England Jails Homophobes

[Steve the Pocket]

At the end of the day, these guys didn't actually incite violence and they weren't convicted if that; they were convicted of spreading hate. I think that's pretty fucked up. I have no doubt at all that spreading hatred against neo-nazis and the KKK would be unpunished. It's 'okay' to hate them, it seems.

That's kind of a moot point since in a country where hate speech is illegal, neo-nazi organizations and the KKK wouldn't even be allowed to exist.

This is good. I wish we would do this to all the Christian ministers speaking out about gay marriage proposals, as a straight man speaking, they can all go F*** themselves with their 2000 year old out of date bull**** Besides they talk of Agape and love to all people, then why the hell do they think they have the right to judge other people.

Wouldn't it make sense to actually legalize gay marriage before jailing everyone who opposes it? Seems kind of ridiculous to make it illegal to speak out about a law that's not even on the books yet.

 

[sageoftruth]

Annnnnnnd Here is where the police in England get a bunch of protests and say they are sorry to offend the Muslim community

Hopefully, before that happens they'll realize what a disgrace these guys are to the Muslim community. I think the guys in jail should be apologizing instead.

 

[Texas Joker 52]

Personally, I am glad for this. I cannot stand people who discriminate against any group of people, due to religion, culture, or even something which I see as trivial as sexual orientation. Okay, so they're gay. So what? Here, they would be entitled to the pursuit of happiness same as anyone else.

Really, I don't think theres a place for this kind of bullshit anymore. Racism and Homophobia need to stop, though I can't see that happening anytime soon. The world needs to realize that people as a whole, generally suck regardless of culture, sexual orientation, skin color and so on. Its when you take a person, a singular person, on their own merits, thats when you should decide if you dislike them or not. Unless they have done something to offend you or put you off personally, such as being an idiot or a hateful asshole, then leave them alone. They're just doing their own thing, like you are. Every community has this, even the Gaming community, and again, it needs to stop.

And for those equating gay people to pedophiles and rapists, are WRONG. There is a huge difference between homosexuals, and convicted child molesters/rapists. As some have already obviously pointed out, one group, the rapists and molesters, have committed a crime, whereas homosexuals haven't. Not only that, but one of the most heinous crimes known to man: Under the right circumstances, theft can be justified. Under the right circumstances, even murder can be justified. But under no circumstances can rape or child molestation be justified.

So yes, while I support the right to make personal choices like that, I do not support hate-speech like that, or discrimination. Freedom of Speech should only go so far, hate-speech such as this, that calls for the deaths of a group simply because of the choices they make in life, yes, should be imprisoned. And to go further, yes, I think that convicted rapists and child molesters, those who without a doubt committed that crime, should be given the death penalty for it. The crime is harsh and brutal. I see no reason why something like that, that cannot be justified regardless of circumstances, shouldn't have an equally harsh punishment.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

Try reading the article, jackass. The pamphlet said: "'Allah permits the destruction' of gay people and that 'the only question is how it should be carried out'". How in the holy hell is that 'proposing a change in the legal system'? Idiot.

Because you didn't read closely enough and also didn't do your research. This story broke a while before and has been discussed at length.

Reread the article, it's about death penalty and opposing decriminalization.

"Method" refers to "method of execution", so stoning, hanging, etc. Not that normal civilians should perform it.

That is idiotic, they were proposing a change in the legal system. No matter how horrific and stupid the change they proposed was, they still should have a right to speak unless it reaches the point of actual conspiracy (in otherwise, they start planning the time and place specifics of committing a crime against a person).

I want a source of that. The linked article never mentioned that they wanted to change something in the legal system.

"The first, entitled 'Death penalty?' proclaimed that 'Allah permits the destruction' of gay people and that 'the only question is how it should be carried out'."

Is the closest I can find but this is not wanting a change in the legal system. This is "ignoring the legal system" and going by the religious interpretations from some nutjobs.

You might wanna read the article in the OP more closely.

The first, entitled 'Death penalty?' proclaimed that 'Allah permits the destruction' of gay people and that 'the only question is how it should be carried out'. The second, entitled 'Turn or Burn', featured a burning figure in a blazing lake of fire and warned that the decriminalization of homosexuality was 'the root of all problems'.

The leaflets talk explicitly about decriminalization and capital punishment, the first one is entitled "death penalty", and "how it should be carried out" refers not to who should do it, since death penalty presumes government authorities. Instead it's discussing the methods to be used.

regardless, this goes a bit more into the specifics, the actual pamphlet doesn't seem to be online.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/god-abhors-you-uk-muslims-convicted-for-distributing-pamphlets-advocating-the-murder-of-gays/

Free Speech ends when infringes on the basic human rights of another Person.

