Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim: Dragonborn DLC files found in latest patch

[Matheus Moreira]

Yeah, I know, how did Bethesda let those slide??! They must not understand basic reasoning either. Great point. I don't think you should be calling the Bethesda design team elementary level thought processes holders though, thats a bit mean. In Skyrim, Warrior = Mage = Thief = Merchant = Blacksmith = Enchanter = Everything. In your self imposed ruleset that only YOU are privy to knowing...what you said above could be true, but in the GAME, they are not true. You saying it is meaningless, because in the game, its not true.

The GAME WORLD should impose certain choices to hold in place the reasoning for those rules. The player should NOT be required to know the lore backwards and forwards and HAVE to impose self limitation to have the game world make sense. The world should already make sense. You are 1 person in a vast world, you are not the DM, YOU are suppose to follow the rules of this world as they exist. The developers are the DM, they set the rules. If they fail to set the rules properly, then they failed to design the game properly. You may love the openness of having no rules, but again, I find it an incredibly shallow gameplay experience.

If a gun can only fire 10mm rounds, then it fires 10mm rounds. It doesn't also fire 20mm and 9mm and 50cal rounds just to allow the game to be "open to do anything" (except killing who you want...)...those rules exist to make the world seem like a real place. If you ignore those rules, the world loses its credibility.

YOU may force these RP rules in yourself and get something more from it, but 90% of the gaming populous will not, and in their games, they are god who can and likely WILL do everything. The number of people who self impose rulesets is a very small minority (just because you are part of that minority, doesn't make it less of a minority), the default game type should NOT require self imposed rules to properly roleplay a character in a roleplay game. Roleplay should be BUILT IN to the game, or its not a roleplay game.

Hell, I can make Call of Duty an RPG by your ruleset, you can make Monopoly an RPG by your rules. That doesn't make those games RPGs. Skyrim is only an RPG in the fact it has level ups and it takes it name from a famous RPG series of games, otherwise it is simply NOT an RPG.

I guess that argument concludes the point of this discussion. RPG is a kind of game that takes most of its fun from facing the consequences of your acts. Having to impose yourself the rules is like playing a competitive game with no adversaries. Having to simulate the adversities by yourself isn't enjoyable, the fun is to face the adversities that come as consequences to a choice you have made, and adversities that are there, in the world, making it real, and not only on your mind.

In Skyrim, even when there's consequences, many times they are too permissive. Is what happens with the guilds: you don't want just to read someone calling you "mage" or "warrior", you want to see people turning faces on you, helping you from time to time, charging double for some item, counting on you to help them on daily work, walking into their houses when you enter the city and so on. You want to see your life getting relevantly harder or easier in some circles, want to develop the bonds you share, see the fruits of what you've done, and you want all that to be in the game, not just in your head.

I'll give and example of the consequence-facing. In Baldur's Gate 2 you meet a dwarf warrior NPC that you can let join your group. His alignment is evil. You also meet a good elf mage. You can let both enter the group, but the warrior will bully the mage to the point that the mage will fall out if you don't dismiss the warrior. You don't need to think "oh, one is evil, another one is good, so I will walk with either one or the other, because if I let, they will be my pals until the end of the game, regardless of what I do", no, that's a consequence that exists in the game, depending on what you do, and you have to face it, there's no way you can walk with both of them for very long, and it makes the game so much more dynamic, the characters so much more alive, your actions so much more important.

I mean, why don't a daedra at least send his minions to attack me when I'm doing something contrary to his ways with the very weapon he gave me? Even if I use the mind-rules, I can't roleplay the divine ire of my godfather upon me for disrespecting him. Why didn't the girl in Whiterun buy the tavern, as Zenn3k said? What do the Companions do after my quests with them are finished? Does Lydia have a life when I'm out of Breezehome?

Again, as I stated, I like Skyrim a lot, but its lack of limits/consequences to the actions you make (besides of shallow npcs and repetitive miscellaneous quests) disappointed me a bit.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

My eyes may be failing me, but if they are not mistaken, a number of those conditions contain the words "Dragon" and "Mounted"

Dragon Mounted.

