations where you could give yourself extreme vulnerabilities to things you were racially immune to. It's great to have a diverse selection of options, less so when you can craft an "ideal build" that bends the rules around its little finger and gives them a whirl.

Likewise, Morrowind's magic crafting system. Permanent invisibility a few short item craftings away. And an economy so broken that a couple of secret characters who were essentially jokes were injected to buy items that no one else, anywhere, could possibly afford.

I like the Elder Scrolls games, and I can appreciate the frustration with attractive features seemingly being tossed by the wayside, but I understand that, for example, it's much easier to create an effectively scripted plot when the PC can't fly. I just wish, so much having been pruned back both to make the game more accessible to the masses and make the rules more predictable for world-crafting, that they would take the time to make a game that you didn't have to describe to your friends as, "Oh, it's a fantastic game, but..."

But if you go through this plot thread after this one, expect to have to use console commands to progress.
But if you put points into this skill path, consider them wasted.
But this particular, obvious plot thread was never actually completed by the designers.
But this NPC may go wandering off and leave you unable to complete your mission.
But this seemingly Earth-shattering event doesn't really amount to diddly-squat.
But you'll spend hours doing quests for people you wouldn't cross the street to put out if they were on fire in real life.
But you'll end up doing inane things to level up skills you never use during actual quests.

 

[beastro]

Gear should not be a progression system IMO, gear should be something you pick because you like it, which is what Skyrim moved to.

Sorry, but chain mail is inferior to plate armour and no amount of modification will change that fact.

Different types of armour should be better or worse than others, it shouldn't even just have armour as a modifier but have more varied stats with different benefits and trade offs. Darkfall had a good system where more powerful kinds of metal armour provided better physical protection, but increased your weakness to lightning based spells for example.

Really. Back in my days playing EQ MMOs were mocked for being digital barbie doll games where you dress you character out, but what you prefer in games is the very essence of that fact. You're interested in only the aesthetics of the armour, not how powerful and hard to obtain the gear actually is.

You IMO is very much yours and I've never heard anyone else prefer a system that trivializes gear progression in a game of any kind.

You should feel the sense of elation when you find a rare, powerful piece of armour or weapon that adds massively to your players ability, make them feel like they have real value, not just have you eye it to see if it looks cool to wear or not. You cannot have that is there's barely any gear to get because the game starts to feel more like a linear, Zelda type game where pieces of gear of archtypes that add unique abilities and are not one piece of the gestalt that adds to built up your characters power.

Few things in games feel better than filling out your characters gear slots in a game and seeing the stats add up and allow you to carry out the combat strategy you've formed for your character from the beginning and it's why dungeon crawlers are so beloved.

 

[Jfswift]

Hmm my experiences do far.

Morrowind. Cool visuals.. Now where was I supposed to go?
Oblivion. Really cool visuals. Horrible stat leveling system and enemy scaling was ridiculous. This game punished you if wrecked your build.
Skyrim. Combat feels more actiony and on par with Fallout with visceral details like beheading. Leveling system was very flexible and seamless, just letting you play and have fun. What I didn't care for was the game sort of herding you along. I also miss the atmosphere of Oblivion's mages guild. That place was neat (the facility near white gold tower).

 

[Wolfhowl the shadow lurker]

If something is easyer to use that means its dumbed down? somehow thats what most people think, morrwind was hardcore yeah but that does not mean it was great or the best of the them i love the elder scrolls and i do think they have been geting better however a lot of people seem to be eager to shit on them and say that if it is easy to use and get into thats awful! How dare people want to not fuck around for hours trying to kill one thing or know were the hell they should be going for this quest

 

[SajuukKhar]

Really. Back in my days playing EQ MMOs were mocked for being digital barbie doll games where you dress you character out, but what you prefer in games is the very essence of that fact. You're interested in only the aesthetics of the armour, not how powerful and hard to obtain the gear actually is.

You IMO is very much yours and I've never heard anyone else prefer a system that trivializes gear progression in a game of any kind.

