Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim: Dragonborn DLC files found in latest patch

[Soviet Heavy]

Where is that from in the lore? Not saying you're wrong but that seems hard to believe considering the blood feud between the Nords and the Dunmer.

It was mentioned in the two Elder scrolls books, The Infernal City and Lord of Souls.

What recipe is that? most of the recipes I see are just minor boosts to stamina that simultaneously slow down your stamina regen, or healing items that do about a tenth of what a health potion does.

Vegetable Soup and Venison Stew have a "Restore Stamina 1 pt for 720 secs" which enables you to do near constant power attacks since all it takes is one stamina to do a power attack.

Hmmm. I hope they add more recipes then. One of my favorite things about Honest Hearts in New Vegas was how useful cooking and survival became. The benefits they offered to your special or to your health regen and damage were awesome substitutes for stimpacks.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Hmmm. I hope they add more recipes then. One of my favorite things about Honest Hearts in New Vegas was how useful cooking and survival became. The benefits they offered to your special or to your health regen and damage were awesome substitutes for stimpacks.

Most food items only had a very menial health increase in New vegas

stuff like
+2 Hit Points per second for 18s
+2 Hit Points per second for 10s
food really wasn't a good substitute for stimpacks

Which is about the same amount of health most food items in Skyrim give.

 

[Zenn3k]

This DLC gonna contain actual RPG elements? Cause that is certainly lacking in the original game... :/

 

[SajuukKhar]

This DLC gonna contain actual RPG elements? Cause that is certainly lacking in the original game... :/

Really, I find the whole
-Raising skills
-Leveling up
-Picking between raising health, magicka, and stamina
-Getting a perk point to spend on a perk of your choosing
-Picking between different endings to quests
-Joining/not joining various guilds
to be very RPGish.

 

[L0dest0ne]

I'm glad they're adding more armor and weapons in the game. One of the things I felt was lacking was that sense of "Ooh that next armor piece could be right around the corner!" I know its not Diablo, but combat gets kind of stale once you realize that cool new shit probably won't drop and the money you get from it can't purchase anything of use.
Al I hope for is that this won't be a mostly item-based DLC, but a true, shivering isles-type expansion pack.

 

[Zenn3k]

This DLC gonna contain actual RPG elements? Cause that is certainly lacking in the original game... :/

Really, I find the whole
-Raising skills
-Leveling up
-Picking between raising health, magicka, and stamina
-Getting a perk point to spend on a perk of your choosing
-Picking between different endings to quests
-Joining/not joining various guilds
to be very RPGish.

I find the whole
-Not having any interesting choices outside of who wins a civil war. I don't count saying "yes I will join your guild" or "no, you die" that interesting of a choice. Where are the interesting moral choices? Having some evil god having me kill somebody isn't an interesting moral choice, its an obvious yes/no choice, do it, or don't.
-Never using speech craft...ever, outside of selling junk to vendors.
-Many perks are boring or totally pointless (entire speech craft tree, entire lockpicking tree) the perks that ARE useful are generic and still boring (+20% damage, half magicka cost for X, etc)
-Roughly 50% of the world cannot die from direct player action because they are marked "essential" to some random fetch quest.
-Many quests involving little more than clear out dungeon number 101, which now has only 3 enemies in it, because you were just there 10 minutes ago, those quests also have no point to them. OR, fetch quests. In fact, I cannot think of even 1 quest that can be solved in any other way other than "kill everyone, or bring me something", and that includes the entire "Main" quest of the game.
to be very far removed from a real RPG.

Skyrim is like a beginner RPG. Its an RPG for people who never played one before. Its kinda like Call of Duty, with swords/bows/fireballs and merchants who buy your stuff you can spend 10,000 gold on a house you won't use.

RPGs are suppose to have certain levels of limitations on the player that mold their playstyle and make it unique, as well as having interesting plot (Skyrim's story is okay, not great, but okay) that includes interesting moral choices that make you go "Oh man, I wonder how that would have ended if I picked option B/C/D (etc) instead of option A?!" Skyrim does not have that, anywhere, except the Civil War, and the difference is fairly meaningless within the game. It has no limits, you can take every skill to 100 with 1 character. The only limitation are perks, but as stated, almost ALL of them are INCREDIBLY boring and bland.

Skyrim has no reply value, every quest you do with your first character, will end up with the same results on another. You can become the leader of every guild on your first character...so whats left to do another character? NOT becoming the leader(s)? Yawn.

 

[SajuukKhar]

-Not having any interesting choices outside of who wins a civil war. I don't count saying "yes I will join your guild" or "no, you die" that interesting of a choice. Where are the interesting moral choices? Having some evil god having me kill somebody isn't an interesting moral choice, its an obvious yes/no choice, do it, or don't.

-In My Time Of Need at the end you get to choose between helping Saadia, a redguard woman claiming that the Thalmor sent Alik'r to hunt her down, or Kematu, an Alik'r warrior who claims that Saadia sold her city out to The Thalmor, and that the Redguard are seeking her for justice. Which one is telling the truth?

-Or Paarthurnax, do you follow the blades orders to kill him, or do you let one of the greatest mass murders in history go just because he says spending thousands of years on top of a mountain made him better?

-Never using speech craft...ever, outside of selling junk to vendors.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Bribe#Persuasion_Options
Except in the many instances where your speechcraft skill influences the Bribe, Intimidate, and Persuade options, which many quests have. There are about 90 different instances were one can use speech checks throughout the game.

-Many perks are boring or totally pointless (entire speech craft tree, entire lockpicking tree) the perks that ARE useful are generic and still boring (+20% damage, half magicka cost for X, etc)

The speechcraft tree allows for players to bribe guards to ignore crimes, something non-Theives Guild members could use. Furthermore, it not only raises the amount of cash merchants have, something that is very much needed when selling higher level items such as Daedric or glass armor, but it allows you to invest in most shops further raising their gold.

The lockpikcing tree has perks that makes pick unbreakable, which is a nice thing to have, and its treasure perk gives you a high chance of getting Draonbone/scale armor from dungeon chests, so that people who don't use smithing have a chance of getting it.

-Roughly 50% of the world cannot die from direct player action because they are marked "essential" to some random fetch quest.

