Evolution & Atheism... Is it really more plausible?

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Spygon

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that is the stupid thing with this arguement neither side can win unless god turns up or someone else comes back from the dead and saying god doesnt (doubt alot of people would believe this guy if he did).

So we dont know i think everybody should have there own beliefs and should stop trying to push theirs on others.So let all party instead.
 

Skeleon

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Island said:
2. if we are to assume Darwinism is correct in the beginning every one of the billions of species on the planet had equal opportunity to evolve to the same intellectual levels as mankind so why are we the only ones driving cars and going to the moon?
Because evolution is not targeted. It does not go from simple to complex for complexity's sake.
If a single-celled organism is effective at survivng, there's no need to change the strategy. This is why a lot of ancient organisms still exist today.
Anyway, there were other highly intelligent species, such as the neanderthal, who also happened to be primates. The large brain capacity required for our level of sophistication is only seen in a small number of animals, such as other monkeys, dolphins and whales and very few birds.
It's quite believable that in a couple of million years any of those could evolve to a point similar to ourselves. We just were among the first because the apes had a nice advantage over all the others: Opposable thumbs.
While some dolphins and birds use tools as well, the ability to grip stuff with your hands allows for far more complicated use of tools.
 

Lemon Of Life

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I'll go along with this. If you think about it, whether it is true or not, religion is stupid and a complete mess. Sure, it can bring happinness and reassurance to people, but it also divides the world up into large groups, who frequently despise each other. How can you be, say, a Jew and believe that your religion is the right one when you are aware that there are a multitude of other religions which are as or more important than yours, and also knowing that if you were born in Turkey (for example)then you would (99 percent of the time) be a Muslim and have the same stance and unwavering belief in that religion.

Religion is also born out of fear, hate and naivety. It helps justify rascism, murder and even genocides. It leads to women being treated unfairly and despicably. It is used to frighten people. It can also be viewed as a scam, with bishops growing rich from manipulating people to follow their belief, completely contradicting their 'beliefs'. I'm not saying that all religious people are evil and hate-filled, only very few are like this. There are as many evil atheists as believers, but it is often used as a means to channel anger and violence. From the witch-killings in Africa to the Spanish Inquisition, religion can only be seen as wrong.
 

crepesack

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THE FLINSTONES WAS A DOCUMENTARY [/thread]

No i don't believe in creationism or intelligent design i don't need to explain why i believe evolution, i have "faith" in it. Ninja'd

edit: i was a christian before i decided "this is bs" and became an atheist and evolutionist.
remember that religion and evolution is not mutually exclusive.
 

HapiN

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Surely all religious threads asking for proof of evolution or proof of god are in a sense pointless. The defining feature of faith, which religion is based around is actively dependent on believing something for which there is no proof. While scientific beliefs depend on requiring proof for existence then believing in that. So someone from a faith based background cannot ask or demand proof for someone elses beliefs when they cannot and due to the nature of faith in itself literally cannot provide proof for their own beliefs. This is of course mirrored that if you can't accept another persons views due to their being lack of proof, unless you can provide irrefutable concrete evidence you can't ask for it in return.

This doesn't even take into account different religions. Atheism is easy to pick on because it is a relatively new "religion" a debate between Christianity and Hinduism wouldn't happen or i assume be allowed on these forums and i can imagine cause a hell of a lot more grief.

Any religious debate is entirely based around opinions which people have settled on so will not refute. An outside being with no prior knowledge of either which was forced to choose between Atheism and Christianity would probably choose Atheism as Christianity requires faith, however they could just as easily be told originally that the bible is true and follow Christianity after all that is how a religion can be an intrinsic part of a culture. Children of religious societies are bought up believing in religion even when they don't understand what it is, we are just lucky that our society is so diverse we have the freedom to make the choices for ourselves. Of course this isn't a debate different cultures so nuff said.

My personal beliefs are of course irrelavent

If something doesn't make sense i apologise I'm just getting some ideas that were floating around my head since i started reading this post down.
 

Arqus_Zed

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Never in my entire life have I seen an off-topic forum with so many religion-based topics as the one of The Escapist.

I've only been active on two other forums before, but still...

I am a Roman Christian Catholic.

I've got an ASO math & sciences high school diploma. I'm doin' multimedia in college right now (three years total and I'm about to start my final year) and I'm planning to do something with biology or physics afterwards ('cause I decided I really miss those two things...). So yeah, evolution theories and such don't really have any secrets for me.

But I also have major interests in Theology and mythology. I was actually thinking of doin' theology down in Louvain, but everyone except my parents -especially my old chemistry teacher- totally didn't like that idea. So yeah, decided to keep that a hobby instead, such as readin' Dante Alighieri and John Milton in my spare time.

Now, fact is, I don't like most athiests (stress on 'most'), simply because they're jerks.
If you wanna know why, sent me a personal message and I'll give you the rant. Just don't go quote & reply on my ass till this thread has flames coming out of it the size of the river Phlegethon!

I need to believe in God to maintain my sanity.
 