That is all that needs to be said. It is not a Free Speech Issue. They have asked, regardless of form, to be allowed, either legally, or if failing that, to simply illegaly kill a undetermined Number of People for their way of life.

There is no "fine line" in there.

No they're asking the government to change the law so it kills us.

There's a difference.

 

[putowtin]

hurrah! this country finally did something right!

 

[sageoftruth]

Just a thought, but suppose they got a "cease and desist" order by the government and were asked to take down their website under penalty of imprisonment. They probably wouldn't listen, but it would seem a bit fairer than simply showing up without warning and arresting them. Perhaps we just need more details. Anyone know a news article where this is being posted?

 

[Something Amyss]

This is good. I wish we would do this to all the Christian ministers speaking out about gay marriage proposals, as a straight man speaking, they can all go F*** themselves with their 2000 year old out of date bull**** Besides they talk of Agape and love to all people, then why the hell do they think they have the right to judge other people.

As someone who is both bisexual and transgendered, I do not wish to see people jailed for speaking out against gay marriage.

What they did here, with these guys saying gays should be hanged, that is a different offense.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

This is good. I wish we would do this to all the Christian ministers speaking out about gay marriage proposals, as a straight man speaking, they can all go F*** themselves with their 2000 year old out of date bull**** Besides they talk of Agape and love to all people, then why the hell do they think they have the right to judge other people.

As someone who is both bisexual and transgendered, I do not wish to see people jailed for speaking out against gay marriage.

What they did here, with these guys saying gays should be hanged, that is a different offense.

Yes, but they're not saying that private citizens should go out and hang them, they're saying the government should change it's policies and go out and hang us.

For obvious reasons I'm not a fan of this point of view, but it should be their right in a free society to petition for a change in the law.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

Wishing death on someone for whatever reason is a view best kept to yourself. I support freedom of speech, and that includes negative views on homosexuals, but asking (nay, telling) them to be killed is not something that can be tolerated in a modern, civil country.

If you really look at it, there is a, in my opinion, strong argument to not jail them over this. If they were inciting people to murder gay people, they need to be removed from society. But in this case they seem to have been campaigning for gay people to be executed under the law, and that would be as defensible as campaigning for, say, rapists to be executed.

The guys are wankers, of that I have no doubt, lol. But I'm not too keen on going down a road of "don't upset people".

There's a difference between free speech and death threats. If someone mailed me with a letter saying I was going to be murdered because I was white or something, I wouldn't shrug it off as 'freedom of speech'.

But this wasn't a death threat, this was a petition for change in laws. Granted the change they wanted was abhorrent, but that shouldn't change the legal nature of the petition itself.

 

[aba1]

I was expecting just "someone said they didn't approve of a gay person and they were hauled off by cops" and was all prepared with a "this is over-reacting" speech but this?

Yeah, I'm fully okay with these hateful pricks being in jail. You can't just call for a group of people to be violently murdered and expect to not catch shit for saying that openly and in public.

I'm actually not sure how okay with it I am. Obviously these guys are massive assholes, but they were campaigning for gay people to be legally executed, not for them to be murdered in the streets--the latter of which is inciting violence, the former more... a dick move, lol.

I don't care that they are in jail per se, but I dunno if it oversteps the boundaries a little.

I kinda agree with you but at the same time they could potentially be hit for premeditation for murder since they were planning to get people killed. I dunno but I know what you mean it is a slippery slope.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

Wishing death on someone for whatever reason is a view best kept to yourself. I support freedom of speech, and that includes negative views on homosexuals, but asking (nay, telling) them to be killed is not something that can be tolerated in a modern, civil country.

If you really look at it, there is a, in my opinion, strong argument to not jail them over this. If they were inciting people to murder gay people, they need to be removed from society. But in this case they seem to have been campaigning for gay people to be executed under the law, and that would be as defensible as campaigning for, say, rapists to be executed.

The guys are wankers, of that I have no doubt, lol. But I'm not too keen on going down a road of "don't upset people".

There's a difference between free speech and death threats. If someone mailed me with a letter saying I was going to be murdered because I was white or something, I wouldn't shrug it off as 'freedom of speech'.

But this wasn't a death threat, this was a petition for change in laws. Granted the change they wanted was abhorrent, but that shouldn't change the legal nature of the petition itself.

During the trial, the court heard how the group's activities intimidated residents and left gay people frightened to walk on the streets.

Something about the wording of that sentence makes me think it was a little more than just 'campaigning'.

