English Defence League

[Wadders]

I know I'm a bit late to the party with this one, but I was wondering what everyone thought of these guys. They profess to be a non-racist community protesting against the dangers of extremist Islam in the UK, but are accused of being Nazis, having ties with very right wing groups and football hooligans, amongst other unsavory organizations.

To me, they seem to have a legitimate concern, but maybe they are not presenting it in the right way. Either way, they are getting attention, which is what they want I guess.

So, do you lovely lads and lasses have any thoughts on the matter? Are they just racist yobs who try to present an acceptable, articulate front, or is everyone just getting upset because young white males are having a say about something that they feel threatens their way of life?

Some BBC articles:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8261027.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8298437.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8262337.stm

 

[Sulu]

or is everyone just getting upset because young white males are having a say about something that they feel threatens their way of life?

This.

They get a bad press just because they don't want muslim extremists in England. Which is fair enough! I don't want those extremists near me either.

There was a counter rally against them by some group called 'united against facism' or who I like to call 'extremist lovers' and 'pro 9/11 7/7'. They were calling the EDF racist for wanting these scum who plant bombs to get out the country. So in fact the UAF are pro terrorism in that respect. It should be the UAF who get labled as racist because they are saying its wrong to hate religious extremists and its okay to bomb innocent civilians.

EDF = good!

 

[Wadders]

or is everyone just getting upset because young white males are having a say about something that they feel threatens their way of life?

This.

They get a bad press just because they don't want muslim extremists in England. Which is fair enough! I don't want those extremists near me either.

There was a counter rally against them by some group called 'united against facism' or who I like to call 'extremist lovers' and 'pro 9/11 7/7'. They were calling the EDF racist for wanting these scum who plant bombs to get out the country. So in fact the UAF are pro terrorism in that respect. It should be the UAF who get labled as racist because they are saying its wrong to hate religious extremists and its okay to bomb innocent civilians.

EDF = good!

YAY! a reply! Was afraid it would just be me and the tumbleweeds here all day...

Anyways, I agree, their message is a good one, no one wants potentially dangerous extremists in their country, but i cant help but wonder if some members may join for reasons not originally intended by the founders.

I agree with the group's stance, but it shouldn't become just another group of racist malcontents hiding behind pretensions of decency. We already have enough of them. *glares at BNP*

 

[Florion]

Why are there no controversial groups trying to defend people against the dangers of Christian extremists?

 

[Shock and Awe]

They seem alright, far left groups always like to label anyone who doesn't think like they do as "Facist" and "Nazi".

 

[Skeleon]

Never heard of them before, so I can't really judge, but...

Why are there no controversial groups trying to defend people against the dangers of Christian extremists?

...what this guy said.
If anything, we need more "separatist" movements (I'm aware that's not the proper use of the word, I mean it as in "separate state and religion and keep them separated") than ones against specific religions.
Sure, I'm opposed to Muslim terrorists but I'm not opposed to Muslims.
I'm opposed to Christian terrorists as well but not to Christians in general.

 

[Lusty]

They're singling out Islamic extremists, which I find ironic given the sheer amount of terrorist activity in the UK that traces it's roots back to Christian extremism.

In the video on your second link there's a lot of talk about Islam taking over the UK, Britain being a Christian country, stopping Christmas etc. Once you scratch the surface of their arguments you start to see the same old racist arguments.

 

[Amnestic]

They seem alright, far right groups always like to label anyone who doesn't think like they do as "Communist" and "Libtards".

Just sayin'

 

[Godavari]

1) Hating Islam isn't racist, it's religionist. If they just hated Arabs in general it would be different, but not all Arabs are Muslims.
2) I think that, even though they have a lot of bad press, they're for a good cause. I live in America, but I've heard a lot about how "Muslims are invading Europe." I support a more hardline stance that says "these are the morals we believe in in this country. If you don't agree with them, either stay away or convert." There's no reason to give Muslims special treatment just because they come from a backwards culture.

 

[random457376]

People should always be allowed to protest whatever it is they want.

Unfortunately, when you are opposing a specific subset (especially a religious one), people start to begin labelling things like 'Fascist' and 'Nazi' and other words that are rank with ill-repute pretty quickly. This is a modern reaction spawned from our newfound fear of being politically incorrect and the support it can lose you - that everyone is taught to capitalize on this has become such a big issue and often it is not being used as a defensive weapon as much as an offensive one that allows people an unfair advantage.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, but I do think people take it to extremes and there are cases of unfair and fair uses of calling someone out on persecution. With all sorts of religious, racial, and sexuality groups taking the stage nowadays it has become a big phenomenom.

As for these guys .. There's probably some genuine islamic-hates in the one party, and some genuine extremists in the other. Sure, the well-meaning people in each are okay (though some of them may have just jumped on the bandwagon), but I'd probably need to know more about each bunch to make a judgement call. Or y'know, see which one slips up first and goes too far.

 

[Booze Zombie]

I really think they should rally against extremists in general if they're not actually playing the race card here...

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

1) Hating Islam isn't racist, it's religionist. If they just hated Arabs in general it would be different, but not all Arabs are Muslims.
2) I think that, even though they have a lot of bad press, they're for a good cause. I live in America, but I've heard a lot about how "Muslims are invading Europe." I support a more hardline stance that says "these are the morals we believe in in this country. If you don't agree with them, either stay away or convert." There's no reason to give Muslims special treatment just because they come from a backwards culture.

