Does Reggie really have any pull beyond being head sales man of Nintendo America though?AzrealMaximillion said:
From what I can tell the head branch over in Japan barks and he follows. I doubt he has much power to destroy anything.
Enough with 'Nintendo is doomed'
- Thread starter Matthew Jabour
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From what I can tell the head branch over in Japan barks and he follows. I doubt he has much power to destroy anything.
Umm... while I agree with the title of the thread, your reasoning and examples are horrible. And really hurt your case. I wish someone else had made this thread, frankly.
Oh my god. I specifically made it clear that I was adressing a small, extraneous group of people who claim that Nintendo should die. If you're not in this group, then why the hell would you take offense from that? If I said that I hated everyone who likes broccoli, but you don't like broccoli, would you take offense from that, too?AzrealMaximillion said:
And furthermore, I never said that Nintendo Land should make up for the company's bad decisions. I was implying that if you played it with a friend, you would find it fun. And that you'd enjoy it. And that would show that Nintendo deserves to live - which, again, is not necessary in your case, because I still wasn't referring to you!
Is Nintendo going to die? No. For some reasons the Nintendnuts seem to think that any question or criticism of Nintendo is heralding the companies doom, and is made by haters of some sort. Nintendo has massive cash reserves and can probably ride this one out to some degree. But they would be complete and utter fools if they do not start re-evaluating some key parts of their company and business model. The WiiU is a flop of rather epic proportions. The 3dS recovered from a flop and is now thriving. Now granted these are entirely differing circumstances. The 3dS's initial failure still drove money into Nintendo's pocket as the primary and pretty much only competition was Nintendo's own product. The WiiU is a whole differing ball of wax.
Nintendo does need to be having some serious conversations with themselves, and ask some tough questions.
- Given the WiiU's failure is a dedicated console worth the costs and risks when the companies primary value lies in its IP?
- Does continuing to use a walled garden dedicated in house console mechanism for delivering Nintendo's IP does the company risk devaluing said IP or failing to properly generate a return on it?
- What is the best path going forward in the set top console market? What are the long term projections for said market? What are the risks for another console? What would failure of said look like or mean to the company?
- How long can Nintendo afford to effectively keep its primary IP's restricted to so small a console user base? Are their alternatives? Would diversification of platform be a better short term option? What harm or benefit long term?
- The 3dS is the dominant handheld today. But the scary elephant in the room are mobile devices. Phones and tablets. What does that market space look like in 18 months? 36? What is the path going forward there as well.
In short has Nintendo reached the point where it's proprietary hardware model does more harm to its core business than good? At the moment Nintendo has a huge advantage here. Unlike prior video game manufacturers and software IP houses that arrived at this point in hours of desperation, namely Sega and Atari, Nintendo arrives at these questions from a position of relative strength. While their core console tanked, they still dominate handhelds for today. They have huge software IP's (even if they dont currently have a large enough user base to profit from them) and they have deep cash reserves. So they have time and flexibility to re-evaluate and reinvent themselves for the changing market. Creative Destruction at work. Yes Nintendo will survive this. But it certainly will not be business as usual. It will be Nintendo with some major changes to approach and business model. If they attempt to maintain the course as they have been they will shrink and die. The WiiU is not simply a hardware failure. It is a warning sign that the industry is changing. Evolve or Die.
Nintendo does need to be having some serious conversations with themselves, and ask some tough questions.
- Given the WiiU's failure is a dedicated console worth the costs and risks when the companies primary value lies in its IP?
- Does continuing to use a walled garden dedicated in house console mechanism for delivering Nintendo's IP does the company risk devaluing said IP or failing to properly generate a return on it?
- What is the best path going forward in the set top console market? What are the long term projections for said market? What are the risks for another console? What would failure of said look like or mean to the company?
- How long can Nintendo afford to effectively keep its primary IP's restricted to so small a console user base? Are their alternatives? Would diversification of platform be a better short term option? What harm or benefit long term?
- The 3dS is the dominant handheld today. But the scary elephant in the room are mobile devices. Phones and tablets. What does that market space look like in 18 months? 36? What is the path going forward there as well.