I do care about an armor's stats, which is why I would never use Elven armor if I couldn't smith it to 567 armor, the armor cap. However, since I can, via the game's armor smithing system, I find it nice that my armor is both as strong as it can be, and the armor design I like most.

I have to ask how does it trivialize gear progression? gear profession exists, and using the same smithing techniques you used on your elven armor, on glass armor, would get the glass armor to max, but still above elven armor in total damage protection.

And if you think my view is weird, you have clearly never been to the Elder scrolls forums, people love finding ways to get armors to the max damage resistance cap so they an wear whatever design that they want.

People often wear low quality armor, on purpose, because they like the deisgn more, and I couldn't image the outrage of Bethesda made all forms of lower armor useless in order to keep some archaic and rigid linear gear progression system.

 

[beastro]

I have to ask how does it trivialize gear progression? gear profession exists, and using the same smithing techniques you used on your elven armor, on glass armor, would get the glass armor to max, but still above elven armor in total damage protection.

As I said, gear progression have never been a strong suit of TES games and the stats on items has always been very minimal compared to other games. It's along with everything else that minimal in TES games is why I mod them heavily to fill in that missing piece of the game as is a big thing in most major overhauls of the previous games (and the latter FO games).

And if you think my view is weird, you have clearly never been to the Elder scrolls forums, people love finding ways to get armors to the max damage resistance cap so they an wear whatever design that they want.

If people want certain armour to be good then they can actively edit it to match the progression of their gear as they progress like I do with custom armour in TES and FO games.

Novel ways to circumvent the progression are fine, but it shouldn't be the major factor in a game.

To put it in EQ terms, you could try to use Velious armour and its unique textures for as long as you possibly could, but they should eventually give way to you adopting Luclin gear and accepting its look.

If people don't like that, then the best MMO equivalent is in LOTRO where you have your gear that gives you stats and then can overlay aesthetic gear that affects your looks without interrupting the progression of the stat gear. The nearest one can get with that in a game like Skyrim is what I mentioned before, editing the armour to match the best of what you've found in the game so far.

If something is easyer to use that means its dumbed down?

Inconvenient does not always mean bad as well. As I said before, I'm starting to think that the big problem with TES games is that things change too much between installments, or at least, not the right things, but that comes down to perspective.

 

[MHR]

You lose stuff and you get stuff.

I put up with some nitpicky garbage because everything else is so good. I couldn't give a shit about quests being repetitive and predictable when it's the dungeons they send you to that are so impressive.

I don't care there are less spells. It was always always a pain dealing with 100 spells in oblivion, many of which were useless, and trying to get a more convenient spell required you to craft it yourself after a lengthy and tedious "application" process to the university.

The UI is streamlined and dumbed-down, but on the upside they're STREAMLINED and look good. Oblivion's menus were fugly and wore out their welcome quickly.

I dont care they trimmed the fat on old mechanics, because many old mechanics were stupid. Acrobatics was useless. Athletics as a core skill was also stupid. I thank the Nine they got rid of that fiddly garbage and focused more on polishing real actual interesting skills.

I dont care that Skyrim's perk leveling system is weird because it's a MAJOR improvement over Oblivion's retarded leveling system where leveling usually worked AGAINST you and you could gimp yourself if you did it wrong. Seriously, screw that.

I don't care that smithing and enchanting easily breaks the game, because I refuse to do smithing and enchanting to break my own game.

So go ahead and pick more knits. I haven't played Morrowind, but Skyrim is an overall superior game to Oblivion with both being games I enjoy very much. I find the idea silly that Bethesda games are getting worse when they're actually getting better.

 

[Syzygy23]

This was a fabulous post and you are a fabulous person.

Might be pushing it with the one spell = fifteen spells bit but otherwise can't agree more.

One of the biggest fallacies I see with gaming in general is people trying to say "well there were 10 weapons types in X games, but only 5 in this one, so its dumbed down/simplified", when in reality, those 5 weapons in the newer game, do more mechanically then the 10 weapons from past games did.

