Escape to the Movies: Machete Kills

[Bayushi_Kouya]

This makes me so sad. I wanted to see this movie. Ah well, Netflix in three years, I guess.

BOB. I PLAYED KICKMASTER. YOU'RE RIGHT, IT WAS GOOD.

 

[hazabaza1]

"If there's one drawback, its that the gore has been dialed back..."

Bob says, as a clip plays of Machete ripping out a man's intestines and throws it into the whirring blades of a helicopter, causing the man to be yanked into the blades and chopped into tiny pieces.

You need to watch the first one. It's more OTT and I love it.

Pulling a dude through a helicopter blade via his colon? A-okay! Nipple? Nooooooope.

Welcome to the future, lads and lasses. It's gonna be a repressive ride.

Not sure why you decided to bust the soapbox out, there wasn't really any discussion about sex with this whole thing before and Machete 1 had a lot of boobs just hanging around the place. I'm guessing this one will be at least somewhat similar.

 

[TallanKhan]

The comparison to Brian from Family Guy is actually pretty spot on, as the introduction of political/social/economic issues into a discussion on a mass-entertainment film like this is just about as self-defeating as any cartoon's feeble attempts to 'get serious.' I enjoy Bob's movie criticism, game discussions, etc... in and of themselves, but dearly wish he would stop trying to tie both into dopey and superficial left-authoritarian, pro-Democrat master narratives that won him over during those impressionable college years. It wouldn't be much different if an astute political philosopher or historian tried to throw some poorly-thought-out blanket statement over whole genres of movies or gaming.

All I'm saying is that I'm not interested in even opening up a discussion on Spanish-American discrimination when I'm watching trailer footage for a movie about a character who couldn't possibly be more of a white overgrown teenager's fantasy imagining of a bad-ass Mexican. On the surface, everything about Trejo's appearance and vibe makes him seem like one of the over-the-top caricatures from a GTA game. I similar wouldn't start discussing womens' rights while watching a porn video.

By and large I agree. I would say that considering the level of social and political comentary in the first Machete film it was reasonable and noteworthy that this has been dialed back in the newer film but that said I don't think that is a bad thing. I found the tone of the first film trying to talkle "big issues" from quite a bias standpoint jarring with the OTT violence and humour.

Overall I wouldn't damn Bob for broaching the subject but I wish he would be more aware of his own political bias when he talks about these subjects.

 

[Darth_Payn]

The first film was so dumb... I remember laughting, which means I was proberly enjoying myself but that pool scene was something else, I cringed... then got a boner, but a cringy kind of boner.

You should get that looked at. I don't even want to think of what shape it turned into.

OT: I didn't see the first Machete because of the in-your-face message, which I couldn't tell if it was genuine or a parody of "message" movies from the grindhouse era, and Bob likes trumpeting in his reviews. Not every movie needs to be "about" something "deeper". I am fully able to enjoy movies on what I see and hear on screen, thank you very much. Honestly, when it comes to Tarantino and Rodriguez, I think I need a degree in film just to watch their movies.

 

[Brockyman]

And of course Bob continues his "I have to talk about something ungodly liberal in every review" cliche. He's becoming like Brian in Family Guy, started out full of wit and humor as a straight man and devolving into a liberal cliche.

C'mom Bob, not everything has to be about something.

Also, border security isn't "anti-Mexican". While I know some people do have racist intentions, the majority of Americans that support border security just want to be secure. Most of them don't mind good, hardworking, TAX PAYING, LEGAL immigration, and most support making becoming legal easier for those who deserve it (i.e. not drug dealer, rapist ect).

Not everything in life is fueled by racism and sexism, and while they still do exist (and probably always will since stupid people can't be exterminated), it's not the end-all, be-all to everything, and consistently using it is like the boy crying wolf to the point most people don't care.

It's mostly a side effect of Republican policies from the 70's-90's biting them in the ass. Back when they decided to continue courting the Racist vote by shrouding it in the trappings of economic policies (yes, they actually did document that). Given that many of the same assholes are still in charge or have influence (and Republicans even now saying dumb racist/misogynist junk), you can see how it taints... well, damn near everything they say regarding anybody not White.

We can mainly agree on the last point so I cut it. I'm not against legalization of some drugs. Also, some proactive intervention could stop the violence from spilling across and helping the poor villagers that see the brunt of it every day.

To the point.

1. I don't get your "racist vote" thing. The Republican Party was founded by slave abolitionists in 1854 and included Abraham Lincoln. The Republican Party had a very strong voice in Civil Rights legislation, and mainly democrats, including George Wallace in Alabama, were Democrats. Yes, there asshole that are racists in all parties, but there isn't any directly racist actions I've ever seen.

Please, please stop with the "Well, we were on the good side a hundred years ago" argument. As the old question goes: "What have you done for me lately?" And the answer isn't good. I suggest you look up the term "Southern Strategy". Here's something to get you started -- an excerpt from a 1981 interview with Lee Atwater:

Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, "******, ******, ******." By 1968 you can't say "******" ? that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me ? because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "******, ******."[4]

Short version: in the Lyndon Johson passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964), pissing off much of the South, save for Texas ('cause it's LBJ!). Barry Goldwater and the Republican Party moved to take the Southern states by appealing to racist voters. It worked, and the situation you mentioned for that past hundred years or so reversed completely.