In short has Nintendo reached the point where it's proprietary hardware model does more harm to its core business than good? At the moment Nintendo has a huge advantage here. Unlike prior video game manufacturers and software IP houses that arrived at this point in hours of desperation, namely Sega and Atari, Nintendo arrives at these questions from a position of relative strength. While their core console tanked, they still dominate handhelds for today. They have huge software IP's (even if they dont currently have a large enough user base to profit from them) and they have deep cash reserves. So they have time and flexibility to re-evaluate and reinvent themselves for the changing market. Creative Destruction at work. Yes Nintendo will survive this. But it certainly will not be business as usual. It will be Nintendo with some major changes to approach and business model. If they attempt to maintain the course as they have been they will shrink and die. The WiiU is not simply a hardware failure. It is a warning sign that the industry is changing. Evolve or Die.
That's an awful lot of words for such a small piece of quote. Put the words "at this rate" at the end of the statement you've quoted and I think it's easier to leave alone. I think Jabour meant to imply that anyway (if he says that no, he really meant forever, then never mind).NoeL said:Matthew Jabour said:
Seriously? "Always has", sure I guess, but "always will"? That's just blatant fanboism (well, the whole OP was that, but this part in particular was the worst). Yes, the 3DS is selling well, and yes past Nintendo handhelds have also sold very well. But you can't extrapolate that into the future - especially in a market as dynamic as technology. The future of dedicated handheld gaming devices isn't as clear at it was a decade ago. There's a been a lot of speculation about phones and tablets knocking handhelds out of the market, and while I don't think it has/will be as big of a whitewash as predicted (there's clearly still a market for what they're offering) I do think we'll eventually see that shift.
Anyway, no of course Nintendo won't die, yes they're still very financially solid despite reporting losses the last few years, and if/when Nintendo pulls their finger out and starts using that solid financial base to move the Wii U I think it will eventually be a decently selling system. They just need to, first and foremost, MARKET the damn thing! Secondly, and almost as importantly, they need to "encourage" third parties to develop for it. Forget about trying to court Western publishers like EA or Activision - the Wii U doesn't have the horsepower to match their focus, they're not interested and won't be until the system gets a wider install base (and then they'll still only put out garbage like they did on the Wii, so fuck them). They've got a ton of (mostly Eastern) affiliates publishing for the 3DS - that's where they need to throw their money. Nail down some exclusive JRPGs, shooters (vertical/horizontal shooters, not first person shooters) and dating sims to at least make it attractive in Japan, then bring those games to the West. It'll be a niche system but it'll at least be SOMETHING. At the moment it's a stagnant NOTHING. The Sega Saturn is fondly remembered for having great shooters that never made it to the West, the SNES was praised for its JRPGs, and while those niches might not have been the money makers for those systems in the West the Wii U is going nowhere if they try to appeal to Western audiences with sports and military shooters and everything else that drives Western sales. The Xbone and PS4 have that market cornered and Nintendo is wasting their time there. Focus on something niche, something the big boys aren't offering and you'll find a market - even if it's a smaller market.
I'm afraid I must stop you there, good sir. You seem to have set up a strawman.EvilRoy said:
Nintendo has indeed lost a great deal of money. You'd have to dig out your frontal lobe with an ice cream scoop to not see that. But a company cannot go bankrupt until their expenses outweigh their assets, which is hard to do when your stock price is increasing.
Of course, this was the argument to counter claims that Nintendo was going the way of Sega, a claim you do not appear to champion. So I appreciate your contribution, but you seem to be getting riled up over nothing.
Well, we lost j-e-f-f-e-r-s, and that guy pretty much THE NDF around here. Though the recent topic of Nintendoomed popped up due to last week's Nintendo articles both on the Escapist and on other gaming sites.EvilRoy said:
OT: I think I've already said enough on this topic, though.
Well I think we have found this months popular thread topic. Beats the same old rehash of the sexism threads though I guess.
As for Nintendo well I don't think they are going anywhere soon but they really need to get their shit together and change their business plans, a massive loss when predicting a profit should be wake up call for any company big or small, it means the current plan is not working.
Also a new IP or two wouldn't hurt, seriously Nintendo there are only so many times you can play on the nostalgia of peoples childhood to sell them basically the same game over and over.
As for Nintendo well I don't think they are going anywhere soon but they really need to get their shit together and change their business plans, a massive loss when predicting a profit should be wake up call for any company big or small, it means the current plan is not working.
Also a new IP or two wouldn't hurt, seriously Nintendo there are only so many times you can play on the nostalgia of peoples childhood to sell them basically the same game over and over.
Nintendo land is fun. Pick it up, play it with some friends, and tell me you don't have a good time.Arqus_Zed said:
Also, I agree with most of your points. I value the fact that we have three companies to compete with one another. What grinds my gears is that some people automatically discard Nintendo from the competition, as if the mere affront of doing something different excludes them right from the start.
