Escapist Podcast: 025: Are Modern RPGs Ruining the Genre?

[veloper]

Modern RPGs may be ruining the genre, but this discussion and the piece of mr. Avellone that started this, misses the point.

Maps and quest compasses may ruin your experience if RPGs are all about exploration to you, but to me exploration is just a small, possibly optional, part of the RPG.

Then again, to me a "cRPG" is any computer game that is marketed as RPG, has some sort of experience or level system in it and is not a fullscale strategy or wargame.

The last 2 parts are rarely needed, because to date anything that says "RPG" on the box is hailed as an RPG by the gaming press and the gaming community and the games have been very diverse.
Games belonging to this super-genre then should be treated as simply games. Do all games need exploration? No, just examine the various genres. I certainly don't feel the need to waste hours watching my PC putting one foot before the other, even if it's in a pretty landscape and all that map and compass may do is save me time.

So that thing that hypothetically ruins modern RPGs will ruin modern games in general. The merits of things like quality control, patches and challenge should be examined.

 

[Doubler]

One of the reasons that wasn't mentioned in the podcast why males comment a lot on extremely sexualized females in video games is because these often betray a very low opinion of the male audience. I definitely think that plays a role as well.

 

[Formica Archonis]

Escapist Podcast Extended Edition! 7 minutes of bonus audio!

I fixed the ending cut off. It might take a little bit for it to propagate out to certain things like iTunes, but it plays all the way through on the site now.

Thanks for editing that audio, video editor.

Video audio tank editor ninja?

 

[Darkmantle]

I disagree with susan on what classifies as sexist. I don't think openly stating that you are going to be sexist excuses you from being sexist, it just shows you don't give a rat's ass. I tend to see if it's exploitive, if the gameplay/story is compromised to allow more close to nude shots or all the characters fighting moves reference sex.

I guess the main thing I look at is if the character has no defining features other than being sexy.

 

[Necrofudge]

I really liked the comparison to having a GPS and not being able to memorize roads in town.

I really related to this with Oblivion and Morrowind in a way.

With Morrowind, I pretty much memorized every path to every town and knew where every building was by the end of a single play-through.

With Oblivion, though, I didn't really figure out where locations on the map ever were. The marker pointing me to quest targets really crippled me in that sense.

In Morrowind, if I was asked to find a guy in a place, I would have a plan in my head on how to proceed. In Oblivion, without the map marker pointing at them, I'd have no idea.

This also made me explore less and "get to know my neighbors" in a way. I was pretty much familiar with every town and where everyone lived in Morrowind, while not giving two shits about the housing situation of NPCs in the latter game.

 

[Marik Bentusi]

I can't agree on what you said about fighting games. Like you don't expect story or character depth, just pick a char you like or whose style suits you.

While that may true for run-of-the-mill fighting games, there are notable exceptions to that. And I'm not even into fighting games at all. When you say something like that it's like saying "You don't expect story or character depth from an FPS, you just pick a gun you like or which style suits you". May be true for a lot out there, but there's a row of very notable exceptions.

Back to fighting games, I'm subscribed to a guy on YouTube that does Let's Plays and usually I watch his videos about a game I'm interested in buying, but sometimes I also simply use his videos to get in touch with genres I usually avoid. That's how I stumbled across footage of some Naruto Ultimate Ninja Ultra Super I-dunno fighting game, which had story, somewhat complex characters, dynamic boss battles with different strategies and even small "RPG elements" like an inventory system with some items being hotkey-bindable and usable in battle.

So I think fighting games aren't just memorizing stun combos anymore.

 

[ms_sunlight]

I was a bit disappointed that a lot of people didn't seem to get the point of a lot of the complaints about Skullgirls. That is, ho hum, more animated bouncing boobs - no-one was at all surprised or shocked at that, it's par for the course, especially in fighting games. (Soulcalibur or King of Fighters, anyone?) It's cheap, pandering and tedious, but not remarkable.

It was the stupid response to people pointing out that the character designs were cheap, pandering and tedious that really pissed people off. Saying (a) it can't be sexist because a woman designed those boobs and (b) accusing complainers of white knighting - that was never going to go down well. If the lead designer had just said, "we don't care, we want to make cartoony sexdoll characters because we think that's fun" in the first place, okay so it would still have been cheap, pandering and tedious, but at least it would be unashamedly so. Thing is, that didn't happen.

It's much like the whole Dickwolves [http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Dickwolves] business, really - the original comic annoyed a few people, but the arsehole responses from the Penny Arcade guys to the few people who said they didn't like the comic was what really wound people up.

