Escape to the Movies: Halo Legends

[LordGarbageMan]

But that's why I play western games, for the simplicity and the whole "shooting people in the face" part.

 

[paragon1]

Leaving aside the fact that I disagree with just about everything you just said regarding Mass Effect and Dragon Age (and yes, I'm a shameless fan of those), it seems to me that your basically arguing that masculine(or at least what western society views as masculine) characters are the most common type, and that this isn't the case in Japanese games.
I disagree.
Mario: You fight a bunch of dudes to rescue a princess
Legend of Zelda: You fight a bunch of dudes to rescue a princess (and the world).
Metroid: Space marine fights aliens.
Ico and Shadow of the Colossus: You fight a bunch of weird ass shit to rescue a girl (who looks an awful lot like a princess).
Notice a theme here?

Look if you're trying to start an East vs West argument with me you're wasting your time. I'm not a Japanophile and I won't go on record saying that Japanese games are better than Western games or vice versa. I believe I actually mentioned a couple Japanese games that fit the stereotype we were talking about: Metal Gear Solid heading the list.

Though you have failed epically with Metroid. It's actually a subversion of the trope and even names it's own. (*hint Samus is a girl.) It was an especially huge plot twist in the 1980s given the stereotype that we are talking about was also present then.

I won't put Japanese stereotypes of masculinity in the same vein as Western ones though because they are shaped by different cultural values. (Especially when it comes to the role of women, that usually being the helpless Princess in the castle. Suffice to say Japanese cultural values on the subject still resemble those of the American 1950s. If we want to be really simple about the comparisons.)

But you do seem to have changed gears a little bit, Japan and Japanese games are on an entirely different level but it's not the American and Western hyper masculinity. Learn about the culture the games come from before randomly picking things out of them to use in your argument, otherwise you're providing a deconstruction analysis that proves to be absolutely worthless.

Wait, so female Commander Shepard isn't really a woman but Samus is...based on what exactly? I'm having a hard time seeing how that character is anymore feminine than Master Chief when you get right down to it. Now, I happen to agree that Japanese aren't inherently better or worse either, I'm just sick of people acting like there's only one or two kinds of characters in Western videogames, and that Japanese games are somehow vastly superior. They are not. At least not by any standard of superiority that I know. And just so you know, I wasn't "picking things out at random". I was showing that Japan has it's own popular stereotypes regarding masculinity that have turned out to be quite popular. While I'm no expert, I'm not totally ignorant of Japanese culture, and I don't know I wrote that made you think that.

But this is all getting quite of topic of the thread isn't it? Moviebob seemed to be stating that there was one (and only one) type of character in Western games, and thus they have limited appeal. I disagreed, and listed some games with characters that, in my opinion, provided a counterexample to his statement. I was not making a statement disputing the popularity of hyper-masculine characters in Western games, nor was I trying to argue that Western games are somehow superior to Japanese games. I happen to like both quite a lot.

 

[ImpostorZim]

I think I understand what moviebob is getting at. If we start looking into characters in japanese games nowadays (I'll use Final Fantasy and Metal Gear Solid as solid examples) most of the time they present very complex characters with interesting backdrops. Notice that said uni-dimensional characters when he talks about Western games. Saying something or someone is uni-dimensional usually refers to the fact that they're very plain and simple. Master Chief, Duke Nukem, Gordon Freeman, they all have something in common.

Although they are undoubtedly badass, they're uninteresting, have no life story, nothing. While on the other hand Japanese developers for the most part make an effort to bring life into their characters. Squall Leonheart (FFVIII) may be stiff and antisocial, but the complexities of his situation as a child bring us to understand him. Hell, even Raiden (MGS2) was understandably odd for good reasons. Hopefully I'm wrong but to prove that, I'd have to see some proof.

 

[the sighing shoe]

By actually makeing the char's have some amount of personality

 

[Yelchor]

I still have my doubts about your anime experience since you said most animes seem like self-parodies (except in a sturgeon's law sense, in which case a lot do much like bad action movies do).

Well, according to what anime I've seen that is. It is a largely unexplored medium for me, and I simply do not know where to look if I am to become interested in it. So far I've mostly only stumbled upon things that does not quite fall into my taste.

