Epic President Dumps On Used Games, Piracy

[Baby Tea]

A bunch of text

So you are 1000% ok with people who are richer than you are trying to take your money? How is THAT not bullshit in itself? You are right that no one is forcing anyone to play a game, but what about peer pressure? All the time, my friends and co-workers are talking about the newest game that came out, and their experiences and adventures in the game. Fallout 3 is a recent example. Now, I have neither played, purchased, or even pirated fallout 3 because I'm not too concerned with it right now. However, if they were all discussing Mass Effect, I'd be interested in joining their conversation. If I followed your suggestion that I don't have to play games, I would not only be depriving myself of playing a good game, but also social interaction. All for what? giving an invisible middle finger to EA. Good idea.

Face it, I would be stupid to NOT pirate a game like that. EA will be a lot more likely to see pirated figures than figures of who didn't buy a game. Also, I would get to play a masterpiece of a game, and I also would get to join in on any inside jokes, memes, and stories of adventures my friends had.

PEER PRESSURE?? That is your argument? That's ridiculous! Are you 13? I've got friends and co-workers who have better apartments, cars, computers, TVs, stereos, movies, and all sorts of crap that I wouldn't mind having. That isn't an excuse in any way or form for me to steal any of those things. I'm sure the judge would be very sympathetic: 'What? Ohhh, all your friends had it so you wanted it too! Sure, no problem! Case Dismissed!' That is completely laughable.

And yeah, I'm ok with rich people TRYING to get my money from me. It's called a business. The beauty about this crazy idea is that I have the CHOICE on whether or not to buy their product (Which you yourself admitted). They aren't sucking the money out of my account.

And yeah you're right. My invisible middle finger, of not buying the product, is WAY more dumb then a bunch of people flat out stealing the product, forcing the hand of companies like this to put the copy protection on the game which is the reason you steal it now! It's this endless loop that sure as shit won't end with the developers and publishers taking off copy protection. Yeah, that's a GREAT protest. I'm sure EA will suddenly say 'Wow, because of our copy protection methods, people are stealing our games! I know! Let's remove copy protection as a sign of good faith! I'm SURE piracy will go down!'

Yeah, right. Great protest. If people didn't steal this stuff to begin with, we'd all be happy and fine. So far, your arguments are:

1) If the product is too shitty to pay full price for, it's ok to steal it rather then wait for the INEVITABLE price drop. - Yeah, wait for the price to come down. If it's so sub par, then you aren't missing out on much are you?

2) I don't like the copy protection! It's a protest to steal it! - Yeah, then the companies put on MORE copy protection for you to protest. See a pattern? Try not buying it instead.

3) But then I miss out on all the inside jokes, memes, and stuff with my friends! Peer pressure man! - This is the dumbest argument for piracy I've ever seen. Your friends have it and you don't? Inside jokes? Judging from the fact that you mentioned co-workers, I assume you aren't 8 years old. So why is this such an issue? Oh, all your friends are saying how awesome the game is? THEN BUY IT! Seriously, that's ridiculous.

 

[Signa]

A bunch of text

So you are 1000% ok with people who are richer than you are trying to take your money? How is THAT not bullshit in itself? You are right that no one is forcing anyone to play a game, but what about peer pressure? All the time, my friends and co-workers are talking about the newest game that came out, and their experiences and adventures in the game. Fallout 3 is a recent example. Now, I have neither played, purchased, or even pirated fallout 3 because I'm not too concerned with it right now. However, if they were all discussing Mass Effect, I'd be interested in joining their conversation. If I followed your suggestion that I don't have to play games, I would not only be depriving myself of playing a good game, but also social interaction. All for what? giving an invisible middle finger to EA. Good idea.

Face it, I would be stupid to NOT pirate a game like that. EA will be a lot more likely to see pirated figures than figures of who didn't buy a game. Also, I would get to play a masterpiece of a game, and I also would get to join in on any inside jokes, memes, and stories of adventures my friends had.