Oh, so just because I champion the house of Mario, I should be lumped in with them? My post pretty much says, to the letter, that Nintendo WILL be sticking around for a long time, exactly what you said no Nintendo threads ever do.josemlopes said:
I agree that they need new IP's but they can't just "Cut their losses" on the WiiU. First of all they would lose more money by abandoning it than they are with its poor sales. Secondly just because they need new IPs does not mean at all mean it would be a good idea to stop relying on Mario and Zelda. The reason they keep using them is because they're their bestselling series. It would be idiotic to suddenly halt production on them when it's still making them money.stroopwafel said:
What would be GREAT is if they put Gamecube games on the WiiU virtual console. That by itself would be a pretty good reason to get the WiiU now that Gamestop doesn't sell Gamecube games anymore. and finally they could have a subscription service like Microsoft and Sony have. Not for online mind you. Not many people would pay for Nintendo Wi-Fi. I mean the 1 or 2 free games a month deal that Microsoft and Sony have going on. They certainly have enough of a log of games to do it and charging say 30 or 40 dollars a year for a service like that would be a great deal and not cause Nintendo very much in losses even if it DIDN'T catch on considering that they wouldn't have to pay much out of pocket to do it.
I don't think Nintendo is by any means "doomed", but I think the Wii-U is in serious trouble. And, maybe worse- I find it hard to imagine Nintendo making the kind of console that would compete this generation, even if they completely scrapped the Wii-U and started from scratch. They did a magnificent job making the Wii into the "Hey, anyone can play" console of its generation, despite less powerful hardware, but there doesn't seem to be a similar niche to fill this generation. The Gamepad doesn't have the immediate visceral appeal of the Wii-mote, and Nintendo has done a poor job indicating why anyone should want it, either on an advertising level or a use-in-game level. In many games, it's obtrustive; in those where it isn't, the touch gestures often seem a clunky implementation of something that a player would be better off using a non-misinterpretable controller input to activate. And the "you can play on the Gamepad even while someone is using the television for something else" feature seems downright counter-intuitive to one of the Wii's greatest strengths: getting a bunch of people together in front of the TV to engage in a shared, fun activity.
So Nintendo seems unwilling to spar for the mantle of most powerful hardware, has never entirely grasped the intricacies of online multiplayer, isn't a target of choice for "indie" developers, and its most recent gimmick has failed to grab attention. People who just want to play party games or music games still have their Wiis and don't have obvious reasons to upgrade for prettier graphics. Where does Nintendo go from there? The one thing I could semi-seriously imagine reinvigorating their console presence is adopting Occulus Rift technology in a big way, but it would probably just bring back unpleasant memories of the Virtual Boy. Not to mention that for all the enthusiasm some developers show for the OR, it's still largely untested on a market level.
Yes, Nintendo is probably going to continue to dominate the non-phone handheld market for some time to go, and I wish them well with it. But it's a little telling how many of their big titles and their focus have gone to the 3DS this year, forsaking their own console in the process. Not a promising sign.
I want Nintendo to do well; I like the Wii, the DSi, and the 3DS, and I think the console race is better off for having three serious competitors in the ring rather than two, especially given how alike the PS4 and XBOne are on a hardware level. I just don't see an obvious way forward for the company.
So Nintendo seems unwilling to spar for the mantle of most powerful hardware, has never entirely grasped the intricacies of online multiplayer, isn't a target of choice for "indie" developers, and its most recent gimmick has failed to grab attention. People who just want to play party games or music games still have their Wiis and don't have obvious reasons to upgrade for prettier graphics. Where does Nintendo go from there? The one thing I could semi-seriously imagine reinvigorating their console presence is adopting Occulus Rift technology in a big way, but it would probably just bring back unpleasant memories of the Virtual Boy. Not to mention that for all the enthusiasm some developers show for the OR, it's still largely untested on a market level.
Yes, Nintendo is probably going to continue to dominate the non-phone handheld market for some time to go, and I wish them well with it. But it's a little telling how many of their big titles and their focus have gone to the 3DS this year, forsaking their own console in the process. Not a promising sign.
I want Nintendo to do well; I like the Wii, the DSi, and the 3DS, and I think the console race is better off for having three serious competitors in the ring rather than two, especially given how alike the PS4 and XBOne are on a hardware level. I just don't see an obvious way forward for the company.
