European Union vs. North American Union

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Nomad

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Aug 3, 2008
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manaman said:
Well I guess while we are at it we might as well take away any advantage the US has
No more advantages are removed from the US than from the EU. The EU have also lost their atomic bombs. The EU have also lost the NATO partnership. The EU have also lost their trading and diplomatic advantages.

manaman said:
You made this "mental exercise" into a game of cops and robbers with the kids all running around screaming "I shot you, bang bang" While the other kid just runs away screaming "nah uh, you missed"

Seriously you have a definite bias for the EU, and you keep imposing restrictions on the mental exercise as new points you never thought of crop up. Besides it was supposed to be Canada, US, and Mexico, so why does nobody seem to talk about anyone else in the fight but the US.
JimmerDunda said:
UPDATE: Disregard nuclear technology.
*I* have not made this mental exercise into anything. *I* have not imposed any restrictions. *I* simply read the original post asking the question and setting the restrictions. Maybe you should do the same, because it clearly states "no nukes" - which is the only restriction I'm reminding people about. The thing about NATO is pretty self-explanatory. An alliance comprised primarily of two enemies is unlikely to prevail for very long - how exactly would the EU members of NATO go about defending the US from themselves and vice versa?

As for Canada and Mexico... Noone is excluding their part in this. But just like Slovakia plays a lesser role than France for the EU, Mexico plays a lesser role than the USA in the NAU. If you look around, you'll see people are discussing the capabilities of Mexico and Canada as well, but the US is naturally a more frequently discussed part of the scenario simply because they're a bigger factor.

neoman10 said:
(even Sweden and UK are on there, even though they have no Euro...yet)
And since we voted no on the Euro matter in a referendum, hopefully we never will either. Unfortunately, the only result of that referendum was ensuring we won't get the chance to say no again.
 

Anarchy In Detroit

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JimmerDunda said:
So time for everyone's daily military situation. This one is on a continental scale. Say a large scale war breaks out between the Union and the Union of North America.(Not just USA)

I think this would be close to impossible to determine. Both Unions are pretty equal in population. I would lean towards the North American Union(Well I am an American), the USA has the most elite military in the world and Canada is also a very elite military and good allies with the USA. Mexico I worry about because their ground military is not is strong as most countries, mainly due to dealing with drug trafficking problems within their own nation, they also have almost no tanks. Their Navy however is something not turn a blind eye to.

What do others think?

UPDATE: Disregard nuclear technology.
Off the bat I think American Union. However, now I am truly stumped.

America has lost a lot of wars, and currently runs wars like a fucking retard. My fellow Americans, doing things the same way over and over will not produce different results. Also we have pissed away the manufacturing might that served us so well in two World Wars. It simply does not exist anymore. I think we'd ***** about having to pay taxes to keep the war going, ***** about giving up material, and ***** about having to do jobs that don't consist of fucking around in a cubicle. Canada? I don't think Canada would really want to fight anyone anyways. Mexico would fight other people if they weren't dragged down by fighting amongst themselves like the last couple hundred years.

However, the Europeans could do things smarter... if they don't ***** and argue with each other first. I like Europeans but generally no matter what country it is you're all extremely fucking proud of yourselves (kind of like, well, Americans). Their whole effort would probably go tits up based on some language in an agreement or something ridiculous, which would cause everyone to argue amongst themselves (at a national level) and with others (at an international level).

Whatever. This is a silly scenario really.
 

Lotet

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Aug 28, 2009
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I'm sorry for not reading the whole thread but...

equal Populations? no, you're thinking land mass, Europe has a higher population than America. the British army alone can account for half of Americans strength, let alone the entire of Europe. remember that these are individual countries that have forced their way to a seat of power, they didn't stop military production just because the entirety of Europe had a nice total

and lets face it, America doesn't exactly have the best War history. what am I talking about? you guys won WW2? no, you human waved WW2, the massive Airborne invasion included the allies as well. hell, at that point, if there was a fight between Germany and America the USA would be wiped off the map, heck, your Nukes and Rockets were made by Jewish German scientists. how are you doing in you war for the oil rigs right now eh? how about Vietnam, you know, that place you retreated from? oh and how could I forget your war of independence from the British, you really believe you managed to defeat the country that own the largest territory across the world? you think George Washington came in and turn the losing battles into victories? ha, it was the French or as you call them now, the Canadians, yes, America only exists today because the Canadians decided to help the colonies

sorry again, this time about being a Bastard, I just like history and I hate how so many American have no idea as to the limitations of their power
 

HerrBobo

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Jun 3, 2008
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neoman10 said:
HerrBobo said:
EU.