PEER PRESSURE?? That is your argument? That's ridiculous! Are you 13? I've got friends and co-workers who have better apartments, cars, computers, TVs, stereos, movies, and all sorts of crap that I wouldn't mind having. That isn't an excuse in any way or form for me to steal any of those things. I'm sure the judge would be very sympathetic: 'What? Ohhh, all your friends had it so you wanted it too! Sure, no problem! Case Dismissed!' That is completely laughable.

And yeah, I'm ok with rich people TRYING to get my money from me. It's called a business. The beauty about this crazy idea is that I have the CHOICE on whether or not to buy their product (Which you yourself admitted). They aren't sucking the money out of my account.

And yeah you're right. My invisible middle finger, of not buying the product, is WAY more dumb then a bunch of people flat out stealing the product, forcing the hand of companies like this to put the copy protection on the game which is the reason you steal it now! It's this endless loop that sure as shit won't end with the developers and publishers taking off copy protection. Yeah, that's a GREAT protest. I'm sure EA will suddenly say 'Wow, because of our copy protection methods, people are stealing our games! I know! Let's remove copy protection as a sign of good faith! I'm SURE piracy will go down!'

Yeah, right. Great protest. If people didn't steal this stuff to begin with, we'd all be happy and fine. So far, your arguments are:

1) If the product is too shitty to pay full price for, it's ok to steal it rather then wait for the INEVITABLE price drop. - Yeah, wait for the price to come down. If it's so sub par, then you aren't missing out on much are you?

2) I don't like the copy protection! It's a protest to steal it! - Yeah, then the companies put on MORE copy protection for you to protest. See a pattern? Try not buying it instead.

3) But then I miss out on all the inside jokes, memes, and stuff with my friends! Peer pressure man! - This is the dumbest argument for piracy I've ever seen. Your friends have it and you don't? Inside jokes? Judging from the fact that you mentioned co-workers, I assume you aren't 8 years old. So why is this such an issue? Oh, all your friends are saying how awesome the game is? THEN BUY IT! Seriously, that's ridiculous.

OK OK OK, so the peer pressure comment was a little reaching. It doesn't change much though. Regardless of the chicken-and-egg argument about DRM and why its there is irrelevant, it still doesn't curb piracy. In fact, I'm pretty sure it encourages it.


It seems this argument is going absolutely nowhere, you are too close minded sir, and yet you are still throwing the same half-assed argument around just as I am. Face it, I'm a good person. I don't steal. It doesn't matter what YOU call it, but buying things at a reduced cost only means I'm paying what I feel the devs have earned. I'll buy things at full price if I think it's worth it. That is all the matters, no matter how I'm getting the data on my PC in the first place.

Maybe if you weren't calling me full of shit, we could talk on a more civil level, but from your first post is always been "OMG TH33VEZ!!" Until you have fully taken control of your gaming budget as I have, and seen why it is awesome (or not as awesome as I say it is) then maybe you can have your opinion. Otherwise, you just sound like the goody-goody brainwashed consumer buying every word some one with more money says to you.

 

[Baby Tea]

Still, a bunch of text

OK OK OK, so the peer pressure comment was a little reaching. It doesn't change much though. Regardless of the chicken-and-egg argument about DRM and why its there is irrelevant, it still doesn't curb piracy. In fact, I'm pretty sure it encourages it.

Don't you see the loop here, though? People steal product, company tries to stop that, people now steal product under the (Idiotic) guise of a protest, company tries harder to stop the theft, people steal more, ad infinitum. Who do you think will be the first to stop this stupid loop so people can just go back to enjoying games? Developers trying to get money for their product (Which is apparently bad)? Or the people getting a product for free?

It seems this argument is going absolutely nowhere, you are too close minded sir, and yet you are still throwing the same half-assed argument around just as I am. Face it, I'm a good person. I don't steal. It doesn't matter what YOU call it, but buying things at a reduced cost only means I'm paying what I feel the devs have earned. I'll buy things at full price if I think it's worth it. That is all the matters, no matter how I'm getting the data on my PC in the first place.