Aye, that is a genuine issue with any medium (example: comic books switching writers and developing messy continuities).

A problem arising all too often if you ask me.

Your ability to be (somewhat, you still show skewed understanding of anime and JRPG's) fair and not hate Japanese things for being Japanese already makes you far more respectable than a lot of people I've met online. That aside, not all anime is about "silly teenagers with strange swords" by any means, those just tend to be the popular shonen series (and even then they're not necessarily bad, just not what you seem to want). May I recommend Monster, which has adult protagonists, no supernatural powers, a real-world setting, and a psychological plot? Or Baccano, which does have supernatural powers but doesn't center around fights with them, and also has mostly-adult protagonists (lordlee extremely recommends this series)? Hell, just a throwaway suggestion that I doubt you'll like, but Fullmetal Alchemist, while still having young protagonists and (in our world, this disclaimer makes sense in context) supernatural powers, is more plot-heavy than the stereotypical fighting series you seem to be wary of.

To make this short, anime=/=Shonen Jump, much like films=/=Michael Bay or books=/=Twilight. You might want help finding good series, though, so maybe you could join the anime fans group and ask around? I'll even send you an invite if you wish.

Oh, and interesting stories and fantasy settings aren't mutually exclusive by any means, plenty of works in all mediums have interesting stories in fantasy settings.

I admit that my views on JRPGs and anime in general is narrowed, but that's mostly beacuse I've never really bothered mapping it. The sillyness of most things I've seen is just simply too excessive for me to bear. If someone could point me out to potential "gold pieces" it is certainly welcome, which you and lordlee have now shown. I'll look in to it! I have only myself to blame if I do not bother giving it a try.

Also, what do you mean with the "=/=" signs? I'm not quite familiar with its meaning.

On the offer of joining the anime group, why not? The internet is meant to be used socially, isn't it? No harm can come out of exploring different parts of the world's media, even if it might appear alien.

I'm not against fantasy settings. I guess the point I was trying to make in my previous post was that there are things to me which level of interest outmatches most other things. In this case fedual Japan, which has potential for great entertainment even if you didn't put in supernatural elements, which really says alot.

I liked Fallout 3 for a mixture of gameplay (i.e better weapons and combat, and far more interesting level-up system) and setting (I just love the post-apocalyptic subversively-50's motif) improvements over the comparatively dull Oblivion. Can't comment of KOTOR, though, since I need to get around to it (running Ubuntu won't make that much easier).

Indeed, Fallout 3 had a refreshing setting. The combat was alot more varied then Oblivion. I hope you'll complete KOTOR at some point, that could have us discuss about something which I enjoy for a change!

Specify the Final Fantasy's you played, they're actually rather different. To elaborate as far as I know (note that I've only played a few, lordlee will probably angrily correct me):
1-3: Pretty basic plot as you'd expect from the 8-bit era. Also, apparently 2 is terrible.
4-5: Beefed-up from 1-3, and 5 is, as mentioned, intentionally rather silly.
6: Now things are getting good. A darker steampunk setting, rather interesting characters, surprisingly emotive sprites, and a story that while not terribly original is still quite sweeping. Kinda collapses with the World of Ruin, though.
7: Other than the overratedness cliche (it's gotten so much hate over it that ironically, it's underrated now), also comparatively dark. You might have played this, though, and I'm not too knowledgeable about it.
8: Hoo boy this is hated, both for gameplay (Junctioning) and story (Time Compression) reasons. See Spoony's review [http://spoonyexperiment.com/category/final-fantasy-viii/] for details.
9: Resembles an older Final Fantasy game with newer graphics and story conventions (to my knowledge). Doesn't seem to be for you.
10: You know what, I'm not really sure despite having played this a good bit.

Never played any of the first games. It would likely have been worth playing the series at that time (quality games were hard to come by during the 2-D era as far as I can tell), so I can understand how its success started. I might remember a few sketchy things about the sixth installment, but not enough to comment on. The impressions I got from Final Fantasy 7 were negative, with most things I dislike about this sort of media being highlighted. I did not play through the whole game, but it didn't give me much reason to want to. The eight part of the series was even worse. I really didn't understand the point of it. I never played Final Fantasy 9, but oddly enough it appeared more interesting to me since it atleast appeared to know what it wanted to be, so to say. And the last part I played was the tenth installment. It did actually contain a couple of interesting adventure concepts and characters, but the method of execution ruined much of the appeal for me. Mostly reffering to the voices and overall main character behaviour.