2. What "racist/misogynist junk" are you refering too? You whole "they say regarding anybody not White" already shows your bias, but I'd like to hear your opinion. I'll also give you a few examples others shoot out at as racist or misogynistic.

?just too much that you don?t know,? Bennett said. ?But I do know that it?s true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could ? if that were your sole purpose ? you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down.?
--Bill Bennet

"I struggled with it myself for a long time, and I realized that life is a gift from God, and I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something God intended to happen." -- Richard Mourdock (R)Indiana (former, thankfully)

"These Planned Parenthood women, the Code Pink women, and all of these women have been neutering American men and bringing us to the point of this incredible weakness...We are not going to have our men become subservient." Allen West (R) Florida (Also former, and proof that it's not only White Republicans that say dumb sh*t).

"If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down." Todd Akin (R) Missouri (Again, former, showing that people are much less tolerant of that thing anymore)

"The facts show that people who are raped ?who are truly raped?the juices don't flow, the body functions don't work and they don't get pregnant. Medical authorities agree that this is a rarity, if ever."
?former Rep. Henry Aldridge (R-N.C.)

"As long as it's inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it."
?Former Texas Republican gubernatorial contender Clayton Williams on rape

All of this was said in the past year.

-Government shouldn't pay for abortions or birth control. This one is always held up as misogynistic, and thinking that is honestly, stupid. Small government activists don't want the government to pay for anything, or as little as possible. It's not anti-woman, but anti-spending

I didn't say jack about this...

-Abortion. This is seen to an afront to women's rights. Take a look from a different perspective. The people on that side of the aisle see life as important and precious and see abortion as killing an innocent life. While I personally don't want legislation to make abortion illegal, I understand their point, and shudder that people use it as birth control when so many great things are out there to stop pregnancy

...Or this...

(And there are simpler ways of birth control than abortion, like pretty much all of them save for the surgical methods. And cheaper, too. So no, I don't see many women using abortion as a measure of birth control. That seems like getting a root canal every time you get a cavity.)

-Voter ID. This is probably the stupidest one I've heard. "It's RACIST" TO WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE IDs to VOTE!!! You have to have an ID to do almost anything in this country from writing and cashing checks, to traveling by car or air, ect. Why shouldn't you have to prove who you are to vote? An instead of talking about "disenfranchising voters", why don't those groups help underprivileged people GET THEIR STATE IDS!

...or this, for that matter.

First, I through in the abortion and voter ID arguments and a preemptive strike because those are 2 of the most asinine and stupid comments my liberal friends make to me.

I'm not going to deny those people said those things... I don't deny these people are stupid (although I do think Allen West did have a point in his). I know that you don't know me personally but I was outraged and screaming at the TV when many of those things were said, especially the rape comments...

But there are two things you're missing. One - these views don't represent myself, anyone I know, including the elected officials I know and friends, family, and people I discuss this with, and I believe the majority of conservatives/republicans/libertarians . Two - It doesn't represent the party itself. I know that we like to demonize organizations for the actions of a few, but most people with common sense don't agree.

I can fill the entire forum with racist, stupid, ignorant, mean spirited, and despicable things that Democrats and liberals say including much Higher Profile people such as Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Obama, Bill Mahr, Bill Ayers (I don't think anyone in your list ever sent bombs anywhere...), Jane Fonda (traitor), Joe Biden (just his crap alone could fill a book), Al Sharpton, Barney Frank, and many more.

The meat of what I'm saying is that REAL CHANGE will never, never, ever happen as long as BOTH SIDES continue to demonize each other. Border Security DOESN'T EQUAL HATE, Pro Life DOESN'T EQUAL HATE, ect...

I think my side of the aisle (I'm more a libertarian personally but conservative economics make more sense) needs to get rid of most of the people on the list above and take another look at things like Gay Marriage, Abortion, and other social issues and put aside personal religious believes for so others can be happy.

However, this isn't going to happen as long as people keep calling their group "racists" or "homophobes" or "bigots". MOST PEOPLE aren't, and just need education.

I was very anti gay marriage in my youth, and the more I heard things like that, the more my heart was hardened. I didn't hate anyone, I was just very religious. Then I met real people, with real situations and saw there was a better way.

I've never hated people of different colors. I think all humans have the genetic ability to do anything and should be treated equally in the eyes of the law, and of people. I think where things get dicey is when you though "culture" into it. A "stupid" white person would see a black or Hispanic man in a suit and tie, they think nothing of it, but they see a group of whites, blacks or hispanics, in a group with their pants to their ankles, sideways baseball hats, listening to loud threatening music, and yelling obsenities, then they will be scared. I'ts not because of the people doing those actions, it's the actions.

This same principle could be use for everything on both sides of the aisle.

To summarize, the whole list you went through is part of the problem... to pick and choose people to demonize a whole group is ... well... wasn't racism what you were fighting against?? If you REALLY feel that most Americans with a conservative/Republican leaning are racists, then we can't have a civilized debate. You need to look at yourself, realize that racists aren't in your soup and all around you, and try to work positively for what you believe.