As in, Mounted on a Dragon.

...............

[h2/]ASDFGHJKLQWERTYUIOPZXCVBNM[/HEADING]

[image/]http://static1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Holy+shit+yes+_b89d7bb4b9f71fed2da5ec4d2cce1796.gif[/IMG]

Bravo Bethesda, Bravo.

You guys can go argue about the lack of choices and characters and blah blah blah all you want. I'm gonna go ride a fucking dragon.

 

[SajuukKhar]

In Skyrim, even when there's consequences, many times they are too permissive. Is what happens with the guilds: you don't want just to read someone calling you "mage" or "warrior", you want to see people turning faces on you, helping you from time to time, charging double for some item, counting on you to help them on daily work, walking into their houses when you enter the city and so on. You want to see your life getting relevantly harder or easier in some circles, want to develop the bonds you share, see the fruits of what you've done, and you want all that to be in the game, not just in your head.

The Dark Brotherhood, and Thieves guild, are secret societies, almost no one knows you are in them, and thus have no reason to charge you more for them.

The Companions, while respected, are common enough to where it isn't an out of place sight to see one. Being a warrior in a land of warriors wouldn't make you stand out.

On the other hand most Nords hate, but fear, mages, while no one likes Mages, no one would dare treat them poorly to their face, or risk being melted alive.

People, outside of the factions themselves, don't react to your faction, because there is logically no reason for them to do so.

I mean, why don't a daedra at least send his minions to attack me when I'm doing something contrary to his ways with the very weapon he gave me?

Explained in lore, the luminal barrier prevents Daedric lords from sending minions into the mortal realm, outside the area directly around their shrines, unless they are summoned.

Why didn't the girl in Whiterun buy the tavern, as Zenn3k said?

Ysolda does take over the tavern, if you kill the inn keeper. Ysolda mentions taking over the inn after the inn keeper is ready to give it up, and the inn keeper says she isn't ready to give it up yet, but if you kill the inn keeper, Ysolda becomes the new inn keeper.

What do the Companions do after my quests with them are finished?

There are 4 or 5 random encounters with members of the companions were you can find them out hunting animals for jobs.

Does Lydia have a life when I'm out of Breezehome?

As housecarl her life is to serve you and protect your house, again, they explain this to you in dialog that every house carl has, Lydia sits around our house, eating your food, and doing her job, which is to ay protecting your house.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

I disagree, fallout's perks were so dull and uninteresting that I spend an hour sitting at the level up screen looking through all the perks because I couldn't choose one because I found them all to be incredibly worthless.

Skyrim's perks on the other hand, I sit at the level up screen for awhile because I cant decide which ones to pick because most of them offer me a worthwhile bonus.

"I disagree." That's what I was trying to point out. Everyone has an opinion. You're not really presenting your arguments as your own subjective opinion. You're trying to force your argument on us as if it were objective fact, and as evidenced by some of the people I see opposing you, it most certainly is not.(This is not to say the other guy's any better, mind you. He was doing the same thing)

Why can't people just agree to disagree anymore?

Also, I actually sat at the level up screen for an hour simply reading the descriptions for all the perks because I thought they were often amusing. Skyrim's perks are simply the name and the effect it gives you, which is quite often nothing more than a simple math fix. That was kinda dull, to me. But hey, I'm not a Skyrim fanboy so what do I know?

 

[Matheus Moreira]

Explained in lore, the luminal barrier prevents Daedric lords from sending minions into the mortal realm, outside the area directly around their shrines, unless they are summoned.

Ysolda does take over the tavern, if you kill the inn keeper. Ysolda mentions taking over the inn after the inn keeper is ready to give it up, and the inn keeper says she isn't ready to give it up yet, but if you kill the inn keeper, Ysolda becomes the new inn keeper.

There are 4 or 5 random encounters with members of the companions were you can find them out hunting animals for jobs.