Most NPCs who are essential because of quests become unessential after completing their quests, so you can kill them then.

This was done because of the random Vampire and Dragon attacks, and had they not been essential you would be here talking about how annoying it is NPCs die all the time.

-Many quests involving little more than clear out dungeon number 101, which now has only 3 enemies in it, because you were just there 10 minutes ago, those quests also have no point to them. OR, fetch quests. In fact, I cannot think of even 1 quest that can be solved in any other way other than "kill everyone, or bring me something", and that includes the entire "Main" quest of the game.

The Daedric lord Sanguine's quest can be completed without killing anything, or bringing anything to anyone by using persuasion speech checks to get past all the NPCs who ask you to bring them stuff.

As can the The In My Time Of Need, and Parthy quest. Just to name three off the top of my head.

RPGs are suppose to have certain levels of limitations on the player that mold their playstyle and make it unique, as well as having interesting plot (Skyrim's story is okay, not great, but okay) that includes interesting moral choices that make you go "Oh man, I wonder how that would have ended if I picked option B/C/D (etc) instead of option A?!" Skyrim does not have that, anywhere, except the Civil War, and the difference is fairly meaningless within the game. It has no limits, you can take every skill to 100 with 1 character. The only limitation are perks, but as stated, almost ALL of them are INCREDIBLY boring and bland.

Skyrim has no reply value, every quest you do with your first character, will end up with the same results on another. You can become the leader of every guild on your first character...so whats left to do another character? NOT becoming the leader(s)? Yawn.

Its called roleplaying, the only thing making playing more then one character boring is you.

Yes you CAN become the leader of every guild with one guy, as you should, but why would you?

Also you CAN reach 100 in all skills, but then again, if your playing a warrior character, why would you raise your magic and light armor skills?

From what I gather from what you said is "I need games to limit be because I have no self-restraint", which is a fault of your own.

 

[Matheus Moreira]

I find the whole
-Not having any interesting choices outside of who wins a civil war. I don't count saying "yes I will join your guild" or "no, you die" that interesting of a choice. Where are the interesting moral choices? Having some evil god having me kill somebody isn't an interesting moral choice, its an obvious yes/no choice, do it, or don't.
-Never using speech craft...ever, outside of selling junk to vendors.
-Many perks are boring or totally pointless (entire speech craft tree, entire lockpicking tree) the perks that ARE useful are generic and still boring (+20% damage, half magicka cost for X, etc)
-Roughly 50% of the world cannot die from direct player action because they are marked "essential" to some random fetch quest.
-Many quests involving little more than clear out dungeon number 101, which now has only 3 enemies in it, because you were just there 10 minutes ago, those quests also have no point to them. OR, fetch quests. In fact, I cannot think of even 1 quest that can be solved in any other way other than "kill everyone, or bring me something", and that includes the entire "Main" quest of the game.
to be very far removed from a real RPG.

Skyrim is like a beginner RPG. Its an RPG for people who never played one before. Its kinda like Call of Duty, with swords/bows/fireballs and merchants who buy your stuff you can spend 10,000 gold on a house you won't use.

RPGs are suppose to have certain levels of limitations on the player that mold their playstyle and make it unique, as well as having interesting plot (Skyrim's story is okay, not great, but okay) that includes interesting moral choices that make you go "Oh man, I wonder how that would have ended if I picked option B/C/D (etc) instead of option A?!" Skyrim does not have that, anywhere, except the Civil War, and the difference is fairly meaningless within the game. It has no limits, you can take every skill to 100 with 1 character. The only limitation are perks, but as stated, almost ALL of them are INCREDIBLY boring and bland.

Skyrim has no reply value, every quest you do with your first character, will end up with the same results on another. You can become the leader of every guild on your first character...so whats left to do another character? NOT becoming the leader(s)? Yawn.

I agree 90% with you. The fact that many of the choices you make doesn't prevent you to do something completely different (i can be in the warrior's guild, the thief's guild, the assassin's guild etc; I can have, as godfather, all of the very different deities etc) is the most non-RPG element of Skyrim, in my opinion. Also, the dialogues are so shallow and the npcs have a lack of personality so big that it seems I'm talking with the same person many times. On top of that, the side quests are way too repetitive, I wish they had spent more time on few interesting quests than lots of killing/retrieving ones.

Skyrim has many merits and I like it a lot, but wasn't it by its hugeness, it would be a mediocre RPG. Baldur's Gate, for example, did a lot more with a lot less. I try to compensate the flaws with mods, but it isn't enough. I hope the dlcs and patches help changing that feeling of lackiness.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I agree 90% with you. The fact that many of the choices you make doesn't prevent you to do something completely different (i can be in the warrior's guild, the thief's guild, the assassin's guild etc; I can have, as godfather, all of the very different deities etc) is the most non-RPG element of Skyrim, in my opinion. Also, the dialogues are so shallow and the npcs have a lack of personality so big that it seems I'm talking with the same person many times. On top of that, the side quests are way too repetitive, I wish they had spent more time on few interesting quests than lots of killing/retrieving ones.

Skyrim has many merits and I like it a lot, but wasn't it by its hugeness, it would be a mediocre RPG. Baldur's Gate, for example, did a lot more with a lot less. I try to compensate the flaws with mods, but it isn't enough. I hope the dlcs and patches help changing that feeling of lackiness.

There is quite literally zero reason to not be able to join all the guilds, and become champion of all the Daedric lords. It literally cannot be explained, or justified, in either lore or gameplay. If you don't want to become champions of all the Daedra then don't, and if you don't want to join all the guilds, then don't.

Why people feel the need to deny people, who do want to do everything on one guy, the ability to do so, just because they don't want to, when the choice of doing everything is entirely up to them, is beyond me.

It is as nonsensical as wanting to remove fast travel because "it makes the game to easy when you can teleport everywhere". My only response is "then don't use it, no one is making you".

Elder Scrolls replayability is what you make of it, why people seemingly need the developers to hold their hand and impose artificial, and entirely pointless, restrictions, when one can just impose restrictions on themselves, is beyond me.

Its not Bethesda's job to tell you "you cant join this guild because you joined the other one", just as it isn't your parent's job to wipe your ass when your 20, its your own.