 

[Brockyman]

Please, please stop with the "Well, we were on the good side a hundred years ago" argument. As the old question goes: "What have you done for me lately?" And the answer isn't good. I suggest you look up the term "Southern Strategy".

As opposed to the Democrats, who are nothing but a shining beacon of purity and all the is good in this world, right? Let's go to the "old question" and ask them(the democrats), what have you done for me lately?

Oh that's right, they decided to give companies a break but screw over individual people [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCXNeHmx9Qw&t=1m44s]. Better yet, the democrat administration have set up a website that doesn't even work despite the fact that poor college kids are being forced against there will to use the website if they don't want to be fined. Just for kicks, watch Kathleen Sebelius dodge all of John Stewart's questions about whether or not the Affordable Care Act website is working properly:


Gee, what else can I look at when I think of that question, "what have you done for me lately"? Oh, I see that under the current administration, Edward Snowden is treated as a criminal, Chelsea/Bradley Manning was illegally put in prison for three years prior to being convicted for any crime, and is now serving a 35 year prison sentencing. Meanwhile Julian Assange still faces questionable charges that might be used by the US to get him extradited if he ever leaves the Ecuadorean embassy.
That's not even getting into the whole NSA spying program and how Obama basically said that we should trade freedom for security(despite previously being against such views) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vixVPE4LBAU] and we should allow the PRISM program [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29] to continue to run.
And who could forget the fact that NONE of the CEO's of any of the major banks that caused the 2008 economic meltdown have faced any jail time, and instead, said companies received tax payer funded bailouts, all the while people are having their houses foreclosed on them.

Then there is the fact that Obama seemed to be dead set on military intervention in Syria despite the fast majority of the US being opposed to it.

And finally who could forget about Libya? A move that SNL rightfully criticized for having a questionable justification [http://videos.mediaite.com/video/SNLs-Muammar-Gaddafi-Has-Some-A].

Yeah, good thing those democrats are not as bad as those horrible republicans, right?

Thanks for your thoughts.

One. John Stewart's ability to hide behind the "I'm an entertainer" is sickening. He is one of the people I should have refereed to in another post. Calling people "crazy" because they don't want the Federal government involved in their personal lives is part of the reason we can't get anywhere with anything.

If you believe in single payer/government run health care, meet me and the other "crazy" people on the field of ideas and debate instead of demonizing people for defaulting to freedom

 

[Verlander]

Anyway, Bob's review read like this: The first film was strong because it was a neat action flick with a hidden meaning. This is a good action flick, but has lost the meaning, so it isn't as good. It's a solid observation - 90% of action films are pure right wing propaganda, so for Machete have a strong and relevant point to make, only to drop in the sequel, is commentable.


Essentially what I'm saying is: stop raving about the personal politics of the reviewer (who'd be considered "centrist" in any country that wasn't America) as though it made a difference in his opinion. He name dropped Kevin Smith, with added photo of Red State as something he hated. If his personal politics made a difference in how preferably he review a film, as your logic dictates, he'd have raved about that one.

I similar wouldn't start discussing womens' rights while watching a porn video.

Surely that's a really good time...?

Also, I get the anti-Kevin Smith thing. Not that I agree, but it makes sense. Bob's an east coast amateur film maker who loves comics, geek culture and intelligent dialogue. He's even slightly overweight with a goatee and has the same ex-Catholic heritage. I'd put money that nearly every one who had met him over the last decade or so has asked his opinion on, compared him to, or talked endlessly about Kevin Smith - the dude who made it all work. Not only must that get frustrating in itself, but to watch Smith (the ONLY guy who the amateur nerd film worked out for) do very little with his potential, while the rest of that generation are lucky to get a writing slot on local television, must drive you insane.

See also: "Same beliefs, approached in an undignified way" and "Diva about being a large chap when the rest just deal with it".


Anyway, I reckon I'll get around to watching this, these sort of films are pure entertainment.

 

[Verlander]

Reading through the nonsense in this thread, allow me to throw this at all of you:

All major and minor political parties have their policies for the sole purpose of controlling people and money. They don't care about anything else.

Republicans would be the easiest to call out, so they lay it on thick with the "patriotism" and the anti-taxes bullshit. Border patrols, anti abortion? Control, over economy and people. They oppose social health care simply because it costs money. Not because it will destroy the economy, because it won't. Not because it threatens freedom, because it doesn't. They sell themselves on "freedom and liberty" because it's an easy way to write off the many ways that they remove those things.

The Democrats are more direct. They offer a vastly improved way of life through security, but insist that they regulate that. Whether it's healthcare, food standards, pensions, welfare - they drag up the standards of the everyday man, but insist it's them that do it.

Reality is, they both are bad at their jobs, and they've been firing stupid propaganda for so long that the citizens are fried. The left isn't left enough, the right is, well, wrong, and they've been calling each other "nazis" and "commies" for so long that it's not going to change. Capitalism by itself isn't enough, and the US' brief time at the forefront is already coming fast to a close.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Thanks for your thoughts.

One. John Stewart's ability to hide behind the "I'm an entertainer" is sickening. He is one of the people I should have refereed to in another post. Calling people "crazy" because they don't want the Federal government involved in their personal lives is part of the reason we can't get anywhere with anything.