Westren Europen armies are, genrally, the best trained and equipped in the world. On top of that there are the very millitant Eastren Bloc and Russia!
will someone tell me when Russia got in the EU? I'm looking a 50 cent coin now and see no Russia (even Sweden and UK are on there, even though they have no Euro...yet)
Ah! My bad, my bad. I forgot the op said EU. You are right, Russia is not in the EU.
 

HerrBobo

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zuluking187 said:
HerrBobo said:
Yaaaaawn.

And your point is?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8423112/
So they're both fat, you still haven't given any proof that western armies are better trained or equipped.
Well, simply put. The US has not fought well in a war in 50 years. Yes, they have a large army and some great weapons but the fight and conduct a war very badly. They have not had a proper win since '45.
 

KaiRai

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Jun 2, 2008
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fix-the-spade said:
The Americans would win in short order.

Us Europeans would be too busy arguing with each other to actually send out an army.
Yeah.

The freaking Germans would be trying to run everything again.
/political backlash.

The EU is too disorganised, the NAU would have invaded us and subsequently pillaged the village by the tie the French prime minister had stopped banging his truly truly sexy wife.
 

darthzew

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North America. The United States could probably take Europe on its own if it needed to.
 

darkshivers

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Oct 1, 2009
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Well america has won half a war and thats all for america's war history they lost the res. the british army is one of the best and is truely greater than the american forces but at the sum of it where fighting together as brothers my brothers in the army fighting with americans.
 

HerrBobo

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shadowstriker86 said:
NAU would win. Why? Experience. In as little as 200+ years from this country's founding we've had at least 10 major wars

Revolutionary
Civil
Spanish-American
World War 1
World War 2
Korea
Vietnam
Cold War (not that much action but still considered a war)
Desert Storm
Iraq Operation (not a war because an operation means theres a hidden agenda)

i know im missing some but still, i think experience is what counts and considering we'd be goin up against a place we've been in before, have moles and bases there as well, i think the NAU has the advantage
Sorry, but that is a really strange point. How can you say the US's experience is an advantage when it is one of the youngest Nations in thw world?

US has been fighting wars for 200 years? Well Europens have been fighting wars for 2,000.
 

fuzzball

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Zac_Dai said:
Seeing as right now we can't even win a war in a shithole like Afghanistan I doubt either side would make any good progress.
That is not a standard war, this war would be a lot more straight forward
 

shadowstriker86

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HerrBobo said:
shadowstriker86 said:
NAU would win. Why? Experience. In as little as 200+ years from this country's founding we've had at least 10 major wars

Revolutionary
Civil
Spanish-American
World War 1
World War 2
Korea
Vietnam
Cold War (not that much action but still considered a war)
Desert Storm
Iraq Operation (not a war because an operation means theres a hidden agenda)

i know im missing some but still, i think experience is what counts and considering we'd be goin up against a place we've been in before, have moles and bases there as well, i think the NAU has the advantage
Sorry, but that is a really strange point. How can you say the US's experience is an advantage when it is one of the youngest Nations in thw world?

US has been fighting wars for 200 years? Well Europens have been fighting wars for 2,000.
you know what thats true i didnt even think about that
 

Silva

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Apr 13, 2009
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Between these two groups, militarily speaking, I would argue that North America has an advantage.

1) Much more nuclear weapons exist in the North American arsenal. It also helps the NA side that these weapons are in a centralised system with most of the world within range of missile fire.
2) A smaller number of governments involved (and a more focused population) on the NA side implies a faster ability to get into "total war" quickly. And let's face it, this is a hypothetical conflict on a scale similar to that of World War II. It would most likely be necessary to have a total war approach in order to actually defeat the opposing forces.
3) Language is no barrier to operations for the NA. Virtually all fighters would speak English, as opposed to an EU force with many, many different languages making internal communication far harder.

The NA force would, however, suffer one crippling disadvantage, unless this all happens in some future scenario where they rely much more heavily on China (presumably neutral) for trade. That is, the EU is the main source of trade for the US, which it relies on for a vast amount of its riches. Without that, it would be very difficult to survive. The US is, after all, the antithesis of self-sufficiency as countries go. Meanwhile, the economics would be in favour of the EU, which within itself is much more self-sufficient.

Just because the NA has an advantage, doesn't mean that it would win. If nuclear weaponry actually got used, it would likely result in returning fire. And unlike in Fallout 3, this would lead to nuclear winter and the destruction of virtually all living species (except the cockroach and a few other bugs; it's hardly very fun). A fallout shelter would not protect people from the kind of cold that would result, or create a steady source of food.

Thankfully, such a conflict is virtually unthinkable as history stands.