 

[Sightless Wisdom]

More Elder Scrolls DLC is always good in my books. Hopefully this one is at least as big as Shivering Isles(assuming it is on Soltstheim).

 

[Sangreal Gothcraft]

I do hope it is Something A lot more Varied and bigger to spark my interest in Skyrim, I really lost Interest in the Game, Yeah Dawnguard was alright but it was not Shivering Isle.

 

[AntiChri5]

You know, i have a dream. That one day, i will be able to enter a thread about Skyrim DLC and no one will be talkig about Shivering Isles.

Yeah, folks, it was good. Get over it already.

As for this info, im not sure whether i am excited or not. I mean, i want more exploration of the whole Dragonborn thing, but isn't that what the main game was for?

 

[Zenn3k]

-In My Time Of Need at the end you get to choose between helping Saadia, a redguard woman claiming that the Thalmor sent Alik'r to hunt her down, or Kematu, an Alik'r warrior who claims that Saadia sold her city out to The Thalmor, and that the Redguard are seeking her for justice. Which one is telling the truth?

-Or Paarthurnax, do you follow the blades orders to kill him, or do you let one of the greatest mass murders in history go just because he says spending thousands of years on top of a mountain made him better?

- Do either of these choices matter? I recall doing this quest. The quest told me to go to the guards, the guards told me to bring the girl...so I got her, then she died. Those guys never showed up again. I cared nothing about who was telling the truth because I just met them not 5 minutes before. I did what the game told me to do. Now, if I learned something vital about this women, something that meant she was important, something that made me THINK about the choice to off her or not, I might give this one to you, but that never came up. As well, in both options, nothing meaningful happens. If I save her, she doesn't reward me with some unique item or quest line...nor to the men hunting her, they just walk away. Illusion of choice, both roads lead to dead ends, that is not meaningful at all.

- Hmm, maybe you did find another one, I never got this far, got bored before I finished the game so I forgot this one even existed. This one I'll actually count, because siding with the Blades actually DOES change the game slightly. So we're up to 2 actual choices.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Bribe#Persuasion_Options
Except in the many instances where your speechcraft skill influences the Bribe, Intimidate, and Persuade options, which many quests have. There are about 90 different instances were one can use speech checks throughout the game.

- Interesting, since I never saw even 1 of these appear in the game, outside of the pointless speech check to get into Riften. There are a lot more than I thought...however, reading over the list, I find most are pretty meaningless.

The speechcraft tree allows for players to bribe guards to ignore crimes, something non-Theives Guild members could use. Furthermore, it not only raises the amount of cash merchants have, something that is very much needed when selling higher level items such as Daedric or glass armor, but it allows you to invest in most shops further raising their gold.

The lockpikcing tree has perks that makes pick unbreakable, which is a nice thing to have, and its treasure perk gives you a high chance of getting Draonbone/scale armor from dungeon chests, so that people who don't use smithing have a chance of getting it.

Bribing guards to ignore crimes is pointless, you are horse-led to the Thieves Guild and as mentioned before, you can join everyone...so you WILL likely be a member of this and do these quests. Investing in merchants is pointless as well. Just fast travel to every major city.

Making picks unbreakable is pointless, even master locks can be done with half the needed skill, and breaking picks is one of the best ways to improve the skill. I'd rather use crafting to make what I want, not like there is a shortage of dragon bones around the world. I think my character has roughly 40 in his chest at home. Not to mention what it takes to get that high in lockpicking in the first place you have to waste tons of perks.
Novice locks are much easier to pick - waste
Apprentice locks are much easier to pick - waste
Able to pick locks without being noticed - waste (being hidden is enough)
Automatically gives you a copy of a picked lock's key if it has one - waste, why do I need a key to a lock thats now open??
Adept locks are much easier to pick - waste
Find more gold in chests - waste
50% greater chance of finding special treasure - first interesting perk in the tree
Expert locks are much easier to pick - mostly a waste, especially with skill as high as needed to get this
Pick starts close to the lock opening position - makes doing an easy task...easier? waste
Lockpicks never break - cause there is suddenly a shortage of lockpicks?!?!
Master locks are much easier to pick - another waste.

So, 1 useful or interesting perk in the entire tree. So very well designed.

You still didn't address all the bland and boring perks that exist that are useful. Such as +20% damage with bows/swords/axes, half magicka, etc.

Most NPCs who are essential because of quests become unessential after completing their quests, so you can kill them then.

This was done because of the random Vampire and Dragon attacks, and had they not been essential you would be here talking about how annoying it is NPCs die all the time.

I'd rather just fail the quest as a result of their death. Making up my OWN story...stalking an NPC, sneaking into his house at night and being unable to kill him because he has a random fetch quest that I could honestly care less about. Bad design. I don't wanna do his quest first, I don't care about his quest, I want his head on a plate.

Random attack reason is not a legit explanation. The game can tell the difference between an NPC kill and a player kill (see: Accidentally killing Lydia with a Fireball), no reason to prevent me from killing whoever I want, especially when its something EXPECTED in these kind of open world games.

The Daedric lord Sanguine's quest can be completed without killing anything, or bringing anything to anyone by using persuasion speech checks to get past all the NPCs who ask you to bring them stuff.

As can the The In My Time Of Need, and Parthy quest. Just to name three off the top of my head.

Again, game didn't even tell me about these choices. I guess my speech wasn't high enough...and i never bothered to level it because the game never showed me anywhere it could be useful. You have to level your speech, unknowingly BEFORE doing these quests (or spoil them) or you miss out and never even know about it. More bad design. FO:NV (45/65) choices showing you they exist is a much better way to inform the player...ya know, instead of NOT informing the player.

Its called roleplaying, the only thing making playing more then one character boring is you.

Yes you CAN become the leader of every guild with one guy, as you should, but why would you?

Also you CAN reach 100 in all skills, but then again, if your playing a warrior character, why would you raise your magic and light armor skills?

From what I gather from what you said is "I need games to limit be because I have no self-restraint", which is a fault of your own.