If you believe in single payer/government run health care, meet me and the other "crazy" people on the field of ideas and debate instead of demonizing people for defaulting to freedom

One, I'm not a fanboy of Stewarts, so I'm not bothered that you don't like the guy. Two, I didn't say you were crazy, drop the red herring. Three, I see that you conveniently avoided mentioning how the democrat president defended the actions taken by NASA and the prosecution of whistle blowers.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

1. I don't get your "racist vote" thing. The Republican Party was founded by slave abolitionists in 1854 and included Abraham Lincoln.

No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. fucking NO! I don't care what your opinion on social issues is, you do not get to pull such a misrepresentation statement like "A group of people called "Republicans" were once anti-slavery" and use that to combat claims of modern Republican racism, because it is nothing but shameless ignorance or willful deception.

Once the Civil War ended, the Republicans distanced themselves from civil rights to not alienate the racist white demographic and, after Woodrow Wilson's election, progressive Republicans started migrating over to the Democrats. Then Hoover, the first person to actually use the Southern Strategy, appealed to the KKK and fears of a Catholic (the Democratic choice) which made him the first Republican to win Texas, and, in turn, alienate black people.

Northern Democrats then used the alienated black vote and FDR won on a liberal, progressive campaign, which pissed off the southern democrats to the point where they switched and joined republicans, bringing with them their anti-civil rights ideas. This caused northern and black Republicans to just outright abandon the party and go to the democrats, who were now using progressive platforms and gathering up all the blacks and pro-civil rights republicans.

-Government shouldn't pay for abortions or birth control. This one is always held up as misogynistic, and thinking that is honestly, stupid. Small government activists don't want the government to pay for anything, or as little as possible. It's not anti-woman, but anti-spending

The government isn't paying for abortions or birth control, they're mandating that healthcare needs to cover those things because they're fucking important. If healthcare can cover something as inconsequential as Viagra, ED drugs, and penis pumps it should damn well cover birth control and abortions. If you're talking about something like Obamacare (or a single payer system that the Republicans prevented out of spite and paranoia) then yes, the government would provide abortions and birth control, because they'd be providing healthcare, which covers those things.

-Abortion. This is seen to an afront to women's rights. Take a look from a different perspective. The people on that side of the aisle see life as important and precious and see abortion as killing an innocent life. While I personally don't want legislation to make abortion illegal, I understand their point, and shudder that people use it as birth control when so many great things are out there to stop pregnancy

Their actions are in direct conflict with a woman's right to have control over her own body, making them opponents to women's rights by definition, regardless of what their motives are.

-Voter ID. This is probably the stupidest one I've heard. "It's RACIST" TO WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE IDs to VOTE!!! You have to have an ID to do almost anything in this country from writing and cashing checks, to traveling by car or air, ect. Why shouldn't you have to prove who you are to vote? An instead of talking about "disenfranchising voters", why don't those groups help underprivileged people GET THEIR STATE IDS!

Voter ID laws (as well as every other voter-specific law that Republicans keep trying to pass) are in place for the sole purpose of disenfranchising those who tend to vote Democrat, because Republicans don't like the idea of those people being allowed to vote without undergoing an unnecessary hassle. They're not in place to prevent the miniscule amount of voter fraud, they're in place to keep those without IDs, which includes a large amount of the poor and minorities, from voting, not incite them to get IDs.

-The same folks who say that the Government shouldn't pay for abortions or birth control on the basis of being anti-Government spending probably believe that the Government shouldn't pay for penis pumps or Viagra also.

Comparing penis pumps and Viagra to birth control or abortion is also a fallacious comparison, because abortions and birth control violate some people's religious beliefs, while penis pumps and Viagra (as far as I know) do not.

Also, the argument many make is that in the case of abortion, a woman's right to choose runs headfirst into the right to life of the unborn child. If you believe that a fetus is a person, and thus is entitled to the right of life (as written in the constitution) then one can believe that their right to life trumps a woman's right to choose. I don't agree with this idea, but I get it.

It's also worth noting that most polls show around 42% of women in the US as being "pro-life" (except in cases of risk to the mother's life). I have a hard time believing 42% of American women are anti-women's rights.

-Actually, the largest group who tend to not have IDs are the elderly, who overwhelmingly vote Republican. Also, on average, Republicans are actually slightly poorer than Democrats.

It's also worth noting that in most polls, blacks and latinos (the demographic supposedly targeted to have their votes suppressed) support voter-ID laws by well over 50%.

 

[Strain42]

While I haven't really liked many of his recent movies, I do enjoy watching Comic Book Men, and that's somewhere I still enjoy Kevin Smith.

I think that's a big part of why people like Kevin Smith. He's more or less...well...us. A normal dude who just kinda grew up and being interested in comics, movies, possibly video games.

I mean just watching Comic Book Men and listening to their conversations about "who is your favorite hottie heroine?" or "what team of supers would you put together" I just wanna hang out with them and join in.

 

[Grabehn]

I have to admit I didn't even listen to half of the review... Trejo is 69?!! Are you fucking kidding me?

 

[Brockyman]

Thanks for your thoughts.

