England Jails Homophobes

[Platypus540]

Why can't the US do this to the WBC?

Because we don't jail people for unpopular opinions like the "free" nations of Europe do.

I didn't mean just for having the opinion that homosexuals are satanic. Even if it is stupid and narrow-minded, hell it's their opinion and they can have it. I meant for the protests, etc. Those are pretty clearly unjust and I think should be qualified as hate crimes.

Is one truly free if another is allowed to call for his death openly and encourage those around him to harm him? No. Freedom has reasonable limits. True freedom is not just freedom to behave how you wish but also freedom from threat.

Isn't that what I said?

 

[Marxaeus]

I'm seeing a lot of 'these guys didn't really do anything wrong' comments in regards to the fact they were going about campaigning, albeit in a fucked up way, for a law that makes being a homosexual a death sentence.

Seriously? Didn't do anything wrong? I know the world is still dragging it's feet and people still get touchy over something like homosexuality. But we REALLY need to rip church (or whatever form of religious belief) and state apart. I'm aware these guys feel it's a crime because of their religion. But religion has no say in what laws should be passed when those laws make absolutely no sense.

Calling for a law that allows the execution of murderers or pedophiles? Fair enough, people believe these guys are the scum of the earth for doing something as horrible as that. Calling for a law that allows the imprisonment and execution of people of the same sex loving each other? No, that is not alright. We shouldn't even be trying to give the homosexual community equal rights, they should already have the exact same rights we all have already.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

A nice, lively discussion going on. Most people going about it pretty civilly too. Great to see ^^

It seems two sides have emerged and there is very little compromise; those who don't believe it should be a crime to vocally hate gay people or any other group, and those who think it should be a crime to vocally hate said groups. No one at all seems to have taken the side of "these guys are heroes" which is, although expected, awesome, lol.

I'm still of the opinion that it should be legal to voice hatred of a sexuality and to campaign for their legal execution. I'm pretty hardline when it comes to what I accept under the freedom of speech banner.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves...

Such a British response.

[insert hate speech here]

I say, old boy, would you calm the bloody hell down, we don't accept that kind of rudeness around here

[continue hate speech here]

Right, that's it.

[HEADING=1]You're nicked, you slaaaaaaaaaag![/HEADING]

I read your comment in the most stereotypical 'old English man' voice, lolol.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

And this friends, is why Britain is awesome. We actually shut the loud mouth bigots up and lock em in cells if we have to rather than give them a podium and let them run the country.

You think it's awesome because they are locking up people you disagree with. Would your tone change if they started locking up people who were bigoted towards a group you also hold hatred for?

What's the point of this thread again?

Apart from everyone hating on these guys (no problem with that), this thread doesn't seem to have any discussion value.

You mustn't have read any of the 7 pages, then.

 

[Marxaeus]

I'm still of the opinion that it should be legal to voice hatred of a sexuality and to campaign for their legal execution. I'm pretty hardline when it comes to what I accept under the freedom of speech banner.

See this is what I feel as a society we have a problem with. Not that I hate your opinion or disagree with you (though I have no way to say it without seeming like I am disagreeing) but saying it's okay to voice hatred of a people's sexuality would mean people pushing for more. If that ever did come to pass (and I pray to whatever force in the universe that it doesn't), what's to say people won't start saying let's campaign for the legal execution of minorities or the execution of people following religions we disagree with.

Nobody can say that it's horrible and wrong, because if that's wrong then everything that had led up to these campaigns would also be wrong, starting with the right to legally voice that homosexuals should be legally executed.


As a footnote. People would be saying stuff like this now, but how fast do you think they would change their tune when the men realize that includes the homosexual women in porn?

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Oh god. I was just reading through some of the pages of posts that have poped up while I was asleep and it dawned on me... for the first time ever... I think America has it right and England is all back the front o.o

But seriously, hyperbole aside, that the WBC is allowed to operate in the U.S. and would see its members swiftly thrown in prison under this British law, makes me rather sad.

More and more people seem to be happy to file speech they dislike under the 'hate speech' folder and send folks off to jail without a care. I think we have become TOO comfortable; we have decided our way is right and anyone who disagrees with us can just be locked away because "I won't want to hear their incorrect hate speech."

I don't like where this is going and suddenly find myself a great deal less liking of England.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Saying it's okay to voice hatred of a people's sexuality would mean people pushing for more.

You can't say make that argument if we can't

We are saying: allow people to be locked up for this, and what else will people be locked up for?

You are saying: allow people to get away with this, and what else will they want to do?

Obviously neither of us wants harm to come to people and we all want every one to be as happy and free as possible. It just comes down to how we go about it.

Oh humans, why you so different?