Roleplaying without a properly designed world sucks. There is nothing to roleplay. Oh, I know, I'll be a evil murderer...oops, nope, can't do that, not unless I bring this lady 10 bear pelts first, then after I help her out...can I finally kill her in her sleep. Oh, I know, I'll be a noble good guy...oh wait, thats what the game is wants from me anyway. Oh, I know, I'll be an Orc Warrior who only uses a sword and shield...until I need to heal, during combat...then I'm a mage/alchemist, or until I need to progress the plot...then I'm apparently the Deen of Magicka High School.

As I should, but why would I? These are two opposing comments you just made. Of COURSE you would, why wouldn't you?! There is no reason not to join everyone. Its like having a chest at the end of the dungeon that has a sign above it: "Loot me, or don't loot me...its your choice". You loot, and find yourself with loot, or you don't...and simply don't get the loot.

Self-restraint? Seriously? Perhaps I should play with 1 hand tied behind my back as well? If I have to force myself not to use things directly in front of my face, they shouldn't be directly in front of my face.

I have no problems trying to impose some rules on myself to make the gameplay more interesting, I've done it before, but that usually happens in my 10th time through the game. Not my 2nd...or my 1st.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Eh, I'll jump in on the over-openness of the open world that is Skyrim, and that's really what I think it is: just a little *too* open.

If I have no magical talent, no one in their right mind should let me become the Archmage. The Companions shouldn't have much regard for me if I fight all my battles from the back line with magic (which they repeatedly say they think is unbefitting a warrior to use).

I think the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood marry well as dual membership societies and neither one of them really interferes with becoming the Archmage if I fancy to, but I do think that the Companions would object to both of those guilds of criminals and consider any participation therein a black mark on their honor by association.

There should be a little bit of consequence and a better uptake by the NPCs of who I am affiliated with when I'm joining these things. Not so much an issue of lack of self control on my part (because I've played it the way I think it should be and restrained myself just fine in a roleplaying mode), but the fact that the game shows no appreciation of such obvious conflicts of interest is a missed opportunity to deepen immersion and enhance the feeling of realness in the game world.

I can see both sides of the arguments between players of different styles on the matter, but the way I see it is that it's something we can either choose to work around or choose to dislike about the game - it still amounts to a missed opportunity the way I construe things to make the game world richer and more real feeling that such consequences and checks and balances and reactions are absent.

 

[SajuukKhar]

If I save her, she doesn't reward me with some unique item or quest line...nor to the men hunting her, they just walk away. Illusion of choice, both roads lead to dead ends, that is not meaningful at all.

You mean like...... how all the endings of New Vegas all lead to equally shitty lives for the wasteland?

I'm sorry but 99% of choices in video games, be they from Bethesda, all the way to Obsidian, don't lead to meaningful ends, they just lead to different variations of the same level of shit.

- Interesting, since I never saw even 1 of these appear in the game, outside of the pointless speech check to get into Riften. There are a lot more than I thought...however, reading over the list, I find most are pretty meaningless.

Meaningless in what way? they all advance the plot of the quest, and each causes the NPC to say something related to how you delt with the situation. Intimidating the NPC causes them to be hostile in dialog later, while persuading them makes them more neutral or friendly.

Bribing guards to ignore crimes is pointless, you are horse-led to the Thieves Guild and as mentioned before, you can join everyone...so you WILL likely be a member of this and do these quests. Investing in merchants is pointless as well. Just fast travel to every major city.

Making picks unbreakable is pointless, even master locks can be done with half the needed skill, and breaking picks is one of the best ways to improve the skill. I'd rather use crafting to make what I want, not like there is a shortage of dragon bones around the world. I think my character has roughly 40 in his chest at home.

But you aren't forced to join the Thieves Guild, and ROLEPLAYERS, you know, people who actually roleplay in RPGs, who don't join the Thieves Guild, would find that useful.

Many people don't use fast travel, and walking, or even fast raveling for that matter, to each city is pointless when you can just get a perk and not have to go to each city to sell your stuff.

Considering that making picks unbreakable requires you have 100 skill, the whole "breaking them improves the skill" argument is bunk, on top of that the skill is nice for people who don't want to deal with breaking picks at all.

I'd rather just fail the quest as a result of their death. Making up my OWN story...stalking an NPC, sneaking into his house at night and being unable to kill him because he has a random fetch quest that I could honestly care less about. Bad design. I don't wanna do his quest first, I don't care about his quest, I want his head on a plate.

Random attack reason is not a legit explanation. The game can tell the difference between an NPC kill and a player kill (see: Accidentally killing Lydia with a Fireball), no reason to prevent me from killing whoever I want, especially when its something EXPECTED in these kind of open world games.

You are in the minority in that opinion then, most people prefer that NPcs stay alive, because most people don't like getting denied content because a NPC died.

Making all the NPCs protected like that has a chance of causing bugs, its only used on followers for a reason.

Again, game didn't even tell me about these choices. I guess my speech wasn't high enough...and i never bothered to level it because the game never showed me anywhere it could be useful. You have to level your speech, unknowingly BEFORE doing these quests (or spoil them) or you miss out and never even know about it. More bad design. FO:NV (45/65) choices showing you they exist is a much better way to inform the player...ya know, instead of NOT informing the player.

The game clearly labels
(Persuasion)
(Bribe)
(Intimidate)
in front of every choice that has a speech check, on top of that, the game is designed to allow players to retry speech checks they failed.

Failing a speech check causes the NPC to rebuff the player and leads back to the speech check dialog choice, at which point the player can leave the dialog, go level up their speech skill, or get +speech items, then return and try again.

Roleplaying without a properly designed world sucks. There is nothing to roleplay. Oh, I know, I'll be a evil murderer...oops, nope, can't do that, not unless I bring this lady 10 bear pelts first, then after I help her out...can I finally kill her in her sleep. Oh, I know, I'll be a noble good guy...oh wait, thats what the game is wants from me anyway. Oh, I know, I'll be an Orc Warrior who only uses a sword and shield...until I need to heal, during combat...then I'm a mage/alchemist, or until I need to progress the plot...then I'm apparently the Deen of Magicka High School.