One. John Stewart's ability to hide behind the "I'm an entertainer" is sickening. He is one of the people I should have refereed to in another post. Calling people "crazy" because they don't want the Federal government involved in their personal lives is part of the reason we can't get anywhere with anything.

If you believe in single payer/government run health care, meet me and the other "crazy" people on the field of ideas and debate instead of demonizing people for defaulting to freedom

One, I'm not a fanboy of Stewarts, so I'm not bothered that you don't like the guy. Two, I didn't say you were crazy, drop the red herring. Three, I see that you conveniently avoided mentioning how the democrat president defended the actions taken by NASA and the prosecution of whistle blowers.

One - Ok, that's fine
Two - John Stewart called people crazy, not you, sorry if that wasn't clear
Three - When did that come up? Whole thing was about healthcare and immigration. I didn't mention the NSA (NASA does the space stuff) or whistle blowers

 

[Habballah]

......Did bob try and say machette was a legit anger for the Latino community?
Bob are you latino at all? cause I am. No.
It was terrible.

 

[SAMAS]

Please, please stop with the "Well, we were on the good side a hundred years ago" argument. As the old question goes: "What have you done for me lately?" And the answer isn't good. I suggest you look up the term "Southern Strategy".

As opposed to the Democrats, who are nothing but a shining beacon of purity and all the is good in this world, right? Let's go to the "old question" and ask them(the democrats), what have you done for me lately?

Oh that's right, they decided to give companies a break but screw over individual people [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCXNeHmx9Qw&t=1m44s]. Better yet, the democrat administration have set up a website that doesn't even work despite the fact that poor college kids are being forced against there will to use the website if they don't want to be fined. Just for kicks, watch Kathleen Sebelius dodge all of John Stewart's questions about whether or not the Affordable Care Act website is working properly:


Gee, what else can I look at when I think of that question, "what have you done for me lately"? Oh, I see that under the current administration, Edward Snowden is treated as a criminal, Chelsea/Bradley Manning was illegally put in prison for three years prior to being convicted for any crime, and is now serving a 35 year prison sentencing. Meanwhile Julian Assange still faces questionable charges that might be used by the US to get him extradited if he ever leaves the Ecuadorean embassy.
That's not even getting into the whole NSA spying program and how Obama basically said that we should trade freedom for security(despite previously being against such views) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vixVPE4LBAU] and we should allow the PRISM program [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29] to continue to run.
And who could forget the fact that NONE of the CEO's of any of the major banks that caused the 2008 economic meltdown have faced any jail time, and instead, said companies received tax payer funded bailouts, all the while people are having their houses foreclosed on them.

Then there is the fact that Obama seemed to be dead set on military intervention in Syria despite the fast majority of the US being opposed to it.

And finally who could forget about Libya? A move that SNL rightfully criticized for having a questionable justification [http://videos.mediaite.com/video/SNLs-Muammar-Gaddafi-Has-Some-A].

Yeah, good thing those democrats are not as bad as those horrible republicans, right?

True, but none of that absolves the Republicans of any of their old or new shit.

Any that is the other reason why I still support the Dems over the GOP: As bad as the Democrats are, I have yet to be convinced that the Republican Party is not worse. At least the Democrats don't go around trying to pass or maintain laws that make other Americans into second-class citizens.

 

[Brockyman]

Hey guys, be careful on the forums, apparently someone reading these is a bit over-sensitive. Call me a racist by proxy is ok, but me replying they are an overbearing "D*****bag" was over the line. 2 warning for one post. Guess the guy was a friend of the admin

 

[SAMAS]

And of course Bob continues his "I have to talk about something ungodly liberal in every review" cliche. He's becoming like Brian in Family Guy, started out full of wit and humor as a straight man and devolving into a liberal cliche.

C'mom Bob, not everything has to be about something.

Also, border security isn't "anti-Mexican". While I know some people do have racist intentions, the majority of Americans that support border security just want to be secure. Most of them don't mind good, hardworking, TAX PAYING, LEGAL immigration, and most support making becoming legal easier for those who deserve it (i.e. not drug dealer, rapist ect).

Not everything in life is fueled by racism and sexism, and while they still do exist (and probably always will since stupid people can't be exterminated), it's not the end-all, be-all to everything, and consistently using it is like the boy crying wolf to the point most people don't care.

It's mostly a side effect of Republican policies from the 70's-90's biting them in the ass. Back when they decided to continue courting the Racist vote by shrouding it in the trappings of economic policies (yes, they actually did document that). Given that many of the same assholes are still in charge or have influence (and Republicans even now saying dumb racist/misogynist junk), you can see how it taints... well, damn near everything they say regarding anybody not White.

We can mainly agree on the last point so I cut it. I'm not against legalization of some drugs. Also, some proactive intervention could stop the violence from spilling across and helping the poor villagers that see the brunt of it every day.

To the point.

1. I don't get your "racist vote" thing. The Republican Party was founded by slave abolitionists in 1854 and included Abraham Lincoln. The Republican Party had a very strong voice in Civil Rights legislation, and mainly democrats, including George Wallace in Alabama, were Democrats. Yes, there asshole that are racists in all parties, but there isn't any directly racist actions I've ever seen.