As housecarl her life is to serve you and protect your house, again, they explain this to you in dialog that every house carl has, Lydia sits around our house, eating your food, and doing her job, which is to ay protecting your house.

1 - Can't they at least speak to me or speak to their followers to kill me?
2 - That's bad, I won't kill her.
3 - They are the most respected warrior guild in Skyrim and they just hunt animals here and there?
4 - Yeah, that's true. But let's change the example: if I marry her and stay 30 days out, will her reaction change?

 

[SajuukKhar]

Also, I actually sat at the level up screen for an hour simply reading the descriptions for all the perks because I thought they were often amusing. Skyrim's perks are simply the name and the effect it gives you, which is quite often nothing more than a simple math fix. That was kinda dull, to me. But hey, I'm not a Skyrim fanboy so what do I know?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_perks
Most perks for New vegas are also just math.

-10% chance that the Stranger will finish off a target in V.A.T.S.
-10% chance that Miss Fortune will incapacitate a target in V.A.T.S.
-+5% Critical Chance.
-Reduces all AP costs by 10%.
-You instantly level up again.
-+20% damage with explosives
-+5% overall damage, more violent death animations.
-While wearing light armor or no armor, you run 10% faster.
-+50% thrown weapon velocity and range.
-+25% damage done by dynamite, hatchets, knives, revolvers, and lever-action guns
-+25% accuracy in V.A.T.S. with two-handed weapons
-+20% Hit points restored with stimpaks.
-+30 hit points.
-+25 DT against explosives.
-Explosives have a 25% larger area of effect.
-25% more likely to hit the target's head in V.A.T.S.
-Damage taken by limbs reduced by 50%.
-In V.A.T.S., you do an additional 15% damage when targeting the torso.
-Chems, food, and stimpaks (in Hardcore) last twice as long.
-Floor traps or mines will not be set off
-Repair any item using a roughly similar item.
-+15 Action Points.
-+50% damage with critical hits.
-Half as likely to get addicted.

I dont see how you find them amusing.

1 - Can't they at least speak to me or speak to their followers to kill me?
2 - That's bad, I won't kill her.
3 - They are the most respected warrior guild in Skyrim and they just hunt animals here and there?
4 - Yeah, that's true. But let's change the example: if I marry her and stay 30 days out, will her reaction change?

1. what followers? Daedra worship became even more taboo then it was before due to the Oblivion crisis, and speaking to mortals is difficult unless they are believers.
2. ok
3. they hunt animals because animals like sabre cats, and bears, harass people who work out in the wild, which is to say most of skyrim. they aren't just hunting animals, they are clearing out animal groups to protect people
4. I do recall her saying that she is glad to see me after I came back from an advneutre.

 

[Wolfhowl the shadow lurker]

Yes kiddies, when you lose an argument because your reasoning is flawed...its because the other person is a troll. Take note.

Heres a funny idea, if you don't like it don't play it and some people do, a lot of people in fact so why don't we just leave each to his own?

 

[Zenn3k]

Were on earth did you get the idea Bethesda has no plans to release it for the PS3?

I love how when a game company says "we are holding back a game because even by our standards its too buggy" people complain, and yet, had the game been released as it was, people would have complained about it being buggy and unplayable.

I feel bad for Bethesda
-Release a buggy game? Get yelled at
-try to make a buggy game less buggy? get yelled at

Opinions are pretty cool and hey, I'll even let you have your own. But Fallout's perks are more interesting and more useful than Skyrim's.

I disagree, fallout's perks were so dull and uninteresting that I spend an hour sitting at the level up screen looking through all the perks because I couldn't choose one because I found them all to be incredibly worthless.

Skyrim's perks on the other hand, I sit at the level up screen for awhile because I cant decide which ones to pick because most of them offer me a worthwhile bonus.

Besides
-Intense Training
-Comprehension
-and that grim reaper one that respores AP
most of the perks were +damage, fire rate, throw distance, or something similar, all of which were pointless because you already did those things so fast that increasing them was really pointless.