Hm, the Final Fantasy series generally seems to not be to your tastes. Maybe you should try Persona 3 & 4 (seriously, even Something Awful loves them)?

I'll look into it, thanks for the direction!

Also, since lordlee's quoting you didn't work out, I'll show you his post:

Go play a Fire Emblem game (NOT Shadow Dragon) or a Tales game (NOT Tales of Legendia or the GBA or SNES versions of Phantasia).

I strongly second both, by the way.

Oh. He quoted me? My apologies for not noticing! Can't find his post.

I've been lurking here since late 2007, you really are not alone, though we're not a place that tears anime fans apart either as shown by me and several others.

Edit: Oh crap, massive misunderstanding. You see, I actually like JRPG's, by "here" I didn't mean me, I meant the forums.

But you did dislike some aspects of it, I take it? Atleast that's the impression I got from another discussion with you a while back.

Thank you for telling me of these titles. I'll look for them when I have the time.

EDIT: Also, on a bit Off-Topic question, how come there is a view on Japanese media and audiences caring about the plot and story of things to a great extent? Not sure of its origin, it's just something I've heard and I am asking simply out of curiosity. If the assumption I stated was true, wouldn't most Japanese games focus alot on such? Out of my own limited experience I shouldn't go into conclusions, though in honesty so far I've seen the picture being rather reversed, with the western world containing many immersive story-experiences with the Japanese containing not so much. Though perhaps such claims are based on the examples you and lordlee have suggested?

It's something which has been on my mind lately. Don't get me wrong, this isn't another talk of dislike of Japanese animation culture. I find it interesting to discuss cultures in depth, origins and reasons for them.

My apologies if I've appeared unreasonably ignorant in any way. It certainly wasn't my intention!

 

[A random person]

Well, according to what anime I've seen that is. It is a largely unexplored medium for me, and I simply do not know where to look if I am to become interested in it. So far I've mostly only stumbled upon things that does not quite fall into my taste.

Anime strikes many people as childish because the anime they've seen is made for children. Again, I'm largely operating under the assumption that you're mostly experienced with Dragon Ball Z and Pokemon, so if that's correct no wonder you haven't gotten a good impression of anime.

A problem arising all too often if you ask me.

True, adaptation decay [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdaptationDecay] and continuity snarl [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ContinuitySnarl] are unfortunately commonplace.
[small]You knew I was just taking the chance link to TV Tropes, right?[/small]

I admit that my views on JRPGs and anime in general is narrowed, but that's mostly beacuse I've never really bothered mapping it. The sillyness of most things I've seen is just simply too excessive for me to bear. If someone could point me out to potential "gold pieces" it is certainly welcome, which you and lordlee have now shown. I'll look in to it! I have only myself to blame if I do not bother giving it a try.

It seems we'll have to talk more extensively and get people more experienced than I am on the matter. For being open-minded about the subject instead of just making a bunch of androgyny jokes and Yahtzee quotes, you have surpassed a lot of people here.

Also, what do you mean with the "=/=" signs? I'm not quite familiar with its meaning.

Not equal, as in 2=/=3.

On the offer of joining the anime group, why not? The internet is meant to be used socially, isn't it? No harm can come out of exploring different parts of the world's media, even if it might appear alien.

Splendid, I'll send you one quite soon.

I'm not against fantasy settings. I guess the point I was trying to make in my previous post was that there are things to me which level of interest outmatches most other things. In this case fedual Japan, which has potential for great entertainment even if you didn't put in supernatural elements, which really says alot.

True, there are plenty of realistic settings with awesome fictional potential, and feudal Japan is one of them. Hell, I'm still waiting for a movie with historically accurate ninjas (i.e peasant assassins), awesome as the exaggerated kind may be.