Please, please stop with the "Well, we were on the good side a hundred years ago" argument. As the old question goes: "What have you done for me lately?" And the answer isn't good. I suggest you look up the term "Southern Strategy". Here's something to get you started -- an excerpt from a 1981 interview with Lee Atwater:

Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, "******, ******, ******." By 1968 you can't say "******" ? that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me ? because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "******, ******."[4]

Short version: in the Lyndon Johson passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964), pissing off much of the South, save for Texas ('cause it's LBJ!). Barry Goldwater and the Republican Party moved to take the Southern states by appealing to racist voters. It worked, and the situation you mentioned for that past hundred years or so reversed completely.

2. What "racist/misogynist junk" are you refering too? You whole "they say regarding anybody not White" already shows your bias, but I'd like to hear your opinion. I'll also give you a few examples others shoot out at as racist or misogynistic.

?just too much that you don?t know,? Bennett said. ?But I do know that it?s true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could ? if that were your sole purpose ? you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down.?
--Bill Bennet

"I struggled with it myself for a long time, and I realized that life is a gift from God, and I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something God intended to happen." -- Richard Mourdock (R)Indiana (former, thankfully)

"These Planned Parenthood women, the Code Pink women, and all of these women have been neutering American men and bringing us to the point of this incredible weakness...We are not going to have our men become subservient." Allen West (R) Florida (Also former, and proof that it's not only White Republicans that say dumb sh*t).

"If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down." Todd Akin (R) Missouri (Again, former, showing that people are much less tolerant of that thing anymore)

"The facts show that people who are raped ?who are truly raped?the juices don't flow, the body functions don't work and they don't get pregnant. Medical authorities agree that this is a rarity, if ever."
?former Rep. Henry Aldridge (R-N.C.)

"As long as it's inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it."
?Former Texas Republican gubernatorial contender Clayton Williams on rape

All of this was said in the past year.

-Government shouldn't pay for abortions or birth control. This one is always held up as misogynistic, and thinking that is honestly, stupid. Small government activists don't want the government to pay for anything, or as little as possible. It's not anti-woman, but anti-spending

I didn't say jack about this...

-Abortion. This is seen to an afront to women's rights. Take a look from a different perspective. The people on that side of the aisle see life as important and precious and see abortion as killing an innocent life. While I personally don't want legislation to make abortion illegal, I understand their point, and shudder that people use it as birth control when so many great things are out there to stop pregnancy

...Or this...

(And there are simpler ways of birth control than abortion, like pretty much all of them save for the surgical methods. And cheaper, too. So no, I don't see many women using abortion as a measure of birth control. That seems like getting a root canal every time you get a cavity.)

-Voter ID. This is probably the stupidest one I've heard. "It's RACIST" TO WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE IDs to VOTE!!! You have to have an ID to do almost anything in this country from writing and cashing checks, to traveling by car or air, ect. Why shouldn't you have to prove who you are to vote? An instead of talking about "disenfranchising voters", why don't those groups help underprivileged people GET THEIR STATE IDS!

...or this, for that matter.

First, I through in the abortion and voter ID arguments and a preemptive strike because those are 2 of the most asinine and stupid comments my liberal friends make to me.

I'm not going to deny those people said those things... I don't deny these people are stupid (although I do think Allen West did have a point in his). I know that you don't know me personally but I was outraged and screaming at the TV when many of those things were said, especially the rape comments...

But there are two things you're missing. One - these views don't represent myself, anyone I know, including the elected officials I know and friends, family, and people I discuss this with, and I believe the majority of conservatives/republicans/libertarians . Two - It doesn't represent the party itself. I know that we like to demonize organizations for the actions of a few, but most people with common sense don't agree.

I can fill the entire forum with racist, stupid, ignorant, mean spirited, and despicable things that Democrats and liberals say including much Higher Profile people such as Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Obama, Bill Mahr, Bill Ayers (I don't think anyone in your list ever sent bombs anywhere...), Jane Fonda (traitor), Joe Biden (just his crap alone could fill a book), Al Sharpton, Barney Frank, and many more.

The meat of what I'm saying is that REAL CHANGE will never, never, ever happen as long as BOTH SIDES continue to demonize each other. Border Security DOESN'T EQUAL HATE, Pro Life DOESN'T EQUAL HATE, ect...

I think my side of the aisle (I'm more a libertarian personally but conservative economics make more sense) needs to get rid of most of the people on the list above and take another look at things like Gay Marriage, Abortion, and other social issues and put aside personal religious believes for so others can be happy.

However, this isn't going to happen as long as people keep calling their group "racists" or "homophobes" or "bigots". MOST PEOPLE aren't, and just need education.

I was very anti gay marriage in my youth, and the more I heard things like that, the more my heart was hardened. I didn't hate anyone, I was just very religious. Then I met real people, with real situations and saw there was a better way.

I've never hated people of different colors. I think all humans have the genetic ability to do anything and should be treated equally in the eyes of the law, and of people. I think where things get dicey is when you though "culture" into it. A "stupid" white person would see a black or Hispanic man in a suit and tie, they think nothing of it, but they see a group of whites, blacks or hispanics, in a group with their pants to their ankles, sideways baseball hats, listening to loud threatening music, and yelling obsenities, then they will be scared. I'ts not because of the people doing those actions, it's the actions.