Thing is, there are games I love that have ridiculous animated boobs in them - I'm replaying Dragon Quest 8 right now and that's full of cartoon boobs, one of your characters even learns a move called Puff-Puff to stun enemies with the sheer sexiness of her bosom! I don't expect games to be 100% right-on and progressive! I just hope that when someone says, "you know, that there, that's a bit crass and a bit sexist, eh?" that people will actually listen and think rather than going straight on the attack and being an arsehole.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

*headdesk* Fast travel,ect is not the problem the problem is diluted skills and leveling systems that make it too easy/simple to raise and diluted equipment thats over simplified.

 

[Eleima]

Regarding RPGs... I never use the fast travel in Skyrim and Oblivion. I feel the silt striders and other means of travel (and just plain walking) really give a definite feel of "openness" to a world which is completely defeated by the fast travel system.
As for Morrowind... I took notes and plenty of them. I have a binderful of maps, notes on quests and the like which helped me keep track of what I was doing and where I was supposed to go. It was fun and neat (and completely OCD of me) at the time, but I sure am glad that I don't have to do that anymore (lack of time, and definitely wasteful when it comes down to paper consumption).

Still lovin' the podcast, guys, look forward to it every week, it's become a part of my weekend (my routine is now this: Saturday morning I download the Escapist podcast and Sunday morning, I download the Car Talk podcast XD ).

 

[Vault101]

The big problem i have with most modern RPGs is how dammed sterile most of them are, DA, DAII, Oblivion and Skyrim suffered greatly from this. They simply don't have the right feel to them whereas an objectively lesser game like "The Witcher" just feels right even though its mechanics and polish are vastly outclassed on paper.

And that is the key point, on paper Skyrim is perfect, in reality it sufferes from a problem i have come to call "Bethesdafication" since Oblivion. Fallout 3, Fallout NV and Skyrim all suffer from it. The games are ultimately not great to follow the main story or even side stories in. You become so detached from the world that you just want to dick arround and the games increasingly punish dicking around, this is why i think modding is the ONLY way to go with a modern Bethesda game. They have this odd mind-numbing dullness to them.

The best new fusion of RPG elements i can think of has been the STALKER games, simply because first and foremost they NAIL the investment and immsersion in the world. Item based progression coupled with a lose quest structure and semi-sandbox world make for an experince that beats many 'propper' RPGs at their own game.

I disagree..fallout 3, because I found the world so interesting..I cared about that was going on

fallout NV was by obsidian..and was less of a "dick around" type game..it actually had a better story/charachters/ and I think it was structured different to fallou 3

 

[Falseprophet]

Re: RPGs

As a long time pen-and-paper RPG player, I still find a lot of cRPGs' conventions immersion-breaking. The plot of almost every cRPG is some variation of save the world, but every one of them will incorporate some elements of grinding, sidequesting, crafting and exploration. And I always feel if I were actually role-playing my character, I would think time is of the essence and I don't have time for sight-seeing or to learn a bunch of trades that normally take years to master when I can pay for these things with the gold from all the monsters I kill.

I actually find the plots of old 8-bit/16-bit era RPGs to be more immersive. They were usually along the lines of a) the Dark Lord has been in charge for a long time, but maybe a hero (i.e., YOU) can work long and hard and eventually become good enough to overthrow him and the status quo, b) you're out to right some smaller wrong (avenge your brother, save the princess) but later in the game you discover the stakes are much bigger than you thought, c) it's your job to go around dealing with monster infestations or explore dungeons, but later you learn something bigger is happening. Basically time didn't seem critical until very near the endgame.

Re: peripherals and immersion

A few years ago the arcade near my house got the Time Crisis 2 cabinet with the guns that have fake recoil. I got really good at it. But it absolutely ruined me for any other light gun game that didn't use recoil. Now when I play those games I feel like I'm just pointing a piece of plastic at the screen.

Back to fighting games, I'm subscribed to a guy on YouTube that does Let's Plays and usually I watch his videos about a game I'm interested in buying, but sometimes I also simply use his videos to get in touch with genres I usually avoid. That's how I stumbled across footage of some Naruto Ultimate Ninja Ultra Super I-dunno fighting game, which had story, somewhat complex characters, dynamic boss battles with different strategies and even small "RPG elements" like an inventory system with some items being hotkey-bindable and usable in battle.

So I think fighting games aren't just memorizing stun combos anymore.

Naruto's an exception, though, because it's an adaptation of an extremely long-running manga/anime series which the devs can reference for characterization, background and stories. Not that adaptations always make the game deeper--Marvel vs. Capcom isn't really deeper than any other fighting game--but the resources exist. Whereas I can't think of an original property fighting game that didn't ultimately have really shallow characters and plots.