Indeed, Fallout 3 had a refreshing setting. The combat was alot more varied then Oblivion. I hope you'll complete KOTOR at some point, that could have us discuss about something which I enjoy for a change!

We'll need that conversation, most of our interactions have indeed been me rambling about anime and JRPG's. Sorry about that, I tend to start and dominate conversations with my choice topics.

Never played any of the first games. It would likely have been worth playing the series at that time (quality games were hard to come by during the 2-D era as far as I can tell), so I can understand how its success started. I might remember a few sketchy things about the sixth installment, but not enough to comment on. The impressions I got from Final Fantasy 7 were negative, with most things I dislike about this sort of media being highlighted. I did not play through the whole game, but it didn't give me much reason to want to. The eight part of the series was even worse. I really didn't understand the point of it. I never played Final Fantasy 9, but oddly enough it appeared more interesting to me since it atleast appeared to know what it wanted to be, so to say. And the last part I played was the tenth installment. It did actually contain a couple of interesting adventure concepts and characters, but the method of execution ruined much of the appeal for me. Mostly reffering to the voices and overall main character behaviour.

Let me make this very clear about 8: it's simply a bad game. Click on that Spoony link for details. As for 7, I'm gonna have to actually play that judge as opposed to relying on pop cultural osmosis [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PopCulturalOsmosis]. Lordlee's a bit of an exception in ranking it high, though. You might enjoy 9 as it does "know what it wants to be." Oh, and the voices and main character of 10 are considered game breakers.

I'll look into it, thanks for the direction!

Keep in mind they don't quite stray from anime/JRPG territory, but to my knowledge they're very well made.

Oh. He quoted me? My apologies for not noticing! Can't find his post.

He tried, but the quoting screwed up, hence you not noticing.

But you did dislike some aspects of it, I take it? Atleast that's the impression I got from another discussion with you a while back.

Thank you for telling me of these titles. I'll look for them when I have the time.

As I do with any medium or genre, yes. Gameplaywise I'd quite adverse to liability characters; I gave up on FFIV because Edward cannot do anything useful, and with story I do acknowledge overly-cliche stories, though do account for execution as I loved the troperiffic Tales of Symphonia.

EDIT: Also, on a bit Off-Topic question, how come there is a view on Japanese media and audiences caring about the plot and story of things to a great extent? Not sure of its origin, it's just something I've heard and I am asking simply out of curiosity. If the assumption I stated was true, wouldn't most Japanese games focus alot on such? Out of my own limited experience I shouldn't go into conclusions, though in honesty so far I've seen the picture being rather reversed, with the western world containing many immersive story-experiences with the Japanese containing not so much. Though perhaps such claims are based on the examples you and lordlee have suggested?

It's probably an artifact of earlier gaming eras, where games with a plot beyond an excuse to jump on/shoot things were Japanese, and even then that was centered in JRPG's. This kept up through the 5th and 6th console generations with Metal Gear Solid and a variety of games on the Playstation (for example, while I wouldn't cite a Castlevania game as having a deep plot, SotN was still beyond quite a few things at the time). Western gaming being plot-heavy is a somewhat recent reversal, though not to say that they didn't exist before as they did, they just weren't as dominant.

As for animation, cartoons here were, and still kinda are, seen as a frivolous medium that only makes works for children, see animation age ghetto [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimationAgeGhetto] for details. When anime first came here (not including very heavily-edited things that would make 4kids blush) it was a rare example of mature, plot-driven animation, and some western cartoons tried to compete with it (Exo-Squad was marketed as "The American Anime"). This impression keeps up today in my experience; when I first watched Pokemon as a 6 or 7 year old, I was impressed by how it had an ongoing plot and action, as opposed to things I've seen earlier.

Not that western animation can't be mature, because it sure as hell can as shown by gems like Avatar the Last Airbender (you might see this as a bad example, so substitute what you will). I'd also like to say that the reason I like anime is because I generally prefer animation to live-action, so my liking of anime is an extension of my initial liking of western cartoons (minus the western distinction, as my exposure to anime was at age 6 or 7), though as time went on I developed an appreciation of tropes and cultural traits in anime.