 

[Tipsy Giant]

snip....
I feel that although these guys are huge pricks, we would all be singing a different tune--at least a more 'meh, I don't care' one--if they were campaigning for the legal execution of a more hated group, like paedohpiles and child molesters. I just wonder how okay it is for us to begin deciding who can and cannot speak their mind, on the basis that some people will dislike it, or what the moral majority feels okay with. It seems to be at least on the utter most border of a slippery slope. Careful treading required, lol.

Paedophiles and child molesters have generally commited a crime. Gay people have commited no crime. I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion. Sexual orientation is protected under the same basis.

...snip...

This is hate speech pure and simple. I am completely unconflicted about this.

Exactly, people don't defend homosexuality as avidly as they defend groups with equal rights in society and bullying on any level cannot be tolerated, I can't imagine how unsafe the people living there must have felt, i'm sure this is a relief for them and their loved ones.

 

[Marxaeus]

Saying it's okay to voice hatred of a people's sexuality would mean people pushing for more.

We are saying: allow people to be locked up for this, and what else will people be locked up for?

You are saying: allow people to get away with this, and what else will they want to do?

Forgive me, it's almost 3.20 and I haven't slept for a while. I take back my statement and agree that if we lock them up for this we'll all wonder what else people would be locked up for, but when we don't take things like this seriously, we are kind of just sitting back and watching what happens, only stepping in when things go to far.

I don't think these guys should have been arrested for saying stuff like this, even though I disagree with what they say. But I'm just going to agree with George Carlins' thoughts that if rights can be taken away then they're not rights, they're privileges. We can all shout about we have a right to do this, the right to do that etc etc. but when we go too far you'll see that those rights can be pulled out from under you faster than you think.


And my mind is too tired to care if this post made any sense whatsoever.

 

[Tipsy Giant]

Oh god. I was just reading through some of the pages of posts that have poped up while I was asleep and it dawned on me... for the first time ever... I think America has it right and England is all back the front o.o

But seriously, hyperbole aside, that the WBC is allowed to operate in the U.S. and would see its members swiftly thrown in prison under this British law, makes me rather sad.

More and more people seem to be happy to file speech they dislike under the 'hate speech' folder and send folks off to jail without a care. I think we have become TOO comfortable; we have decided our way is right and anyone who disagrees with us can just be locked away because "I won't want to hear their incorrect hate speech."

I don't like where this is going and suddenly find myself a great deal less liking of England.

I couldn't disagree more, this makes me proud of england

Our diversity is our greatest attribute and we protect our diversity in all shapes and forms, this is truly the way to breed an atmosphere of acceptance and understanding of different sexual alignments, different religions, races etc etc.

These groups have all been persecuted and showing that we protect our people from hate rallying is important. If all these men wanted was to change the law there are proper channels for this. If they wanted to rouse hatred in the community and create a hostile environment for legally abiding residents they should be excluded from society

 

[Elvis Starburst]

Is it bad that I looked at the pictures of the convicted and thought about how typical it seems? I am not a racist in any way, but something about people like that just scream "I hated this, and it's a typical thing for me, and/or our kind"

That's really just me though.

Captcha: Love you .............. I am ok with this

 

[CoffeeBoy]

I'm still of the opinion that it should be legal to voice hatred of a sexuality and to campaign for their legal execution.

There are no legal executions in Britain; therefore, this is a campaign to elicit illegal action. It is not a campaign to criminalize homosexuality, but to execute homosexuals.

 

[Torrasque]

I was expecting something different from this, but I'm not entirely sure what I expected.
Maybe I thought that some people that just didn't like homosexuals were jailed and that seemed silly?
This seems like a simple case of "you guys are being hateful douchebags and are going to jail for it". These douchebags could be hateful of any group of people, it really doesn't matter. What does matter, is that they were handing out leaflets telling people about it and making people fear for their safety. That isn't cool no matter what.

I'm interested in what potential history these guys have. You don't just suddenly start handing out leaflets saying "KILL THE GAYS" some day, that shit builds up.

 

[chadachada123]

I'm still of the opinion that it should be legal to voice hatred of a sexuality and to campaign for their legal execution.

There are no legal executions in Britain; therefore, this is a campaign to elicit illegal action. It is not a campaign to criminalize homosexuality, but to execute homosexuals.

Are you saying that it'd be alright if they made it a two-pronged campaign, one to legalize execution for certain "horrendous" "crimes," and the second to include homosexuality as a "crime" worthy of death?

I really don't see much of a distinction between this approach and "we should execute homosexuals."

Not that I don't think that these assholes deserve to rot in jail and learn some lessons on sexuality the hard way (if you know what I mean), just that I don't see where the line on speech is drawn here.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Saying it's okay to voice hatred of a people's sexuality would mean people pushing for more.