If I've been throwing half ass arguments, then why haven't you had a good rebuttal? I read your posts, and consider what you've said (typed?), but none of it makes sense OR justifies theft of a product. And YOU face it: Downloading software that you aren't paying for is theft. And even though you CLAIM to be in that rare minority that only downloads games as a 'test' (But why buy the cow if you're getting the milk for free? I find it hard to believe people are that 'noble'), that still means that the vast majority of people who do pirate software do it because they just don't want to pay for it. It's theft.

Maybe if you weren't calling me full of shit, we could talk on a more civil level, but from your first post is always been "OMG TH33VEZ!!" Until you have fully taken control of your gaming budget as I have, and seen why it is awesome (or not as awesome as I say it is) then maybe you can have your opinion. Otherwise, you just sound like the goody-goody brainwashed consumer buying every word some one with more money says to you.

First of all, I never called you full of shit. I may have said your arguments are bullshit, but that doesn't mean you are. I can totally believe that you really think what you're doing is ok. I'm pointing out that it is not.

Secondly: I NEVER use 'leet speak', so don't throw that out there. I may have been a bit abrupt and frank in my posts (Especially my first one), but they've been coherent counter points on a seemingly one-sided debate among gamers who have this delusion that steal is ok as long as the consumer thinks it is. That, not you, is bullshit.

Thirdly: I don't think I fully understand the last part of your post. 'Until I take control of my gaming budget'? Who says I haven't? I barely make enough to support my wife and I (She just HAD to go back to school), so I know exactly where all my money goes. Besides, I can't have an opinion on this subject until I have my gaming budget under control? What does that even mean?

And finally: Never once did I say I buy into some of the crap EA pulls. In fact, if you read my first post, you'd see that I think his bitching about used game sales is very silly, to say the least. What I am offering to this debate (Which is crazy, since I'm apparently so 'close minded') is the ability to UNDERSTAND why companies would be pissed about people stealing their product and why they take the measure they do. Which is a contrast to many other I talk to, who say the crazy argument of 'Well, they aren't losing a customer since I wouldn't have bought the game anyways!' Yeah, well then I'm going to go steal food from a grocery store that I never shop at. The obvious difference is if the food is gone then they can't sell it, thus losing money. But, if you're playing the game and enjoying it, then OBVIOUSLY you would have bought it (Thus them losing money when it's pirated). If not, then wait until it goes down in price and get it at the price you deem to be reasonable! And failing that, just don't get the game! If it isn't worth anything to you, then you aren't missing out on much are you?

If I'm brainwashed by businesses trying to make money from a product they made, then you're brainwashed by a self righteous internet culture that thinks they have the right to steal someone's product.

 

[Cyclomega]

TL;DR -you know the only Truth, we are all sinners and should drag out, hogtie and lynch pirates, got it.

Got something clever to say now, Mr. Serious Business ?

It's seriously as shallow and empty as the debate over walkmen, VRCs and anything able to copy.
You wanted no copy ? then why make it available to the buying public ?
Why not put people who LEND stuff to friends and neighbours in jail ?

Endless egg-and-chicken debate, endless absence of a constitutive answer...

Only solution I see is charge a bit more for internet connections and re-distribute it to copyright owners.
Either that, or new copyright models...

 

[Signa]

Which is a contrast to many other I talk to, who say the crazy argument of 'Well, they aren't losing a customer since I wouldn't have bought the game anyways!' Yeah, well then I'm going to go steal food from a grocery store that I never shop at. The obvious difference is if the food is gone then they can't sell it, thus losing money. But, if you're playing the game and enjoying it, then OBVIOUSLY you would have bought it (Thus them losing money when it's pirated).

I was just going to drop it, because I'm sick of arguing about this. But I just wanted to point out that this statement right here it why I was arguing in the first place. But, like I said, I'm done.

 

[Andy Chalk]

Good, because the whole "I have no obligation to buy it but a God-given right to play it" nonsense was getting a little thick.