I have to disagree with you here.

How many iterations of "Swing melee weapon" and "Shoot arrow/bolt" can there possibly BE?

You either swing the sword or you don't. You can block with it if you want, but the game gives you shields that are superior.

 

[NeutralDrow]

This was a fabulous post and you are a fabulous person.

Might be pushing it with the one spell = fifteen spells bit but otherwise can't agree more.

One of the biggest fallacies I see with gaming in general is people trying to say "well there were 10 weapons types in X games, but only 5 in this one, so its dumbed down/simplified", when in reality, those 5 weapons in the newer game, do more mechanically then the 10 weapons from past games did.

I have to disagree with you here.

How many iterations of "Swing melee weapon" and "Shoot arrow/bolt" can there possibly BE?

Well, there's "swing melee weapon at seven different speeds" (dagger, sword, axe, mace, greatsword, greataxe, hammer), affecting DPS versus alpha damage, plus a question of whether a weapon can do extra damage more often (through plain damage or DoT) or do more damage than normal to armored opponents, not to mention perks that can add "does insane extra damage from sneak attack" or "added critical effects" (though I think that applies to all weapons but daggers).

Just because the ultimate action is the same ("press button to swing weapon") doesn't mean the effect is always the same That's like reducing the entire Destruction line of spells to "throw magic damage thing" (after all, what's the difference between an Apprentice flame and a Master flame but the size of the fire?).

I don't know if bows and crossbows have separate mechanics yet, though.

You either swing the sword or you don't. You can block with it if you want, but the game gives you shields that are superior.

Actually, my favorite character currently favors a single knife for a fighting style. Partly for the 30x sneak damage, but also because half the Block perks apply to any type of blocking implement, including the Matrix dodge and powerbashing perks. Even if I screw up stealth, I can still win fights by knocking people off balance and taking advantage of the dagger's incredible attack speed.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I have to disagree with you here.

How many iterations of "Swing melee weapon" and "Shoot arrow/bolt" can there possibly BE?

You either swing the sword or you don't. You can block with it if you want, but the game gives you shields that are superior.

I was talking about how in Morrowind every single melee weapon was "press attack button, do damage". Axes, Maces, and Swords were all mechanically the exact same because none of them did anything special, they were all essentially the same melee weapon, just with a different damage number, and a different skin.

In Skyrim however, they gave axes the ability to cause bleed, maces the ability to ignore armor, and swords do bonus critical damage. There's a real mechanical difference to the weapon types in Skyrim, because weapon types actually DO something unique.

It is still the same "press attack button, do damage" as Morrowind, but this time its now "press attack button, do damage, and do bleed damage", or "press attack button, do damage, and do armor ignoring damage", or "press attack button, do damage, and do more critical damage"

Skyrim's weapons are more diverse, because picking between them actually gives you some effect the other weapons don't, whereas Morrowind's melee weapons were all essentially the same.

If people want certain armour to be good then they can actively edit it to match the progression of their gear as they progress like I do with custom armour in TES and FO games.

Novel ways to circumvent the progression are fine, but it shouldn't be the major factor in a game.

To put it in EQ terms, you could try to use Velious armour and its unique textures for as long as you possibly could, but they should eventually give way to you adopting Luclin gear and accepting its look.

That's a silly idea because it removes the entire concept of player choice, and forces everyone down the same linear armor progression.

Every high level character would be the same, with the same armor, and would lack any form of individuality. Choice, and uniqueness > armor tier systems.

If people don't like that, then the best MMO equivalent is in LOTRO where you have your gear that gives you stats and then can overlay aesthetic gear that affects your looks without interrupting the progression of the stat gear. The nearest one can get with that in a game like Skyrim is what I mentioned before, editing the armour to match the best of what you've found in the game so far.

Or how about people just smith their armor to higher levels? Thus giving them the same stats as higher tier armor, but the looks of lower tier armor.