Ive gotten more use of my illusion perks that raise the level of monsters I can affect from 6 to 50 then I ever did those perks in NEw Vegas.

Really?

You find +20% more damage with Weapon TYPE-A and Half the Cost of SPELLTYPE-B spells more interesting perk choices than.

Black Widow/Lady Killer - +10% damage to the opposite sex and unique dialogue options with certain characters.
Cherchez La Femme/Confirmed Bachelor - +10% damage to the same sex and unique dialogue options with certain characters.
Terrifying Presence - Can intimidate foes through dialogue; closing dialogue results in the foe fleeing for 5 seconds. (btw, these alone are better than any speech check/intimidate in ALL of Skyrim)

Cannibal- When you're in Sneak mode, you gain the option to eat a human corpse to regain hit points, but lose Karma.
Rad Child- +2 HP per second per 200 rads accumulated. (this can get pretty crazy)
Bloody Mess- +5% overall damage, more violent death animations. (people explode)

Just to name a few...?

Lots of modifications on AP, damage, and other combat skills, but how is that ANY different from +20% damage repeated for bows, axes, swords, 2-handed weapons...shields. There isn't 1 interesting game changing perk in all of Skyrim, not one.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I don't find
-Black Widow/Lady Killer
-Cherchez La Femme/Confirmed Bachelor
-Terrifying Presence
interesting because
-The dialog options they reveal are trivial and useless, as the quests can be completed the same way regardles.
-The +10% damage only applies to a small group
-The terrifying presence perk is negated by just the default intimidate speech option in Skyrim.

I would far rather spend three perks and get a universal +60% damage upgrade from Skyrim's one handed perks.

+60% universal damage > +10% damage that only applies to one specific group, and some minor speech options I don't need.

-Cannibal's hit point gain is trivial, and can be negated by just eating food.
-Rad Child is also pointless due to the over abundance of stimpacks and other healing items in the game.
-Bloody Mess's damage increase is, again, trivialistic given the massive damage you do just with base guns, and the more violent death only made it more difficult to loot corpses since they exploded into such tiny pieces.

I would rather spend perks increasing my illusion skill and getting dual casting to my skills that before only affected level 6 npcs, now can affect up to level 50, which is FAR more useful.

Skyrim's perks are far more... tame, I guess is the word, but they are considerably more useful.

to put it another way I would rather have a beat up old car that gets 80 miles to the gallon then a fancy looking sports car that gets 5.

Fallout is the sports car, Skyrim is the old car.

 

[RedDeadFred]

My reasoning is simple. You should not have to self impose rules on a game for that world to make sense. Skyrim does not make sense within itself without self imposing rules on what you are and aren't allowed to do.

I don't think you really got his point on this issue. I'll try and clarify a bit:

Bethesda leaves all options open for players because some people might want to make a god like character who is master of all (I myself created a character like this). They don't impose any restrictions because the character I just described would be impossible to make if they were there.

However, if you only want your character to be an honorable warrior who doesn't partake in magic, then you can simply just do the main quest and companions guild. Yes you can argue that using shouts is magic but if that really turns you off, don't even do the main quest. You can simply make your own story. I'll admit that it does take a lot of creativity some times but if you really develop your character and give them motivations for what they do, I find it to be a rewarding experience.

This kind of roleplaying is definitely not for everyone though. Some people will be find it to be boring because they can't come up with anything interesting to do. That's totally fine but for me at least, Skyrim is a framework for which I can create my own stories and characters in. This is where the long lasting appeal comes from for a lot of long term Elder Scrolls players.

I can understand why you might not enjoy doing this but I wish you wouldn't dismiss an entire way of playing the game as a bad design decision simply because it's not the type thing you lie.

For example: I don't like RTS games very much. I get bored very quickly but I can see the appeal for others and know that many are actually very good games. I don't dismiss them as badly designed simply because they aren't what floats my boat.