Skeleon said:
McCa said:
wait.. He spelt Muslim "moslem?" And the continues to sprout ignorance?
His profile says USA, but interestingly enough, "Moslem" is actually the correct German spelling for "Muslim". I dunno if any other languages use the same spelling as us Germans, though.
It's interesting, there's a lot of mythology surrounding those phonetically similar terms.

This is the best source that I've found on how those two words work:

http://hnn.us/articles/524.html

So the words are interchangable in use, though not in meaning. I've seen both used in sources from England, Australia, and even America. So it's not just a German thing to call the ethnic group "Moslems". However, it would appear that these days it's more politically correct to call them "Muslims".

Still, one could use either without meaning any offense intended. It's certainly not a sign of ignorance to call the group that, when commonly the other spelling is used without any such intention.
 

Silva

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Apr 13, 2009
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To add to my earlier opinion, there are really too many wild cards in this hypothetical. The stance of the whole of Asia would depend on numerous factors, such as the reason for the war, who starts it, the fallout from whatever collapses happen in international government as a result... each of these things could change the scenario completely. After all, Asia represents about half of the world's population, and its military might would go in all sorts of directions if this occurred.

ERadical said:
Mmm and us a Australians will be goin' "wtf mate?"
Cookie for reference
The End of Ze World.

"But I am le tired."

Best Flash video ever.
 

akIceman

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Mar 11, 2009
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darkless said:
freakonaleash said:
hey why doesn't anyone mention the navy SEALS,aka the most elite special force in the world.
because they aren't the most Elite special forces in the world that title goes to Spetsnaz, SAS or the Sayeret Matkal of isreal.
Delta Force. End of story. SAS and SEALS are about on par (maybe the SAS has a slight edge). The Royal Marines are about on par with the US Marines (Less Force Recon). The US Army has the Rangers and Green Berets, and there are more Americans that British overall, so that is roughly a draw.
 

akIceman

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Mar 11, 2009
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If all the Pacific forces were transfered to the US mainland, all the US forces in Europe and the Middle East and Africa, etc. were recalled, it is a strictly conventional war (no nukes), AND the rest of the world doesn't take sides, I would have to say America and Canada alone would win, simply because they have a greater ability to project force than any European power. The EU numerical advantage in air power would be counteracted by the F-22 Raptor (although there are only 145 at present, they have consistantly demostrated in exercises such as Red Flag the ability to dominate opponents, even when outnumbered), and the strike capabilities of the US Navy. In addition, the EU has NO strategic bombers with a bombload approaching that of the B-52 (~ 70,000lbs) or range (~4,400 mi without refueling). The ability to use B-52s would be due to the local air superiority the Naval Strike Groups would create. In addition, B-52s have flown on such missions recently-bombing Iraq from Guam. The US would also use its B-2 stealth bomobers to takeout key targets for follow-on forces. The US also has greater heavy equipment transportation (tank, APC,etc.) capabilities than any of the EU powers. I don't mean to offend anyone, but Mexico's military would be next to useless against a first-world country, except as a distraction, due to a severe inability to transport its forces over large distances and the relatively poor training of its military. When it comes to armor warfare, things get fuzzy. The Abrams, Leopard 2, Challenger, and Leclerc are all roughly equal in capability, with a slight edge to the Abrams in urban environments when they are equipped with an Urban Survival Kit. SO all in all, the NAU would have the edge in air/naval power, rough draw in land power projection capabilities. It would really come down to strategies, luck, and most of all LOGISTICS-because people need food, vehicles need fuel, and weapons need ammunition.
 

akIceman

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Mar 11, 2009
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Oh, and if it WAS an nuke war 1)no-one would really win (except the aliens), 2) the US has more nukes than anyone but the Russians, and 3) the US has the better ability to deliever said nukes.
 

akIceman

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Mar 11, 2009
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ERadical said:
Mmm and us a Australians will be goin' "wtf mate?"
Cookie for reference
And as the only remaining first world counties lucky enough to be far away from any nuclear exchanges, Australia, New Zeland, and Japan become the world's sole superpowers, eventually getting into a Cold War with China and India.
 

Zac_Dai

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fuzzball said:
Zac_Dai said:
Seeing as right now we can't even win a war in a shithole like Afghanistan I doubt either side would make any good progress.
That is not a standard war, this war would be a lot more straight forward
Straight forward how?

The op doesn't even mention what the victory conditions are.

Is the EU invading North America or is it the other way round? Then if the aim is to subdue the populace and begin ruling over a new empire, I hardly think thats going be straight forward if history is anything to go by.

So if modern western armies can't even inflict a decisive defeat on the Taliban with the sheer technological advantage they have I can't even begin to imagine how they could do it to say a whole continent.