 

[Dastardly]

025: Are Modern RPGs Ruining the Genre?

This week, we discuss if modern conveniences and mechanics are ruining the RPG genre. We also talk about Skullgirls, the claims of sexism against it and how gender effects the industry in other ways.

Watch Video

About Fast Travel, it serves a real purpose in most cases. The question we have to ask is, if I'm walking from Whiterun to Dawnstar, am I 'exploring,' or am I just 'commuting?' I'd say that probably the first couple of times, I'm exploring on the way... but after that?

Additionally, I'd argue that having fast travel encourages exploration for more players.

On a long trip, without a fast travel system:

I've got a long way to go, and I already know a major percentage of my play time is going to be spent on travel. For every step I take off the beaten path, I'm adding two steps to my journey -- the time it takes to get to the detour, and the time to get back on track. I'd have to know, without a doubt, that where I'm going is worth the time. As a result, there are a lot of curiosities I would miss because I can't guarantee it's worthwhile to take the time.

On a long trip, with a fast travel system:

I've got a long way to go to this new city, since I don't have it "discovered" yet. But when I see a new destination in the distance, I instantly know two things. One, if it's not worth the effort, I can easily regain the "lost time" by fast traveling to another landmark along the journey. Two, I now have a new "hub" from which I can explore that entire area at a later date -- I can just fast travel to that cave and branch out from there.

Think of your play time like fuel. If you have no way of conserving fuel, you're going to be less likely to take new or indirect routes, for fear of waste. But if you had a near-infinite tank of fuel, you'd be much more likely to go to new places or take the "road less traveled" because you're no longer worried about getting lost or stranded.

________

And the other side: To avoid over-populating the world with fast-travel points, a game can go the route of creating "hubs" instead. Rather than allowing you to fast travel to every discovered location, you can fast travel to a smaller (but still respectable) number of "crossroads" that will put you within striking distance of that destination, thus increasing your likelihood of exploring new locations or having random encounters.

_______

Overall: A sense of exploration or size in a game world isn't just about the amount of time it takes to travel or the presence/absence of guidance along the way. It's about whether the player feels they are traveling through Space (the game's world), or just through Time (the expenditure of minutes of their leisure time). Both will always be necessary, but we just have to ask ourselves of which we are making the player more aware.

In general, fast travel systems can provide a player important anchor points from which they feel they have permission to explore, with a lot less risk of losing time. As a result, they can focus on a greater sense of the game's space.

 

[Susan Arendt]

My brain is wired a certain way...

I had the desire to type what I was thinking while I listened to this Podcast. I go all over the place. I make little sense. I typed all kinda crap here.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Criticism

Dude, like, you guys, like say, 'like' more than than like, twenty times in like, the same two minute intro to the like, opening like theme song like thing.

Was I wrong to think you're all not from the west coast?

Let me humble you be obsessive while keeping track of the words used (improperly) in the rest of the podcast. Over under is at 50. Place your bets!

I like, um, totally shouldn't, like, do this, like, you know? The Valley called, and like, they um, want their shit back, um, you know? It's like too much of a bother to speack like, you know, an adult, when the norm has become like, this uh, you know, excessive, crap talk. Eh?

I got to the 28 minute mark, and so far I have (after the intro) 72 misuses of the word like. The word was used properly a few times, I didn't count those.

Step it up peoples.

Or is it like cool to be, you know, kinda off. You know what I mean, right? It's like, why
bother when it's like kewl to be be off.... right?

OT: You can make RPG games as difficult or as easy as you decide to. Disgaea and Elder Scrolls give YOU the option. It's actually a funny role playing 'option' that you can decide on for yourself.

Also: Skullgirlz is a dumb thing to talk about as sexism. This is boring extra advertising.

Susan, your thoughts on hot chicks baffle me. What 'hot chick' is trying to deceive you? Fighting game chicks? You serious?

It's all about the avatar for me in Soul Calibur. Just to name a game that I care about. It's not that she has the best moves, Seung Mina is NOT the character people pick based on her gameplay advantages. She is slow and dated as far as moves/characters go. She is practically a throw-away unlock these last few years. But damn... she is a 'hot chick'. Not a whore scamp, but I love her look, so I pick her. I want to play the character I like. Looks have a huge part of that.

Sexism is about intent....

Really Susan? Being honest about intent is your department now? Who is presenting the wrong impression about what girls are really like? Normal girls aren't hot? Hot girls aren't normal? Depth makes girls not hot?