As I should, but why would I? These are two opposing comments you just made. Of COURSE you would, why wouldn't you?! There is no reason not to join everyone. Its like having a chest at the end of the dungeon that has a sign above it: "Loot me, or don't loot me...its your choice". You loot, and find yourself with loot, or you don't...and simply don't get the loot.

Self-restraint? Seriously? Perhaps I should play with 1 hand tied behind my back as well? If I have to force myself not to use things directly in front of my face, they shouldn't be directly in front of my face.

I have no problems trying to impose some rules on myself to make the gameplay more interesting, I've done it before, but that usually happens in my 10th time through the game. Not my 2nd...or my 1st.

There are plenty of named NPCs in many towns you can just randomly kill if you play an evil murder.

Use potions that you buy from alchemists if you are playing a warrior, there is literally nothing that forces you to use the healing or alchemist skills.

The reason not to join everyone is because of something called roleplay, why would you join the mages college as a warrior? seriously, why? just because you can doesn't mean you should. If you picked a warrior character why are you choosing to play him as a mage?

Also, on my Nord character, I don't loot chests in Nodric burial tombs, because I roleplay a character who honors the Nord dead. Getting loot and not getting loot based on your choices is the point of making choices.

That's like saying "if you didn't want me to use a gun to shoot someone you shouldn't have put it in my face", all your doing is shifting all of your own personal responsibility onto other people and then blaming them for not babysitting you. Its childish.

I am sorry you need rules thrown in your face because your so unable to make some up for yourself, but that doesn't mean other people should be denied choices in how to play their character because of it.

If you don't like being leader of all Guilds then don't do it, no one should have to force you to do things for yourself.

 

[Zenn3k]

If I save her, she doesn't reward me with some unique item or quest line...nor to the men hunting her, they just walk away. Illusion of choice, both roads lead to dead ends, that is not meaningful at all.

You mean like...... how all the endings of New Vegas all lead to equally shitty lives for the wasteland?

I'm sorry but 99% of choices in video games, be they from Bethesda, all the way to Obsidian, don't lead to meaningful ends, they just lead to different variations of the same level of shit.

Except the situation above never leads to anything. Just quest complete, never to be spoken of again. If I kill all the Kings in Freeside, they are dead, the ending credits says, they are dead. Other NPCs mention that they are dead, the game world stays true to itself. Quests involving them and the NPC signing a truce, can't happen. If I kill random Redperson lady in the Inn during this quest...nobody mentions it, nobody cares, nothing changes in the plot. Thats a very stark contrast. If it doesn't matter to anybody in the game world, why should I care? BTW - You can make most everyone live a fairly good life at the end of New Vegas, but lets stick to Skyrim.

- Interesting, since I never saw even 1 of these appear in the game, outside of the pointless speech check to get into Riften. There are a lot more than I thought...however, reading over the list, I find most are pretty meaningless.

Meaningless in what way? they all advance the plot of the quest, and each causes the NPC to say something related to how you delt with the situation. Intimidating the NPC causes them to be hostile in dialog later, while persuading them makes them more neutral or friendly.

And those people being neutral/friendly/or hostile matters how? I just wait a couple days and everything is forgiven for forgotten. The advance the plot, but they don't CHANGE the plot, or the outcome. They are simply shortcuts. They are Obi-Wan Kenobi saying "You don't need to see my identification" and away you go. You aren't doing anything meaningful with those speech checks, outside of possibly skipping other content.

Bribing guards to ignore crimes is pointless, you are horse-led to the Thieves Guild and as mentioned before, you can join everyone...so you WILL likely be a member of this and do these quests. Investing in merchants is pointless as well. Just fast travel to every major city.

Making picks unbreakable is pointless, even master locks can be done with half the needed skill, and breaking picks is one of the best ways to improve the skill. I'd rather use crafting to make what I want, not like there is a shortage of dragon bones around the world. I think my character has roughly 40 in his chest at home.

But you aren't forced to join the Thieves Guild, and ROLEPLAYERS, you know, people who actually roleplay in RPGs, who don't join the Thieves Guild, would find that useful.

Many people don't use fast travel, and walking, or even fast raveling for that matter, to each city is pointless when you can just get a perk and not have to go to each city to sell your stuff.

Considering that making picks unbreakable requires you have 100 skill, the whole "breaking them improves the skill" argument is bunk, on top of that the skill is nice for people who don't want to deal with breaking picks at all.

Not being forced is NOT the same as not being dissuaded by logical choices. Do you not understand the difference? The world needs to be consistent and make sense within itself, Skyrim fails to do this.

You have to basically "waste" perks to get the ability in question, like you have to waste perks in lockpicking to get the special item bonus chance.

Yes, because lockpicks are so rare in Skyrim right? Or because it takes to many to open a lock right? So why do you need your lockpicks to never break at 100 skill? Are you that bad at the lockpicking mini-game? I managed a master lock, at 35 skill with 10 picks (with 90+ in my inventory), its not hard.

I'd rather just fail the quest as a result of their death. Making up my OWN story...stalking an NPC, sneaking into his house at night and being unable to kill him because he has a random fetch quest that I could honestly care less about. Bad design. I don't wanna do his quest first, I don't care about his quest, I want his head on a plate.

Random attack reason is not a legit explanation. The game can tell the difference between an NPC kill and a player kill (see: Accidentally killing Lydia with a Fireball), no reason to prevent me from killing whoever I want, especially when its something EXPECTED in these kind of open world games.

You are in the minority in that opinion then, most people prefer that NPcs stay alive, because most people don't like getting denied content because a NPC died.

Making all the NPCs protected like that has a chance of causing bugs, its only used on followers for a reason.

They can still be unkillable by Dragons/Vampires and allow the player to kill them. THAT is the point. There is nothing preventing that from happening, other than developer choice to stop you. MODs in the PC version (I have the console version) have proven this. Your argument is wrong. It was a bad developer choice, nothing more.

Again, game didn't even tell me about these choices. I guess my speech wasn't high enough...and i never bothered to level it because the game never showed me anywhere it could be useful. You have to level your speech, unknowingly BEFORE doing these quests (or spoil them) or you miss out and never even know about it. More bad design. FO:NV (45/65) choices showing you they exist is a much better way to inform the player...ya know, instead of NOT informing the player.