 

[Zer_]

Good, because the whole "I have no obligation to buy it but a God-given right to play it" nonsense was getting a little thick.

Yes, and for a long time some game developers were taking a dump on their loyal customers. It's no co-incidence that the companies who wrongfully enforce Anti-Piracy are the ones who suffer the most. By wrongfully I really mean just doing it in the wrong way. When it gets to the point where actually pirating the game is easier, or less tedious then legitimately buying the game things start to get dicey. Of course there are other factors.

Game developers need to say "Yes it is wrong to pirate games, but we are not prepared to punish our paying customers to fight it." They need to make it easier, faster and provide more value for their paying customers. Just look at the Valve (Orange Box), look at StarDock. These companies are proof that you can easily mitigate the piracy problem to a point where it doesn't pose such a threat.

Let's say a market chain decides to fight theft by basically turning their store into a guarded prison. Before entering the store you are checked for weapons or tools in what we like to call cavity searches. You then have to put on a trendy jump suit with no pockets. The entire store has one guarded exit, is made entirely of concrete, and it has terrible service because they spent all their time and money on security. Now let's assume that there is a large, illegally backed flea market that sells stolen goods acquired while in transit towards retailers. They have very little security, but great service and value. Who do you think the people will flock to?

The whole point of this thread isn't about "LOL I Pirate because I'm right." It's about how companies like Epic are hurting themselves by making a dick of themselves.

Here's a few good ideas that could actually help reduce pirating.

Steam - No brainer here.

Full Version Time Trial - The user has full access to all the content in a limited time trial. Then unlocking the game's time limitation will involve nothing more then a CD key generated online when purchased. Anyone without internet access would just go online on another PC in say a Cafe, they would purchase it there and then jot down the key for later use.

Go Commando - Offer the game with absolutely no DRM, and have it use the barebones CD Key system.

Game companies who hurt their legitimate customers' experience because of pirates deserve to be hurt by the pirates themselves. This is just like how someone deserves to have their arm eaten off by a lion if they smack it on the face with a stick. (Or to be more accurate in my analogy, the person deserves to have his arm eaten off by the rabid lion if he smacks the rabid lion's mate in the face with a stick).

 

[Nouw]

PC games are never rented and PC games are never sold used. I know that I'm generalising it a bit, but I am a whole lot more correct than he is right now.

I beg to differ. In fact saying that is like Internet Heresy.

OT:Hmmm... I'm on the fence

 

[MrTub]

I believe that's pretty reasonable really.
If I created a game who I was selling, I would probably too be pretty pissed if more than half of it's users were playing pirated versions.

It's quite a clever move to not sell in on PC.

Yeah cause piracy doesnt exist on any consoles..........

 

[AhumbleKnight]

I know I will never EVER pay for an incomplete game; or a game that cannot be re'sold complete.

If smaller companies don't make a profit ; I blame it on bad advertising or games being bad .

To give an example , where I live I can't find psychonauts anywhere (you know the story , not sold enough fast enough) ; I also can't find it used .
The reason is simple , most people who were lucky enough to actually buy it off the shelves are keeping it.

I baught psychonauts from steam. Steam is a good place to check out for the good yet somehow unpopular games. I also got Vampire Bloodlines from steam. Another game that is hard to find and is made of win.

 

[AhumbleKnight]

Don't you see the loop here, though? People steal product, company tries to stop that, people now steal product under the (Idiotic) guise of a protest, company tries harder to stop the theft, people steal more, ad infinitum.

That is flawed thinking. I can understand where they are comming from and I can see how it would be an issue but their logic fails. I will briefly try to explain why.

DRM does not affect the people pirating the game. The DRM is the first thing they get rid of before distributing the game. All pirated versions of DAO, for example, were DRM free. It took me two hours to get my legit copy working because the DRM was having major issues.

In short, the only people that DRM affects, are the customers.

Who do you think will be the first to stop this stupid loop so people can just go back to enjoying games? Developers trying to get money for their product (Which is apparently bad)? Or the people getting a product for free?