I am lost by your rant on this one. (read the spoiler rant too please)

Spoiler: EDITS

EDIT: Is it not common place for people to judge on appearances, to a degree, anymore? Is everyone just telling themselves lies then?

EDIT 2: I like boobs. I like girls. I like girls with boobs. I really like girls that don't have boobs too. I can like some pics if needed.... ; P

EDIT 3: Anyone that talks about games needs to prove that they know what they are talking about. As far as I am concerned, that is like, totally, really like kinda, um... a fact, like ya know? Eh?

Knowing that you're a woman makes a difference. Fact. People shouldn't fear the fact that men and women are different.

Jess licked a PSP? That's not as hot as eating a mustard covered hotdog from a string without using your hands... eh? Who on the Escapist ran the Ninja Warrior course multiple times? Who on the Escapist does cosplay like a champ? (I hate that I feel obligated to defend a Mund)

Wow, you all seem to think we, 'being gamers' as a collective, are idiots.

I love this website. Thanks for dealing with me!

Just stop the whole 'like, you know, really, uhm, er, like' crap. Talk responsibly!

Spoiler: My Question for the Next Podcast

Do you think PC peripherals (mouse/keyboard) need to be available for the next generation of consoles, and do they need to be made integral for the ultimate gamer experience?

BTW... Thanks for your 'Thanks for Failing' article Susan!

I hate your twitters and emails : P

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're referencing with the "deceive you" comment.

Dude, like, you guys, like say, 'like' more than than like, twenty times in like, the same two minute intro to the like, opening like theme song like thing.

I got to the 28 minute mark, and so far I have (after the intro) 72 misuses of the word like. The word was used properly a few times, I didn't count those.

I love this website.

Yeah, it's just the people you hate.

 

[Flames66]

I agree about the fast travel, I always turn it find mods that deactivate it in RPG games so I am not tempted.

 

[bdcjacko]

No Simpsons references? I don't know if this was a real podcat.

 

[ms_sunlight]

At around the 28 minute mark you talk about unrealistic hot chicks are fine as long as the game isn't deceiving you. I don't grasp the difference between DoA and any other game that has an unrealistic hot chick.

No, I understood that (or at least I think I did!)

Games like DOA or fighting games often have highly objectified characters with absurd costumes and ridiculous cartoon breasts. Heck, they're used extensively in the promotional art and used as a selling point. (Anyone else remember all the fuss about jiggle physics in DOA: Extreme Beach Volleyball?) This is what it is - a lot of people think it's sexist, but at least it's overtly so and if you don't like that stuff it's easy to avoid.

What is more annoying is games that claim to have more substantial story and character elements, especially ones that make a pretence at well-rounded strong female characters, but which then cartoonify and objectify the female characters. Only the women, mind you. Examples would be RPGs like Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines or Star Ocean: The Last Hope.

The former is pandering and tacky but there you go some blokes seem to like that sort of thing, the latter is sometimes downright insulting and, I find. often quite jarring.

 

[Susan Arendt]

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're referencing with the "deceive you" comment.

I got to the 28 minute mark, and so far I have (after the intro) 72 misuses of the word like. The word was used properly a few times, I didn't count those.

I love this website.

Yeah, it's just the people you hate.

At around the 28 minute mark you talk about unrealistic hot chicks are fine as long as the game isn't deceiving you. I don't grasp the difference between DoA and any other game that has an unrealistic hot chick.

Also, I don't hate the people, just some things that they do. I'd wager everyone (who works) on the site is a decent person to say the least. I will say I hate the world like, and for some reason it just screamed at me every time it was used this podcast.

I should have edited my post (or just not rambled/bitched) much earlier, I was being an asshat.

I didn't say a game was trying to "deceive" you. My point was simply that if a game is straightforward about why its female characters are hot and sexy, I'm not offended by them. It's like going into a strip club - everyone knows what's going on inside, and you have the decision to enter or not based on your personal morals. What I take issue with is when a game gives you a half-naked, impossible female, then presents that as "normal". My go to example of this is Rachel from Ninja Gaiden. Is there any reason for her to be dressed/shaped like that? No. She's meant to be a warrior, but she's parading around like a whore, wiggling her hips for male appreciation.

That's simply my take on it, however.

Also, I should clarify something - I said in the podcast that a game being honest about why it's putting in a bunch of hot chicks isn't sexist. What I should've said was, it's sexist, but doesn't bother me. I find some sexism offensive, and other sexism to be harmless. Again, your mileage may vary.

I apologize to everyone who thought I was saying that stuffing your game full of half-naked teenagers wasn't sexist. I wasn't nearly clear enough about that.