The game clearly labels
(Persuasion)
(Bribe)
(Intimidate)
in front of every choice that has a speech check, on top of that, the game is designed to allow players to retry speech checks they failed.

Failing a speech check causes the NPC to rebuff the player and leads back to the speech check dialog choice, at which point the player can leave the dialog, go level up their speech skill, or get +speech items, then return and try again.

Odd how I played 50 hours and the only one I EVER saw was the Riften gate one. How did I miss them if they were so visible? Was this changed in a patch or something?

Roleplaying without a properly designed world sucks. There is nothing to roleplay. Oh, I know, I'll be a evil murderer...oops, nope, can't do that, not unless I bring this lady 10 bear pelts first, then after I help her out...can I finally kill her in her sleep. Oh, I know, I'll be a noble good guy...oh wait, thats what the game is wants from me anyway. Oh, I know, I'll be an Orc Warrior who only uses a sword and shield...until I need to heal, during combat...then I'm a mage/alchemist, or until I need to progress the plot...then I'm apparently the Deen of Magicka High School.

As I should, but why would I? These are two opposing comments you just made. Of COURSE you would, why wouldn't you?! There is no reason not to join everyone. Its like having a chest at the end of the dungeon that has a sign above it: "Loot me, or don't loot me...its your choice". You loot, and find yourself with loot, or you don't...and simply don't get the loot.

Self-restraint? Seriously? Perhaps I should play with 1 hand tied behind my back as well? If I have to force myself not to use things directly in front of my face, they shouldn't be directly in front of my face.

I have no problems trying to impose some rules on myself to make the gameplay more interesting, I've done it before, but that usually happens in my 10th time through the game. Not my 2nd...or my 1st.

There are plenty of named NPCs in many towns you can just randomly kill if you play an evil murder.

Use potions that you buy from alchemists if you are playing a warrior, there is literally nothing that forces you to use the healing or alchemist skills.

The reason not to join everyone is because of something called roleplay, why would you join the mages college as a warrior? seriously, why? just because you can doesn't mean you should. If you picked a warrior character why are you choosing to play him as a mage?

Also, on my Nord character, I don't loot chests in Nodric burial tombs, because I roleplay a character who honors the Nord dead. Getting loot and not getting loot based on your choices is the point of making choices.

That's like saying "if you didn't want me to use a gun to shoot someone you shouldn't have put it in my face", all your doing is shifting all of your own personal responsibility onto other people and then blaming them for not babysitting you. Its childish.

Only takes 1 to break immersion.

You have to join the mages college to finish the main quest, its required in order to get the Elder Scroll.

Thats an interesting role play, what do you gain from that? Anything besides less gold and the self-knowledge that hundreds of unnamed undead guys still have their pretty things? Thats fairly original though, I'll credit you that. I just don't see much point in roleplaying something like that myself. When there are no options within the world, you have to make up rules like "I can't pick up that" to roleplay around, its pretty trite.

I'm not shifting anything. The point is simple. The world should have its own rules and be consistent within those rules that it establishes. Skyrim has no rules, maybe that makes it more open, but it also makes it incredibly shallow.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

snip

Make your mind up. Either your pro roleplaying or your not. You can't say 'I am sorry you need rules thrown in your face because your so unable to make some up for yourself, but that doesn't mean other people should be denied choices in how to play their character because of it.' and then say 'You are in the minority in that opinion then, most people prefer that NPcs stay alive, because most people don't like getting denied content because a NPC died.' Show some consistency...most people don't like being forced to do or not do things in games that they do or don't want to.

Also, you mention 'Making all the NPCs protected like that has a chance of causing bugs, its only used on followers for a reason.'...as if Skyrim isn't one of the worst games for bugs since Fallout New Vegas. I managed to find a major quest destroying bug within every faction storyline and 2 of them required me to act in a way i would otherwise have avoided. Roleplaying indeed

Lots of the perks within Skyrim are totally worthless. The entire merchant line of perks is just a way to speed up getting cash but serves no real purpose in a game with infinite access to infinite loot and very little of worth to purchase. The lockpicking skills have no use because with a little practice you can bypass any lock without anywhere near the skill you should need...also there is the unbreakable lockpick quest item you get that can bypass even advancing the skill at all. The stealth tree is ridiculously overpowered to the point that once you reach 100 nobody ever sees you, making combat pointlessly easy. Couple with that the fact you can level upto 100 in stealth before leaving the first room...it takes less than 30 minutes (for the record).

You managed to make it sound like everyone who plays RPGs are roleplayers and totally ignored that most gamers are powergamers and will do everything they can to overpower themselves. With the broken crafting system coupled with the broken skill up system you can make better than intended, game breaking items within 4 hours of starting a new game.

While it is obvious you love the game, at least acknowledge some of it's massive and plentiful flaws...

 

[White Lightning]

If I save her, she doesn't reward me with some unique item or quest line...nor to the men hunting her, they just walk away. Illusion of choice, both roads lead to dead ends, that is not meaningful at all.

You mean like...... how all the endings of New Vegas all lead to equally shitty lives for the wasteland?

I'm sorry but 99% of choices in video games, be they from Bethesda, all the way to Obsidian, don't lead to meaningful ends, they just lead to different variations of the same level of shit.

Except the situation above never leads to anything. Just quest complete, never to be spoken of again. If I kill all the Kings in Freeside, they are dead, the ending credits says, they are dead. Other NPCs mention that they are dead, the game world stays true to itself. Quests involving them and the NPC signing a truce, can't happen. If I kill random Redperson lady in the Inn during this quest...nobody mentions it, nobody cares, nothing changes in the plot. Thats a very stark contrast. If it doesn't matter to anybody in the game world, why should I care? BTW - You can make most everyone live a fairly good life at the end of New Vegas, but lets stick to Skyrim.

- Interesting, since I never saw even 1 of these appear in the game, outside of the pointless speech check to get into Riften. There are a lot more than I thought...however, reading over the list, I find most are pretty meaningless.

Meaningless in what way? they all advance the plot of the quest, and each causes the NPC to say something related to how you delt with the situation. Intimidating the NPC causes them to be hostile in dialog later, while persuading them makes them more neutral or friendly.