It's something which has been on my mind lately. Don't get me wrong, this isn't another talk of dislike of Japanese animation culture. I find it interesting to discuss cultures in depth, origins and reasons for them.

My apologies if I've appeared unreasonably ignorant in any way. It certainly wasn't my intention!

If you were attacking Japanese animation/video game culture, you would have been a hell of a lot more ignorant and probably make a girly-men joke. I have experience with actual anime/JRPG bashers, and while you might share similar motivations, you don't behave nearly as asshat-like as they do.

 

[ZeLunarian]

Just a thought:
Any similarities between this movie and the Animatrix?? It even has an origins narrated by a female AI :3
(I still enjoyed it)
Maybe Bob took the high road?

 

[Azaraxzealot]

I think the fanboy in him showed in this review, i liked his other ones, but i think he was just doing this specifically to slap Halo fans in the face. Obviously his encounters with Halo fans have been unpleasant, and he also seems to hate the scene of western gaming in general...

look, if you're gonna hate on western gaming, move to japan.

troll.

EDIT: He really WAS trolling on Halo and western gaming. Don't flame me or say I'm stupid for noticing this clear fact.

 

[CyanLink]

I wasn't going to make an account here but I really feel I need to put my two cents in as far as this whole "Halo fans are hate spouting arseholes" sentiment is going.

I wouldn't say Halo fans are dickholes. I would say dickholes are attracted to whatever is popular and standard as far as their culture is concerned and when Halo came out it was nothing if not standard in western gaming culture. Said people will always change their interests based on what is popular in the same manner as someone being a fan of the Yankees simply because they win all the time.

So what was a hate spouting Halo fan became a hate spouting Gears fan once again became a blah blah Halo fan and is now a CoD Mod fan. I'm certain that many of them will soon become Battlefield: Bad Company 2 fans before once again returning to Halo when Reach comes out later this year. It is the inherent curse of what is popular in this internet connected age.

Thank you for your time.

 

[ManiacRaccoon]

good review, as always. Quick question though, what is that pixelated lizard thing he shows every time he's talking about fanboys or internet forums from? I just went back and watched another couple of reviews and saw it pop up a few more times and now it's bugging me. It going to keep doing so until I know probably.

 

[DreadfulSorry]

Whelp, Moviebob's convinced me to rent it from netflix at least! I'm not a huge fan of Halo, but neither was he, so I suppose I might like it.

 

[kronoset]

I guess these shorts might appeal to a Halo fan who's never seen a quality animated movie before. Watch any modern animated movie thus far and please try to tell me the the animation in the Halo shorts was "good". I got disagree with the critic--the "watercolor" animation looks lazy and was badly done. The first tip off to that was that I couldn't tell it was supposed to be watercolor until a little less than halfway in--and I'm an artist. It just looked like somebody took CG-animated stills an put them through the Photoshop paint filter. The dialogue was terrible, the story relied on on cliche supposedly emotional moments that both Halo or a even anime fans fans would be justified to scoff at. It just seemed like very little creativity or effort was put in. That's just my opinion, but if you intend to counter-argue, then please at least watch Sword of a Stranger, Bleach (3rd Movie), or actually, just about every anime-movie that has been produced in the last 5-10 years.

 

[SilentBobsThoughts]

Loved it, ''1337'' was a pretty good idea too, and what I also liked was that Master Chief wasn't always the saviour, giving more perspective on the people in the background, thus bringing the story to a more conclusive ending.

 

[Riven Armor]

I think the fanboy in him showed in this review, i liked his other ones, but i think he was just doing this specifically to slap Halo fans in the face. Obviously his encounters with Halo fans have been unpleasant, and he also seems to hate the scene of western gaming in general...

look, if you're gonna hate on western gaming, move to japan.

troll.

EDIT: He really WAS trolling on Halo and western gaming. Don't flame me or say I'm stupid for noticing this clear fact.

QFT

Amusingly enough, he spent a good couple minutes dumping on the "Space Marine" archetype (unjustly, IMO) then went and heaped flowers on most of the anime cliches including, well, the Spartan flower/teddybear scene GUNDAM GUNDAM GUNDAM

 

[Mezzo.]

Oh lawdy lawd.