This same principle could be use for everything on both sides of the aisle.

To summarize, the whole list you went through is part of the problem... to pick and choose people to demonize a whole group is ... well... wasn't racism what you were fighting against?? If you REALLY feel that most Americans with a conservative/Republican leaning are racists, then we can't have a civilized debate. You need to look at yourself, realize that racists aren't in your soup and all around you, and try to work positively for what you believe.

I want you to go back and read my previous post. I mean really read it. I was not and am not saying all Republicans are racist. You and your friends are most likely alright as far as I'm concerned.

I'm talking specifically about the idiots who said that stuff. You may be a good dude, but you're not the ones saying that stuff on both CNN and Fox News. You're not the ones making it hard for your party to be seen as something besides the Grand Old White Guys Party.

I know you didn't say that you "Couldn't get over" Black people acting civilized in a restaurant. That was Bill O'Reily. But You are not the public face of your party.

THEY are. And the Republican Party is gonna have a long uphill battle to overcome your recent past when many of the people who were responsible for much of that past are still in high-ranking positions, and even low ranking guys (and officially non-ranking but otherwise influential guys like certain pundits) are still spouting GOWGP stuff like that.

And that is the problem I was talking about.

 

[Brockyman]

And of course Bob continues his "I have to talk about something ungodly liberal in every review" cliche. He's becoming like Brian in Family Guy, started out full of wit and humor as a straight man and devolving into a liberal cliche.

C'mom Bob, not everything has to be about something.

Also, border security isn't "anti-Mexican". While I know some people do have racist intentions, the majority of Americans that support border security just want to be secure. Most of them don't mind good, hardworking, TAX PAYING, LEGAL immigration, and most support making becoming legal easier for those who deserve it (i.e. not drug dealer, rapist ect).

Not everything in life is fueled by racism and sexism, and while they still do exist (and probably always will since stupid people can't be exterminated), it's not the end-all, be-all to everything, and consistently using it is like the boy crying wolf to the point most people don't care.

It's mostly a side effect of Republican policies from the 70's-90's biting them in the ass. Back when they decided to continue courting the Racist vote by shrouding it in the trappings of economic policies (yes, they actually did document that). Given that many of the same assholes are still in charge or have influence (and Republicans even now saying dumb racist/misogynist junk), you can see how it taints... well, damn near everything they say regarding anybody not White.

We can mainly agree on the last point so I cut it. I'm not against legalization of some drugs. Also, some proactive intervention could stop the violence from spilling across and helping the poor villagers that see the brunt of it every day.

To the point.

1. I don't get your "racist vote" thing. The Republican Party was founded by slave abolitionists in 1854 and included Abraham Lincoln. The Republican Party had a very strong voice in Civil Rights legislation, and mainly democrats, including George Wallace in Alabama, were Democrats. Yes, there asshole that are racists in all parties, but there isn't any directly racist actions I've ever seen.

Please, please stop with the "Well, we were on the good side a hundred years ago" argument. As the old question goes: "What have you done for me lately?" And the answer isn't good. I suggest you look up the term "Southern Strategy". Here's something to get you started -- an excerpt from a 1981 interview with Lee Atwater:

Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, "******, ******, ******." By 1968 you can't say "******" ? that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me ? because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "******, ******."[4]

Short version: in the Lyndon Johson passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964), pissing off much of the South, save for Texas ('cause it's LBJ!). Barry Goldwater and the Republican Party moved to take the Southern states by appealing to racist voters. It worked, and the situation you mentioned for that past hundred years or so reversed completely.

2. What "racist/misogynist junk" are you refering too? You whole "they say regarding anybody not White" already shows your bias, but I'd like to hear your opinion. I'll also give you a few examples others shoot out at as racist or misogynistic.

?just too much that you don?t know,? Bennett said. ?But I do know that it?s true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could ? if that were your sole purpose ? you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down.?
--Bill Bennet

"I struggled with it myself for a long time, and I realized that life is a gift from God, and I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something God intended to happen." -- Richard Mourdock (R)Indiana (former, thankfully)

"These Planned Parenthood women, the Code Pink women, and all of these women have been neutering American men and bringing us to the point of this incredible weakness...We are not going to have our men become subservient." Allen West (R) Florida (Also former, and proof that it's not only White Republicans that say dumb sh*t).

"If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down." Todd Akin (R) Missouri (Again, former, showing that people are much less tolerant of that thing anymore)

"The facts show that people who are raped ?who are truly raped?the juices don't flow, the body functions don't work and they don't get pregnant. Medical authorities agree that this is a rarity, if ever."
?former Rep. Henry Aldridge (R-N.C.)

"As long as it's inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it."
?Former Texas Republican gubernatorial contender Clayton Williams on rape

All of this was said in the past year.

-Government shouldn't pay for abortions or birth control. This one is always held up as misogynistic, and thinking that is honestly, stupid. Small government activists don't want the government to pay for anything, or as little as possible. It's not anti-woman, but anti-spending

I didn't say jack about this...