And those people being neutral/friendly/or hostile matters how? I just wait a couple days and everything is forgiven for forgotten. The advance the plot, but they don't CHANGE the plot, or the outcome. They are simply shortcuts. They are Obi-Wan Kenobi saying "You don't need to see my identification" and away you go. You aren't doing anything meaningful with those speech checks, outside of possibly skipping other content.

Bribing guards to ignore crimes is pointless, you are horse-led to the Thieves Guild and as mentioned before, you can join everyone...so you WILL likely be a member of this and do these quests. Investing in merchants is pointless as well. Just fast travel to every major city.

Making picks unbreakable is pointless, even master locks can be done with half the needed skill, and breaking picks is one of the best ways to improve the skill. I'd rather use crafting to make what I want, not like there is a shortage of dragon bones around the world. I think my character has roughly 40 in his chest at home.

But you aren't forced to join the Thieves Guild, and ROLEPLAYERS, you know, people who actually roleplay in RPGs, who don't join the Thieves Guild, would find that useful.

Many people don't use fast travel, and walking, or even fast raveling for that matter, to each city is pointless when you can just get a perk and not have to go to each city to sell your stuff.

Considering that making picks unbreakable requires you have 100 skill, the whole "breaking them improves the skill" argument is bunk, on top of that the skill is nice for people who don't want to deal with breaking picks at all.

Not being forced is NOT the same as not being dissuaded by logical choices. Do you not understand the difference? The world needs to be consistent and make sense within itself, Skyrim fails to do this.

You have to basically "waste" perks to get the ability in question, like you have to waste perks in lockpicking to get the special item bonus chance.

Yes, because lockpicks are so rare in Skyrim right? Or because it takes to many to open a lock right? So why do you need your lockpicks to never break at 100 skill? Are you that bad at the lockpicking mini-game? I managed a master lock, at 35 skill with 10 picks (with 90+ in my inventory), its not hard.

I'd rather just fail the quest as a result of their death. Making up my OWN story...stalking an NPC, sneaking into his house at night and being unable to kill him because he has a random fetch quest that I could honestly care less about. Bad design. I don't wanna do his quest first, I don't care about his quest, I want his head on a plate.

Random attack reason is not a legit explanation. The game can tell the difference between an NPC kill and a player kill (see: Accidentally killing Lydia with a Fireball), no reason to prevent me from killing whoever I want, especially when its something EXPECTED in these kind of open world games.

You are in the minority in that opinion then, most people prefer that NPcs stay alive, because most people don't like getting denied content because a NPC died.

Making all the NPCs protected like that has a chance of causing bugs, its only used on followers for a reason.

They can still be unkillable by Dragons/Vampires and allow the player to kill them. THAT is the point. There is nothing preventing that from happening, other than developer choice to stop you. MODs in the PC version (I have the console version) have proven this. Your argument is wrong. It was a bad developer choice, nothing more.

Again, game didn't even tell me about these choices. I guess my speech wasn't high enough...and i never bothered to level it because the game never showed me anywhere it could be useful. You have to level your speech, unknowingly BEFORE doing these quests (or spoil them) or you miss out and never even know about it. More bad design. FO:NV (45/65) choices showing you they exist is a much better way to inform the player...ya know, instead of NOT informing the player.

The game clearly labels
(Persuasion)
(Bribe)
(Intimidate)
in front of every choice that has a speech check, on top of that, the game is designed to allow players to retry speech checks they failed.

Failing a speech check causes the NPC to rebuff the player and leads back to the speech check dialog choice, at which point the player can leave the dialog, go level up their speech skill, or get +speech items, then return and try again.

Odd how I played 50 hours and the only one I EVER saw was the Riften gate one. How did I miss them if they were so visible? Was this changed in a patch or something?

Roleplaying without a properly designed world sucks. There is nothing to roleplay. Oh, I know, I'll be a evil murderer...oops, nope, can't do that, not unless I bring this lady 10 bear pelts first, then after I help her out...can I finally kill her in her sleep. Oh, I know, I'll be a noble good guy...oh wait, thats what the game is wants from me anyway. Oh, I know, I'll be an Orc Warrior who only uses a sword and shield...until I need to heal, during combat...then I'm a mage/alchemist, or until I need to progress the plot...then I'm apparently the Deen of Magicka High School.

As I should, but why would I? These are two opposing comments you just made. Of COURSE you would, why wouldn't you?! There is no reason not to join everyone. Its like having a chest at the end of the dungeon that has a sign above it: "Loot me, or don't loot me...its your choice". You loot, and find yourself with loot, or you don't...and simply don't get the loot.

Self-restraint? Seriously? Perhaps I should play with 1 hand tied behind my back as well? If I have to force myself not to use things directly in front of my face, they shouldn't be directly in front of my face.

I have no problems trying to impose some rules on myself to make the gameplay more interesting, I've done it before, but that usually happens in my 10th time through the game. Not my 2nd...or my 1st.

There are plenty of named NPCs in many towns you can just randomly kill if you play an evil murder.

Use potions that you buy from alchemists if you are playing a warrior, there is literally nothing that forces you to use the healing or alchemist skills.

The reason not to join everyone is because of something called roleplay, why would you join the mages college as a warrior? seriously, why? just because you can doesn't mean you should. If you picked a warrior character why are you choosing to play him as a mage?

Also, on my Nord character, I don't loot chests in Nodric burial tombs, because I roleplay a character who honors the Nord dead. Getting loot and not getting loot based on your choices is the point of making choices.

That's like saying "if you didn't want me to use a gun to shoot someone you shouldn't have put it in my face", all your doing is shifting all of your own personal responsibility onto other people and then blaming them for not babysitting you. Its childish.

Only takes 1 to break immersion.

You have to join the mages college to finish the main quest, its required in order to get the Elder Scroll.

Thats an interesting role play, what do you gain from that? Anything besides less gold and the self-knowledge that hundreds of unnamed undead guys still have their pretty things? Thats fairly original though, I'll credit you that. I just don't see much point in roleplaying something like that myself. When there are no options within the world, you have to make up rules like "I can't pick up that" to roleplay around, its pretty trite.