This. Political incorrectness nowadays boils down to finding which culture is the most backwards and degrading and giving extra special rights so none of the other kids pick on it in the schoolyard because someone pointed out that its backwards and degrading.

 

[Wadders]

Why are there no controversial groups trying to defend people against the dangers of Christian extremists?

haha, fair point!

They seem alright, far left groups always like to label anyone who doesn't think like they do as "Facist" and "Nazi".

Yeah I was kinda surprised at the savagery in the voices of the "United Against Fascism" members when they were screaming "nazi scum" at the EDL chaps.

 

[Skeleon]

There's no reason to give Muslims special treatment just because they come from a backwards culture.

Do you know any Muslims?
I know plenty of Turkish Muslims who grew up in Germany as perfectly normal people. They go to a Mosque instead of a Church and they tend to eat less pork than I do. And that's about it.
It's all about upbringing.
This crap about Muslims invading Europe is populist bullshit spouted by right-wingers who want to garner cheap votes through fear.

Reckon the fact that Christian extremists haven't blown the shit out of people on tubes in recent years might just have something to do with it though...

I guess people like Doctor Tiller and other workers at abortion clinics don't count?
Muslims don't have the monopoly on religiously motivated murders and bombings.

 

[siege_1302]

It seems to me that the EDF does have a good point in wanting to keep Britain free of islamic terrorism, though they really would get a better press if it was all terrorism. It does sound a bit racist if you force in the 'islamic' part, and a bit Captain Obvious if you leave it out. Plus, I thought fighting terrorism was MI5's job.

There's no reason to give Muslims special treatment just because they come from a backwards culture.

Ouch. Reading that made me wince. Something about it that just sticks in my liberal craw.

 

[Actual]

A Brit here, I don't have any problem with them in theory.

Peacefully protesting against extremism sounds reasonable. And at the moment it's Islamic extremism which is of foremost concern. The gents running it will have to be very careful though or it will turn into a hategroup, the issue is too tense not to attract the worst elements of both sides, and if they recruit from football firms they're drawing from a bad lot to start with.

Like all immigrants Muslims are having a hard time integrating themselves into our culture, this is pronounced in this case due to recent world events and the often particularly rigid nature of their beliefs before coming to England. The social segregation seems to be making it even worse.

 

[Danny Ocean]

1) Hating Islam isn't racist, it's religionist.

Is it though? Organised religion is just a mix of someone's opinion on how you should live your life, and routine. Both of these things are a matter of opinion, right?
Surely then, it's O.K. to hate a religion, when you observe it as a group of opinions- a mindset. It's when you start hating those who follow it that it becomes a bad thing, right?

Just a thought. I have a few friends who consider hatred of a religion as some kind of a bad thing, but surely it's not as bad as hatred for, say, communism or fascism. As long as people understand what they're hating, and they ensure that their ire is directed towards the words, not the people, it's ok. Right?

Is it really worthy of being labelled with an -ism, if it's just abhorrence of an abstract concept. There are many scientists who hate string theory, calling it variants of 'A crock-a-shit', but that doesn't make them theory-ist, they're not discriminating because of prejudice, they're discerning because of justified opinions.

Although this is all very vague and subjective, do you get what I'm getting at?

I'm happy to have anyone, any race, any opinion in the U.K., just so long as they don't harm anyone, and understand that they are moving into a different culture with different laws. They shouldn't try to make it mimic their previous lands. Wasn't there a case a while ago of shariah law having its own court in the UK?

 

[feversk]

Remember that even if a party is not officially racist, individual members could potentially be... I'm not saying this is the case with EDL, though.

I support their stance against religious extremism. But why only muslims...?

 

[Wadders]

In the video on your second link there's a lot of talk about Islam taking over the UK, Britain being a Christian country, stopping Christmas etc. Once you scratch the surface of their arguments you start to see the same old racist arguments.

Hmm yeah, I see your point. I think the original intention is a good one, but like I said the another guy a few posts up, people will join for reasons of racism just because they can hide their views behind a (fairly) socially acceptable front.

I really think they should rally against extremists in general if they're not actually playing the race card here...

True, but kinda hard. People can be extremist about virtually anything. It's easier to focus on a specific group, and that group is Muslim extremists because they are the ones who are perceived to be the biggest threat to national security or whatever.

1) Hating Islam isn't racist, it's religionist. If they just hated Arabs in general it would be different, but not all Arabs are Muslims.
2) I think that, even though they have a lot of bad press, they're for a good cause. I live in America, but I've heard a lot about how "Muslims are invading Europe." I support a more hardline stance that says "these are the morals we believe in in this country. If you don't agree with them, either stay away or convert." There's no reason to give Muslims special treatment just because they come from a backwards culture.

Woah. Muslims invading Europe? Backwards culture? I dont think normal people have a problem with your average everyday Joe Muslim, its just the hardline ones who wanna fuck shit up. I'm quite happy to have Muslims in the UK (not that I have a say in the matter anyway) as long as they work and practice their religion in peace. As for it being a backards culture, again, it's just the hardcore ones who follow all that nonsense. I'm sure the vast majority find it just as abhorrent as everybody else...

 

[Wadders]

Remember that even if a party is not officially racist, individual members could potentially be... I'm not saying this is the case with EDL, though.

I support their stance against religious extremism. But why only muslims...?

Because of the whole terrorist thing maybe? Bombs on tube etc. Now that things in Ireland are (relatively) peaceful, its only really extremist Muslims wanting to blow shit up. Well maybe not only them, but they seem to be the main ones...