-Abortion. This is seen to an afront to women's rights. Take a look from a different perspective. The people on that side of the aisle see life as important and precious and see abortion as killing an innocent life. While I personally don't want legislation to make abortion illegal, I understand their point, and shudder that people use it as birth control when so many great things are out there to stop pregnancy

...Or this...

(And there are simpler ways of birth control than abortion, like pretty much all of them save for the surgical methods. And cheaper, too. So no, I don't see many women using abortion as a measure of birth control. That seems like getting a root canal every time you get a cavity.)

-Voter ID. This is probably the stupidest one I've heard. "It's RACIST" TO WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE IDs to VOTE!!! You have to have an ID to do almost anything in this country from writing and cashing checks, to traveling by car or air, ect. Why shouldn't you have to prove who you are to vote? An instead of talking about "disenfranchising voters", why don't those groups help underprivileged people GET THEIR STATE IDS!

...or this, for that matter.

First, I through in the abortion and voter ID arguments and a preemptive strike because those are 2 of the most asinine and stupid comments my liberal friends make to me.

I'm not going to deny those people said those things... I don't deny these people are stupid (although I do think Allen West did have a point in his). I know that you don't know me personally but I was outraged and screaming at the TV when many of those things were said, especially the rape comments...

But there are two things you're missing. One - these views don't represent myself, anyone I know, including the elected officials I know and friends, family, and people I discuss this with, and I believe the majority of conservatives/republicans/libertarians . Two - It doesn't represent the party itself. I know that we like to demonize organizations for the actions of a few, but most people with common sense don't agree.

I can fill the entire forum with racist, stupid, ignorant, mean spirited, and despicable things that Democrats and liberals say including much Higher Profile people such as Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Obama, Bill Mahr, Bill Ayers (I don't think anyone in your list ever sent bombs anywhere...), Jane Fonda (traitor), Joe Biden (just his crap alone could fill a book), Al Sharpton, Barney Frank, and many more.

The meat of what I'm saying is that REAL CHANGE will never, never, ever happen as long as BOTH SIDES continue to demonize each other. Border Security DOESN'T EQUAL HATE, Pro Life DOESN'T EQUAL HATE, ect...

I think my side of the aisle (I'm more a libertarian personally but conservative economics make more sense) needs to get rid of most of the people on the list above and take another look at things like Gay Marriage, Abortion, and other social issues and put aside personal religious believes for so others can be happy.

However, this isn't going to happen as long as people keep calling their group "racists" or "homophobes" or "bigots". MOST PEOPLE aren't, and just need education.

I was very anti gay marriage in my youth, and the more I heard things like that, the more my heart was hardened. I didn't hate anyone, I was just very religious. Then I met real people, with real situations and saw there was a better way.

I've never hated people of different colors. I think all humans have the genetic ability to do anything and should be treated equally in the eyes of the law, and of people. I think where things get dicey is when you though "culture" into it. A "stupid" white person would see a black or Hispanic man in a suit and tie, they think nothing of it, but they see a group of whites, blacks or hispanics, in a group with their pants to their ankles, sideways baseball hats, listening to loud threatening music, and yelling obsenities, then they will be scared. I'ts not because of the people doing those actions, it's the actions.

This same principle could be use for everything on both sides of the aisle.

To summarize, the whole list you went through is part of the problem... to pick and choose people to demonize a whole group is ... well... wasn't racism what you were fighting against?? If you REALLY feel that most Americans with a conservative/Republican leaning are racists, then we can't have a civilized debate. You need to look at yourself, realize that racists aren't in your soup and all around you, and try to work positively for what you believe.

I want you to go back and read my previous post. I mean really read it. I was not and am not saying all Republicans are racist. You and your friends are most likely alright as far as I'm concerned.

I'm talking specifically about the idiots who said that stuff. You may be a good dude, but you're not the ones saying that stuff on both CNN and Fox News. You're not the ones making it hard for your party to be seen as something besides the Grand Old White Guys Party.

I know you didn't say that you "Couldn't get over" Black people acting civilized in a restaurant. That was Bill O'Reily. But You are not the public face of your party.

THEY are. And the Republican Party is gonna have a long uphill battle to overcome your recent past when many of the people who were responsible for much of that past are still in high-ranking positions, and even low ranking guys (and officially non-ranking but otherwise influential guys like certain pundits) are still spouting GOWGP stuff like that.

And that is the problem I was talking about.

One: Thank you for understanding and taking me out of the fray.

Two: My desire was to show you that those people AREN'T the majority. Some good people will say stupid things, some stupid people are allowed to breath (true in both parties), but the majority of the people that are GOP/Conservative are good, nice, decent, hardworking people, most of who just want as little government in their lives and not be told what to think.
Also many have been brought up with religious upbringing by people who were mostly good matured, but didn't understand the many things (ignorance would be a good word here), and they are deeply conflicted about many issues. When people attack them and call them "haters" and "racists" when the intent isn't in their heart, it makes them less likely to work with you, and all the more reason to work against you.
And I believe with education and respectful discourse, the majority can understand and compromise fairly on today's issues

Three: Personally not a Republican, I'm a libertarian for the most part

Four: I'm glad you seem to think about things and don't go overboard like some people, but sometimes you have to let go of the past. We all do