If people were shouting "gay people deserve to be stoned, petition the government to execute them" would you feel comfortable around them?

Does it make it any less petitioning the government for a change in the law?

I wouldn't wanna be there, but as long as they don't actually attempt to attack me or plan an explicit attack on me, it should be perfectly legal.

 

[KeyMaster45]

I love the picture of the guy on the far left. He's got a look like "I gotta stop agreeing to shit while I'm drunk."

Guy the middle has a face that says "So everyone's straight in prison right?", and you can almost hear the cops snickering as they say "Sure dude, straight as Elton John in some cases"

Guy on the far right reminds me alot of Aziz Ansari's character "Ed" from Scrubs. Just kind of has a "Sup bitches?" look on his face.

 

[TitanAtlas]

i expect "4 lions" joke somewhere around here xD

 

[orangeban]

What these men were doing was creating a hostile and hateful enviroment in their neighbourhood, making gay people intensely uncomfortable, attempting to incite hatred, intimidating gay people and generally making the world a worse place.

In this country at least, freedom of speech doesn't give you the freedom to do any of that shit.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Free Speech does not protect you from consequences. Time people start to learn that. There are laws against "hate speech" or "incitement to crime" in about every country which values human rights.

So much this.

These guys were not meekly trying to change a law, they were intimidating and calling for the hanging, stoning and burning of people on the basis they didnt agree with their sex life.
That. Is. Not. Okay.

The convicted people have a right to propose a law.

 

[Melon Hunter]

[This is why, unlike France, we allow multiculturalism and don't pass laws banning the hijab, because the British way is to tolerate differences.

"Our way is to tolerate differences, which is why we throw people we disagree with in jail."

First off, let me say that I'm a gay gay gay as balls gayster so I know what intimidation, prejudice, and outright physical violence feels like. I live in Idaho, which, in case you don't know, is the single most conservative state in America. Over a third of the Neo-Nazis in the entire country live here.

With that said, it is absurd to say that these people should go to jail. I think they're scumbags, but I don't see why the government has any right at all to decide what people can and can't say. So long as gay people are allowed to put out flyers demanding the death penalty for homophobia, then there's no problem here. Feeling attacked or hated is part of living in a free society; I get abused fairly often by white trash strangers and if someone from the fed came down and asked me whether or not I wanted to have a police escort throw them all in jail, I would say no in a heartbeat. So long as they aren't advocating non-judicial murder, it shouldn't be a crime. If I get to say what I want to say, then so should they.

Two mistakes. Firstly, as I pointed out in my original post, you are looking at this through the prism of the US Constitution, and the First Amendment. So there's half your answer; unlike America, Britain recognises the damage unlimited free speech can cause and has laws in place to deal with that. This is nothing short of culture shock.

Secondly, fighting intolerance is not inherently intolerant, which makes this:

"Our way is to tolerate differences, which is why we throw people we disagree with in jail."

utterly wrong. We tolerate differences, hence there are laws to stop intolerant speech getting out of control. These men were jailed not for being homophobes, but for encouraging behaviour and prejudices that were dangerous to society. I'm all for Far Right groups being allowed a platform, as it enables more sensible political parties to make them look absurd. However, the rights of the individual stop at the next person. If you've used your free speech to intimidate and/or oppress someone else, as these men have, then there will be repercussions for that.

If you honestly think this Government put laws in place to stop people espousing views they don't like, then you really have no idea what you're talking about. These laws are here to stop the expression of views that are utterly incompatible with a democratic society, such as calling for the execution of gays. That is aiding tolerance, not oppressing it.

 

[suitepee7]

horayyy, people got what they deserved

 

[ElPatron]

Am I the only one who has thought "why haven't we arrested Christians who have tried to pass similar legislation?".

Anyone who makes ANYONE ELSES community feel like this should be sent to jail.
PERIOD.

Now that brings a dilemma.

I tend to avoid groups of black people dressed like gangsters and with clothes baggy enough to hide sawn-off shotguns. Does that mean that every black man in a hoodie must be jailed?

What you said is reasonable because there was an active threat (or that's what I got from the post) but if implemented it would be extremely unfair. Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[ElPatron]

Am I the only one who has thought "why haven't we arrested Christians who have tried to pass similar legislation?".

Anyone who makes ANYONE ELSES community feel like this should be sent to jail.
PERIOD.

Now that brings a dilemma.

I tend to avoid groups of black people dressed like gangsters and with clothes baggy enough to hide sawn-off shotguns. Does that mean that every black man in a hoodie must be jailed?

What you said is reasonable because there was an active threat (or that's what I got from the post) but if implemented it would be extremely unfair. Innocent until proven guilty.