Spartan 1337. That has to be a joke somehow.

It is, a some what subtle one at that.... wait subtlety in Halo! The world is ending, THE VOGONS ARE COMING!!!!!!!!!!

OH SHIT! GOTTA HITCHHIKE.

 

[Rainboq]

Oh lawdy lawd.

Spartan 1337. That has to be a joke somehow.

It is, a some what subtle one at that.... wait subtlety in Halo! The world is ending, THE VOGONS ARE COMING!!!!!!!!!!

OH SHIT! GOTTA HITCHHIKE.

Don't forget your towel!

 

[Agro9]

Leaving aside the fact that I disagree with just about everything you just said regarding Mass Effect and Dragon Age (and yes, I'm a shameless fan of those), it seems to me that your basically arguing that masculine(or at least what western society views as masculine) characters are the most common type, and that this isn't the case in Japanese games.
I disagree.
Mario: You fight a bunch of dudes to rescue a princess
Legend of Zelda: You fight a bunch of dudes to rescue a princess (and the world).
Metroid: Space marine fights aliens.
Ico and Shadow of the Colossus: You fight a bunch of weird ass shit to rescue a girl (who looks an awful lot like a princess).
Notice a theme here?

Look if you're trying to start an East vs West argument with me you're wasting your time. I'm not a Japanophile and I won't go on record saying that Japanese games are better than Western games or vice versa. I believe I actually mentioned a couple Japanese games that fit the stereotype we were talking about: Metal Gear Solid heading the list.

Though you have failed epically with Metroid. It's actually a subversion of the trope and even names it's own. (*hint Samus is a girl.) It was an especially huge plot twist in the 1980s given the stereotype that we are talking about was also present then.

I won't put Japanese stereotypes of masculinity in the same vein as Western ones though because they are shaped by different cultural values. (Especially when it comes to the role of women, that usually being the helpless Princess in the castle. Suffice to say Japanese cultural values on the subject still resemble those of the American 1950s. If we want to be really simple about the comparisons.)

But you do seem to have changed gears a little bit, Japan and Japanese games are on an entirely different level but it's not the American and Western hyper masculinity. Learn about the culture the games come from before randomly picking things out of them to use in your argument, otherwise you're providing a deconstruction analysis that proves to be absolutely worthless.

Wait, so female Commander Shepard isn't really a woman but Samus is...based on what exactly? I'm having a hard time seeing how that character is anymore feminine than Master Chief when you get right down to it. Now, I happen to agree that Japanese aren't inherently better or worse either, I'm just sick of people acting like there's only one or two kinds of characters in Western videogames, and that Japanese games are somehow vastly superior. They are not. At least not by any standard of superiority that I know. And just so you know, I wasn't "picking things out at random". I was showing that Japan has it's own popular stereotypes regarding masculinity that have turned out to be quite popular. While I'm no expert, I'm not totally ignorant of Japanese culture, and I don't know I wrote that made you think that.

But this is all getting quite of topic of the thread isn't it? Moviebob seemed to be stating that there was one (and only one) type of character in Western games, and thus they have limited appeal. I disagreed, and listed some games with characters that, in my opinion, provided a counterexample to his statement. I was not making a statement disputing the popularity of hyper-masculine characters in Western games, nor was I trying to argue that Western games are somehow superior to Japanese games. I happen to like both quite a lot.

You would not know that Metroid is a woman unless you actually finished the game, as at the end she strips off her armour and she is wearing a bikini, it was very cool even with gameboy graphics lol

 

[Endocrom]

Quick question: Are there any spoilers for Halo 3 in this?

 

[Doug]

Quick question: Are there any spoilers for Halo 3 in this?

No.

 

[MB202]

Yeah, but the vast majority of them are.

I could say that all anime fans are annoying Otakus and I would be just as wrong as you are now.

Well, actually, most of them all, just like the vast majority of Halo fans are dickholes.

My point is that NOT ALL of them are like the stereotype, but most of them are usually just that.

No its just a small minority that you notice for two reasons. A: you yourself are a dickhole. And B: The jackasses are far more vocal than the rest of the fanbase.

Ah, I see. I doubt many people would admit to being a dickhole, so...