Anyway, that was me trying to help you understand where a lot of Elder Scrolls players and myself are coming from. I hope this helped but if it didn't, no hard feelings. I can't understand why people like some things sometimes either.

 

[Tanis]

I just wish they'd release DLC that doesn't feel so 'cheap'.

I want another DLC/whatever like Bloodmoon.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I just wish they'd release DLC that doesn't feel so 'cheap'.

I want another DLC/whatever like Bloodmoon.

The reason why Skyrim's DLC feels "cheap" is because unlike Bloodmoon, and Shivering Isles, the DLc isn't made up mostly of content you are never told to explore.

If you actually look at the total number of places in Bloodmoon and SI, most of them had no quest or anything tied to them, however, because of this most of the places were of lower average quality.

Dawnguard had significantly less total size compared to SI, but at the same time it allowed them to make the places in Dawnguard far more detailed then most places in SI.

Dawnguard gave up size in favor of quality, and quality isn't always apparent, so it feels overall less, which in fact, the quality/size ration is about the same.

I doubt we will see a SI or Bloodmoon like expansion, because they were mostly wasted space, with low quality dungeons, and Bethesda has been focusing more on making a fewer number of things, but making those things far more detailed.

 

[KingHodor]

Soooo Solstheim... yeah, some might call this recycling, but the backstory promises new and interesting developments there.

The island was given to the Dunmer as a new homeland after the Red Mountain destroyed Vvardenfell, covered their Western mainland holdings in ash and opened up their Southern provinces to an invasion of vengeful Argonians finally being able to free their enslaved brethren.
We can expect a lot of Dunmer culture, as evidenced by the new Bonemold and Chitin armor. It is very possible that Raven Rock, an Imperial ebony mining colony that the Nerevarine (i.e. "you") helped build up in TESIII: Bloodmoon and which was already abandoned by the time of the Oblivion crisis could have grown into a new Stronghold for the Dunmer refugees, possibly suffering from massive overcrowding. At the same time, we have the Skaal, a xenophobic tribe of Nords far removed from their mainland brethren and thus likely to be unwilling to accept any Dunmer encroachment into the North of the Island.
Oh, and Solstheim was also the place where the Snow Prince, the last great leader of the Snow Elves, fell in battle against the Nords - so we might expect more content involving the last hidden remnants of this once-majestic race, and possibly find out if the Rieklings, a degenerate race of mer, might yet be another offshoot of the Snow Elves.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I don't like Fallout's perks much more, but at least those were interesting and unique. Skyrim's are just +10% damage and such. With a whole perk tree that is useless (lockpicking. Seriously what idiot came up with that one?)

I disagree on the attributes. How could removing attributes on it's own have added to character diversity at all?

In past Elder Scrolls games, the bonuses you got to your attributes, the +1/3/5 bonus, were determined by how much you raised a skill related to that attribute.

Because of this however, by raising you major and minor skills, one would eventually reach a point where one would max out the attributes related to their major and minor skills long before they would finish leveling up because of the bonuses.

This ultimately made people have to level up attributes related to skills that weren't their major or minor skills, and by the time one was done leveling, one would have all their main attributes maxed, and most of the other attributes at very high level.

Since attributes in the Elder Scrolls, as with attributes in all other RPGs, control things like carry weight, stamina, magicka, health, and so on, the end result would be that most character would have similar, if not exactly the same stats.

The Warrior, Mage, and Thief characters that started off with wildly different levels of hp/magicka/stamina would all end up with basically the same levels in those things.

Past Elder Scrolls games leveling system could thus be described as a pyramid, the lower levels, or "base", were the most widespread and diverse your character ever got, but as you leveled up, or got close to the "tip" of the pyramid, the more similar they became.

By removing the major/minor skill system, and attributes, and replacing attributes with perks, Bethesda flipped the pyramid upside down.

Skyrim's leveling system is an upside down pyramid, everyone at the "base" is the same, however as they level up, and gain perks, they grow more varied from each other, getting more varied the close the reach the "top".