We are saying: allow people to be locked up for this, and what else will people be locked up for?

You are saying: allow people to get away with this, and what else will they want to do?

Forgive me, it's almost 3.20 and I haven't slept for a while. I take back my statement and agree that if we lock them up for this we'll all wonder what else people would be locked up for, but when we don't take things like this seriously, we are kind of just sitting back and watching what happens, only stepping in when things go to far.

I don't think these guys should have been arrested for saying stuff like this, even though I disagree with what they say. But I'm just going to agree with George Carlins' thoughts that if rights can be taken away then they're not rights, they're privileges. We can all shout about we have a right to do this, the right to do that etc etc. but when we go too far you'll see that those rights can be pulled out from under you faster than you think.


And my mind is too tired to care if this post made any sense whatsoever.

Your post is fine, don't worry. We seem to agree; these guys are idiots, maybe locking them up is not a great idea.

Our diversity is our greatest attribute and we protect our diversity in all shapes and forms

So long as your opinion isn't that of hate against a group I don't hate, it seems ;P

I once heard a man refer to England as a socialist nightmare and didn't understand them at all. It was a few years ago. But now I'm starting to. The law over there is going out of its way to be PC and make everyone all happy and lovey dovey. People should be free to stand in the street and proclaim their hatred for homosexuals until the cows come home. They should have every right in the world to say they should be arrested and to request they be executed. Filing it under hate speech and rushing to make sure no gay people were upset is offensive as hell. You don't get special treatment because you're a minority. You don't get to make laws that demand no one voices how much they hate you. The world isn't free if if no one is free to hate.

I dislike the U.S. for a lot of reasons, but one thing they do right is their free speech.

Is it bad that I looked at the pictures of the convicted and thought about how typical it seems? I am not a racist in any way, but something about people like that just scream "I hated this, and it's a typical thing for me, and/or our kind"

That's really just me though.

Captcha: Love you .............. I am ok with this

Robot, human love? I will not stand for this! Execution! It is immoral!

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

I'm still of the opinion that it should be legal to voice hatred of a sexuality and to campaign for their legal execution.

There are no legal executions in Britain; therefore, this is a campaign to elicit illegal action. It is not a campaign to criminalize homosexuality, but to execute homosexuals.

That's a strawman argument at best and completely missing the point at worst. They are arguing it SHOULD be legal, not that they should illegally execute people.

 

[dobahci]

Oh god. I was just reading through some of the pages of posts that have poped up while I was asleep and it dawned on me... for the first time ever... I think America has it right and England is all back the front o.o

But seriously, hyperbole aside, that the WBC is allowed to operate in the U.S. and would see its members swiftly thrown in prison under this British law, makes me rather sad.

More and more people seem to be happy to file speech they dislike under the 'hate speech' folder and send folks off to jail without a care. I think we have become TOO comfortable; we have decided our way is right and anyone who disagrees with us can just be locked away because "I won't want to hear their incorrect hate speech."

I don't like where this is going and suddenly find myself a great deal less liking of England.

I find myself thinking the opposite; that the United States may be in the wrong on this, and the UK might have the right idea.

Free speech is beautiful notion, and one of the most fundamental rights in any decent government, but how free should free speech be? It is very easy to quote that famous line from Voltaire and say that that is the last word, but in reality it's rarely that simple. Almost every nation that has free speech places limits on it. The US Constitution's Bill of Rights protects the right to bear arms and the right to assembly, but if a group of people were to arm themselves and assemble in order to prepare an organized assassination attempt against the president, then the bill of rights most certainly wouldn't protect them. Why? Because such an action would represent a threat to the safety and security of the state.

Speech that seeks to undermine the fundamental rights and freedoms of a part of the population (gays, for example) is just as much a threat to the state as an attempt on the president's life. Many European nations have laws against affiliating oneself with the Nazis or Neo-Nazi movements, and laws against Nazi propaganda. Some of them criminalize holocaust denial. It is easy for Americans to censure such things without thought or context, insisting that a person ought to be able to express his ideas freely no matter how hateful those ideas are.

But why? Why protect them? Is there anything to be gained by allowing those who have no respect for the spirit of the bill of rights to seek sanctuary behind it while they spew venom with every word, while they intentionally ostracize and paralyze others with fear, intimidate them into silence? Hate speech is not merely "mean words", and any people who must live in fear are living under oppression, perhaps less visible but no less real than a system of slavery.

Freedom of speech and expression, in my estimation, are meant for those who respect freedom in all its forms and for all people, not for those who would utilize their own freedoms to repress those of others.