'The point is, Nintendo is very, very closely mirroring Sega's Saturn to Dreamcast era of the 1990s. Turning their backs on 3rd party support and not having games on launch worth playing on their consoles. If a major 3rd party publisher publically says they'll never make a game for Nintendo again like EA did to SEGA) it could do irreversible damage to Nintendo.'
Really? I'd say Microsoft is the one doing the inevitable 'lets get arrogant' for the third console. Nintendo had theirs with the N64 and Sony with the PS3. The EA-Sega fallout was also more to do with EA's nasty ways than Sega alienating them, demanding they have exclusive rights to make sports games despite Sega having just set up a studio for that exact reason (even more of a kick in the teeth when you remember the genesis/megadrive is what made EA big). Nintendo seems to be stuck in a sort of limbo where their previous console soared so high they don't really have anywhere else to go.
Either way I think this generation is just going to be a bit of a disappointment for everybody. All three consoles have sold well at launch but really there isn't anything at a glance that is radically different from the previous generation. Even the console interfaces have barely changed.
Really? I'd say Microsoft is the one doing the inevitable 'lets get arrogant' for the third console. Nintendo had theirs with the N64 and Sony with the PS3. The EA-Sega fallout was also more to do with EA's nasty ways than Sega alienating them, demanding they have exclusive rights to make sports games despite Sega having just set up a studio for that exact reason (even more of a kick in the teeth when you remember the genesis/megadrive is what made EA big). Nintendo seems to be stuck in a sort of limbo where their previous console soared so high they don't really have anywhere else to go.
Either way I think this generation is just going to be a bit of a disappointment for everybody. All three consoles have sold well at launch but really there isn't anything at a glance that is radically different from the previous generation. Even the console interfaces have barely changed.
Agreed, you want people to stop saying "Nintendo is doomed", don't start a new topic about the opposite because that just leads to people talking about Nintendo being doomed.ShinyCharizard said:
Sure, I get that people are tired of seeing "Nintendo is doomed" type posts because I am sick of Dark Souls being brought up all the damn time but I won't make a thread about it.
On the contrary, my response was directed toward your somewhat bizarre assertion that since Nintendo is doing well relative to Sony, they are in no danger. There are a few reasons why this is false - not the least of which the vastly different corporate structures and levels of diversification - and generally implies a lack of understanding on the issue. Simply put, Sony doing bad does not mean that Nintendo is doing good, and Nintendo doing less bad than Sony is by no means an argument that Nintendo is or will be okay.Matthew Jabour said:
Also noteworthy is the assertion that the NTDOY price is increasing and the company is therefore smooth sailing. The recovery, though good news, is minor and no where near recovering from the loss earlier this month, and if you check again, they have started to dip once more. In fact, you might check what Goldman-Sachs have to say on it, I'm deciding if I should follow their advice.
That is kind of the thing; with the exceptions of the 3DS and the Wii, every system of the last ten years have had very sluggish starts. The 360, the DS, and the PS3 took TWO YEARS to really get moving. It wasn't until the start of their 3rd years that things started moving and when people finally ironed out all the problems. The first two years of a system's life have pretty much turned into unofficial beta periods. Not ideal, but that's how the world worksDevin Norris said:
Epicspoon said:
Nintendo completely lost momentum with the WiiU so at this point in time its highly doubtful that rebranding the console, initiating a new marketing offensive and additional development costs will weigh up against the very unlikely chance it will get the WiiU out of its slump. And even then, when they still had the chance to release a system seller of a game they didn't. Instead they just watched the sales figures of the WiiU detoriate further and further, to the point that even third parties walked away. I don't see Nintendo doing now what they failed to do when they had every opportunity to do so.
I have the impression Nintendo just blindly hoped to catch lightning twice and that the WiiU would emulate the Wii's success without any real effort. They also positioned themselves strangely with the WiiU not totally embracing the 'casual' market(that made the Wii such a success) but also wanting to appeal to the core gamer. Their desire to have a little bit of both resulted in getting neither. The whole system just seems really poorly thought out.
I believe Nintendo's problem is also more structural and that Mario and Zelda continues to make them money isn't really the issue. Neither is really the quality of these games. A Link Between Worlds is probably one of the best games I've played last year and shows the incredible talent that keeps these IPs afloat. However if Nintendo wants to recapture the magic of old they have to diversify and not rely solely on Miyamoto's legacy. Games that adhere to Nintendo's core design philosophies but aren't Mario or Zelda. In the end its all about the games, it is what makes or breaks a system.
I know Miyamoto's face is oily enough to look perpetually in his thirties but surely he earned his retirement by now. Maybe it's just time for some fresh air at Nintendo.