My Warrior, Mage, and Thief, who in this example have the same hp/magicka/stamina, and 100 in all skills, are VASTLY different from each other because of the perks they have.
-My warrior deals double damage and has special power attacks
-My thief can turn invisible when entering stealth
-My mage can cast uber-high level magic spells with almost zero magicka drain.

On the other hand my same characters in Oblivion, and Morrowind, with 100 in each attribute, and 100 in each skill, all deal the same damage with all weapons, get the same armor protection from all armors, and cast all the same spells for the same amount of magicka. The vast differences I started off with became negated.
.
.
It is the fundamental flaw of every RPG with an attribute system, from past Elder Scrolls games to Fallout.

A character with the same SPECIAL stats, in this example all 5s, and 100 in all skills, would be exactly the same as another character with all 5s in every SPECIAL and 100 in all skills, the perks in Fallout provide only menial differences between the two.

When you have things like Health/Magicka/Stamina/Action points/Carry Weight etc. etc. controlled by attributes it ends up making most character vastly similar.

I mean, in New Vegas, how many character really had a huge difference in carry weight? the answer. few.

Attribute systems impose conformity, and similarity, between characters, and unless you do some crazy min/max of attributes, like bringing your perception down to 1, the visible differences between having a 5 or 7 in said attribute are slim, to none.

Attribute systems have, and always will, impose conformity, and stifle character diversity, in RPGs by removing control of many important things that define your character out of your hands.

 

[Dandark]

This Solsteim place sounds interesting, I wouldn't mind seeing this. Also Dragon mounts? HELL YEAH!

This actually makes me want to get into Skyrim again, I kinda wrecked my PC version by installing way too many mods so that I have too many features but I may try clean it up and play with less mods now just to experience this DLC as it sounds promising.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Snip

...You actually thought that I said their effects were amusing? You listed a bunch of effects. I said descriptions. In Skyrim, they were a name and effect. In Fallout, each perk had a description to go with it. Those are what I found amusing, not their effects.

 

[Zagzag]

Snip

So you are basically saying that you can't roleplay because the game lets you do things that your character wouldn't do?

Pretty much the entire POINT of roleplaying in games is only doing the things that your character would do. This REQUIRES that there be things that you wouldn't want to do, otherwise it's just moot.

In an entirely linear game with no choices whatsoever, you can't actually roleplay, even if you play the game exactly as your character would, because there is no alternative to doing this.

Roleplaying basically requires self imposed restrictions to work properly.

 

[Zenn3k]

Snip

So you are basically saying that you can't roleplay because the game lets you do things that your character wouldn't do?

Pretty much the entire POINT of roleplaying in games is only doing the things that your character would do. This REQUIRES that there be things that you wouldn't want to do, otherwise it's just moot.

In an entirely linear game with no choices whatsoever, you can't actually roleplay, even if you play the game exactly as your character would, because there is no alternative to doing this.

Roleplaying basically requires self imposed restrictions to work properly.

My point was, that self imposed rules should not be REQUIRED as the only way to roleplay.

In a properly designed game, proper rules already exist in the world to make it consistent and believable. A hulking brute of an Orc has no business in the Thieves Guild. If the game doesn't have any rules like this, it is broken by design.

I should not have to, as the player, impose arbitrary rules on a game world in order to achieve something that every good RPG made in the last 10 years does on its own. Its simply lazy design.

I don't play a RPG to sit there and write down a list of all the things I can or can't do within the world I'm just getting to learn. The world should be true to its own established rules and know when to enforce those rules properly.

Basically, in Skyrim, you don't have a "character" unless you go out of your own way to make yourself have one, because the game world doesn't give you any choices to allow you make one. You are 2 arms and a voice people call the Dragonborn. The game gives me no reason to believe I am anything more than that because it doesn't give me any choice or consequence to my actions.

There is a difference between taking a world that exists and functions within its own rules and imposing new invented rulesets to FURTHER roleplay and having a world that exists and doesn't have any rules and being required to self impose rules just to roleplay at ALL.