I'm not shifting anything. The point is simple. The world should have its own rules and be consistent within those rules that it establishes. Skyrim has no rules, maybe that makes it more open, but it also makes it incredibly shallow.

You don't have to JOIN the Mages College, you just need to go there. There is no Mage College quest you need to do to get the Scroll, just walk into the library, tell everyone you're Dragonborn, and then leave.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Except the situation above never leads to anything. Just quest complete, never to be spoken of again. If I kill all the Kings in Freeside, they are dead, the ending credits says, they are dead. Other NPCs mention that they are dead, the game world stays true to itself. Quests involving them and the NPC signing a truce, can't happen. If I kill random Redperson lady in the Inn during this quest...nobody mentions it, nobody cares, nothing changes in the plot. Thats a very stark contrast. If it doesn't matter to anybody in the game world, why should I care? BTW - You can make most everyone live a fairly good life at the end of New Vegas, but lets stick to Skyrim.

-Becoming Thane of a city makes the Guards call you Thane, and give you special privileges in regards to getting out of crimes.
-Becoming the leader of a guild causes all the people in the guild to call you boss/Harbinger/Listener/arch Mage and the Guards will comment on your status as well.
-Killing Parth makes the Greaybeards hate you and refuse to tell you the location of world walls, while the Blades offer you special anti-dragon powers, and not killing him causes the reverse.
-Many Daedric quests have NPCs involved in that quest thank you for either not killing them, or helping the prince.
-Most quests you do for NPCs raise their relationship rank with you, causing them to offer nicer dialog, make comments about helping them, and if they are merchants, slightly lowering their prices.

There are plenty of things that happen in the game world as the result of your actions, with people commenting on what you have done.

Also, the endings of New Vegas are 100% pointless because you do not get to experience them in the games themselves.

And those people being neutral/friendly/or hostile matters how? I just wait a couple days and everything is forgiven for forgotten. The advance the plot, but they don't CHANGE the plot, or the outcome. They are simply shortcuts. They are Obi-Wan Kenobi saying "You don't need to see my identification" and away you go. You aren't doing anything meaningful with those speech checks, outside of possibly skipping other content.

You don't skip content by using speech checks, also as said before, merchants liking.hating you slightly affects their prices.

Not being forced is NOT the same as not being dissuaded by logical choices. Do you not understand the difference? The world needs to be consistent and make sense within itself, Skyrim fails to do this.

You have to basically "waste" perks to get the ability in question, like you have to waste perks in lockpicking to get the special item bonus chance.

Yes, because lockpicks are so rare in Skyrim right? Or because it takes to many to open a lock right? So why do you need your lockpicks to never break at 100 skill? Are you that bad at the lockpicking mini-game? I managed a master lock, at 35 skill with 10 picks (with 90+ in my inventory), its not hard.

How is being a warrior, and thus not joining the thieves guild, a guild for thieves, not a logical choice?

Do you not understand basic reasoning?
Thieves Guild = for thieves
Warriors =/= thieves
Thieves guild =/= Warriors

I didn't really think I needed to explain that but you are simply failing to grasp elementary level thought processes here.

Those perks being a waste is pure opinion, not objective fact. Many find not having to deal with lower level locks at all to be a benefit.

It has nothing to do with being bad with the lockpicking mini game, it has to do with being able to take a perk and not have to deal with lock picks EVER again. why waste my time picking up every lockpick I see, even if they are common, when I can take a perk and never deal with it again?

They can still be unkillable by Dragons/Vampires and allow the player to kill them. THAT is the point. There is nothing preventing that from happening, other than developer choice to stop you. Mobs in the PC version (I have the console version) have proven this. Your argument is wrong. It was a bad developer choice, nothing more.

As I said before, giving people that kind of protect can cause bugsm its given to followers only for a reason.

Not to mention, there are plenty of times when Dragons/Vampires attack towns, and in the process of trying to kill them you will hit a NPC by accident, and since your probably have high level gar you will most likely kill them by doing so.

Having them be killable by the player only introduces players to accidental killings, having to reload the saves game, and then doing the ENTIRE battle over again.

It wasn't a bad game design at all, it was Bethesda thinking more then two seconds ahead and realizing "ohh shit people might accidentally kill NPcs during town attacks forcing them to reload a save game and do the ENTIRE attack over again. which most people don't find fun".

Odd how I played 50 hours and the only one I EVER saw was the Riften gate one. How did I miss them if they were so visible? Was this changed in a patch or something?

It has been like hat since the game was released, I suspect you either
A. haven't played it, and given how little you seemingly know of how skyrim works wouldn't surprise me
B. You were to busy hitting the skip dialog button and missed them

Only takes 1 to break immersion.

You have to join the mages college to finish the main quest, its required in order to get the Elder Scroll.

Thats an interesting role play, what do you gain from that? Anything besides less gold and the self-knowledge that hundreds of unnamed undead guys still have their pretty things? Thats fairly original though, I'll credit you that. I just don't see much point in roleplaying something like that myself. When there are no options within the world, you have to make up rules like "I can't pick up that" to roleplay around, its pretty trite.

I'm not shifting anything. The point is simple. The world should have its own rules and be consistent within those rules that it establishes. Skyrim has no rules, maybe that makes it more open, but it also makes it incredibly shallow.

Actually no, you don't have to join the mages college at all, using information given to you before hand, it is 100% possible to bypass the college entirely, and find Septimus.

Similarly, you don't have to help Brynolf/join The thieves guild either. If you listen to Delphine, and listen to he NPCs in the Thalmor base who say Esbern is in the Ratway.

Joining any guild is 100% up to the player.

Whats the point of doing that?
It's called staying true to the character I made?
It's called roleplaying?
It's the same reason I didn't do many of the quests in New Vegas, because it goes against the morals of the character I made.

Do you even understand what roleplaying is?
What getting into character is like?

From what I gather your just a person who plays RPGs like any other game, you don't bother making up a backstory for your character, or trying to think of how his backstory and life before the game would shape his actions or beliefs during the game.

You seemingly play RPGs like games, instead of role playing games.

Also Skyrim is consistent with itself. People of note who die get mentions, people not noteworthy who die don't get mentions because people die all the time.