Valve. I will let Gabe Newell explain.

I think he sums up this entire issue nicely.

 

[acosn]

Its funny how developers hit the issues square on the head and the consumer base keeps putting their heads in the ground a'la ostrich fashion.

Crytek's estimate on piracy isn't that surprising considering that a year or so ago World of Goo creators put piracy rates on their game around 90% and Demigod found that 3 of every 4 or 5 people or so whom connected to the Demigod servers for multi-player on the first day didn't have a registered CD key. Lets assume they're being a bit liberal on their interpretation of statistics- really, how much better could conservative looks be? If you walked into a store and saw people casually stealing anything you'd get pissed off.

Companies have every right to protect their product. If it means axing the 3rd party so be it- companies have a legal obligation to their investors (Or, rather, there's no legal recourse for being fired on the grounds that you didn't do your job well enough) and their employees. Lord forbid they try to make money, and protect their livelihood.

Really though, some of it is very much still the fault of developers. 15 years ago if you wanted to get the word out about your game you made a demo of it and got it all over the place. Most games for the PC came with demos for at least 2 other games. People naturally responded. Even Blizzard had the idea of Spawning copies of SC. Trying to argue that demos wouldn't do anything now is just a blatant fallacy. PC gamers are a fickle bunch- they do research (and its plentiful) and they know when they don't want to spend their money on shovelware. If a company isn't sending their demos out they're rigging themselves up to be vulnerable to piracy.

 

[reg42]

So what they're saying is that over 20 million people played Crysis, but only 1 million brought it?
...
No, try again. There's no way to track how many times a game gets downloaded, so Crytek had to have pulled that out of their ass.

 

[Tjebbe]

I wonder if the guy pays his plumber every time he uses his bathroom.

 

[acosn]

So what they're saying is that over 20 million people played Crysis, but only 1 million brought it?
...
No, try again. There's no way to track how many times a game gets downloaded, so Crytek had to have pulled that out of their ass.

Reading comprehension just fails you doesn't it?

They're not pulling numbers out of their asses- they're looking at data. It's not hard to see how many people download something. Most every file sharing websites will disclose that kind of information.

My argument is that assuming they're being too liberal in their interpretation of the data (probably every single download translating to a lost sale) how much more conservative should they be? Half the people downloading it translating to a lost sale? That's still a staggering number.

 

[Tolrick]

Here's my take on the whole retailing used games.
If I go into a used game store and pick up a game, any game, with box and actual CD and booklets.. Guess what? The company that made the game already sold it to someone. They already made their money from that game. So what the new owner of said game does with it is their business really. You going to whine and moan about lost sales if the first owner gives the whole thing to their little brother in exchange for that new baseball glove?

Asking for a share of the profits from reselling a game is tantamount to selling the same item to more than one person. It's like those people that sell a TV, then go and steal the TV back to resell it.
Get over it. You sold your games, you made your profits, now get back to making more games people actually want to play and stop worrying about what we do with our own property.

 

[reg42]

Reading comprehension just fails you doesn't it?

No need to get bitchy. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but be mature about it.

They're not pulling numbers out of their asses- they're looking at data. It's not hard to see how many people download something. Most every file sharing websites will disclose that kind of information.

I assume you've got some sort of evidence to show that file sharing sites hand out download figures? And you're overlooking torrents.

 

[acosn]

I assume you've got some sort of evidence to show that file sharing sites hand out download figures? And you're overlooking torrents.

Basic level reading comprehension, again.

Most of the time when someone has a gripe about pirating they also have numbers as provided by file sharing networks and torrenting websites.

 

[reg42]

I assume you've got some sort of evidence to show that file sharing sites hand out download figures? And you're overlooking torrents.

Basic level reading comprehension, again.

Most of the time when someone has a gripe about pirating they also have numbers as provided by file sharing networks and torrenting websites.

Yeah, you've said that, but you haven't given me any evidence at all. At least give me link or something.