BmC

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These threads...
They always make me want to RAGE so hard.
Post something along the lines:
STOP DISCUSSING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER USING THE SAME ARGUMENTS AND COUNTER-ARGUMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN USED HUNDRED TIMES BEFORE, THREADS/DISCUSSIONS LIKE THIS ARE POINTLESS AND THEY LEAD TO NOWHERE.
-
Oh well.
Everything's pointless.
 

Superbeast

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Is Evolution more plausible than Creationism? Evolution is more plausible because of the weight of evidence supporting evolution as a means to the existence of higher life from single-celled organisms. I am not providing evidence for the OP because numerous posters before me have done so quite sufficiently.

But, before those of a religious persuasion get their knickers in a twist, this doesn't therefore mean that the idea of a "Great Creator" is unplausible (by the very definition of "plausible" as it cannot be proved or disproved it is still plausible) - just, IMO, less likely as there is no evidence to back it up. Attenborough's quote linked to earlier (essentially "If there is a creator, as people claim a hummingbird is so beautiful a god must have made it, then the creator also made the worm eating through the eyeball of the 2 year old boy, and I do not believe such a being as benevolent of a god would do such a thing ") always springs to mind here.

Anyways, what I really wanted to say in regards to this topic is an old piece of wisdom regarding Abrahamic religions and atheism/anti-theism:

"When you can describe to my why you only believe in a single, omni-potent being as opposed to a pantheon of deities - then you will understand why I believe exactly what you do, just with one less god involved".

Or words to that effect. It's something to think about with regards to the thread - and how that, regardless of how you believe the universe came to be (via the "Big Bang Theory" or created by a god(s)) you cannot deny evolution takes place is it is observable in real-time in micro-organisms and in macro-organisms via fossil records (applying the logic of short-term natural selection and the evidence documented on the microscopic scale to the macro scale). I don't see why religion and science have to disagree on this issue, though I guess it does suggest that if a religious scripture needs to be more "interpreted" than taken as "literal" (ie creation of the world in 6 days and God creating Man in his image) then it undercuts the clout the religion has in other areas by presenting "previous cause" for other, core, Christian/Judaic/Islamic views to be taken "with a pinch of salt" and interpreted in different ways too (which is as dangerous as it is beneficial, re: Islamic extremists and the perverted interpretation of the Qu'ran).
 

grimsprice

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EcoEclipse said:
grimsprice said:
EcoEclipse said:
I'm deist, but I believe in the Christian God. Therefore, I don't believe the Bible is as accurate as it's claimed. I'm also into the Intelligent Design idea. So, yeah evolution is plausible, but it had to start somewhere.
Damn, as i rolled past the Deist claim my respect for you was growing (I have an innate respect for Deists, don't ask why) and it hit its crescendo at the Bible line. But then sank through my shoes when you mentioned intelligent design. You should probably know that intelligent design proponents aren't quite the people you think they are.

Here is a cell biologist explaining Intelligent design as we know of it in America. I realize that you probably mean a 'God starts evolution' sort of thing. But as it is known in the scientific communities 'intelligent design' is just creationism in disguise.

http://fora.tv/2008/08/18/Kenneth_Miller_on_Evolution_and_Intelligent_Design
Yeah, "God starts evolution" was where I was headed, and I used my basic knowledges to explain it... It didn't occur to me to look more into my claims.
Totally understandable. e-hugs all round for another intelligent thinking person! :)
 

Nigh Invulnerable

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WanderFreak said:
Religion and science will never coexist peacefully, because you have the two strongest fundamental aspects of human nature: faith, and truth. Do not flame me because I say truth, or I will force you to ride the triceratops with the fucking saddle. What I mean is, science gives answers and satisfies the human need for knowledge. We need to know WHY things are. Hence why Amelia Earhart is still studied even though all she was was some chick who crashed a plane. We don't know what happened, so we need to find out. Faith on the other hand gives a different sort of knowledge. Rather than breaking things down into their little bits, they look at a bigger picture that seems to explain things. Hence, faith. It's fire and water, the two cannot exist in the same place, which is why quite frankly we should stop bothering with this discussion.

Now watch as ten people quote lines from my post out of context and point out how I'm wrong.
I fail to see how faith and science are mutually exclusive. People who claim otherwise are just being closed minded.
 

Zacharine

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Bigeyez said:
Island said:
two quick questions:

1. where did matter itself come from? lets start at absolute zero at nothingness and explain where everything came from scientifically.

2. if we are to assume Darwinism is correct in the beginning every one of the billions of species on the planet had equal opportunity to evolve to the same intellectual levels as mankind so why are we the only ones driving cars and going to the moon?

this post is not meant to sound rude or anything so if you reply to it please do so in the same kind manner.
1) The Big Bang theory doesn't have us starting at absolute zero. The current form of the theory is something along the lines of "All the matter in the universe was infinitely compressed onto an infinitely small space which exploded releasing all matter into what we see today". Thats the gist of it anyways.
Actually you both got #1 wrong. Understandable, because those are the populist claims. Here's a link on to a possibility of how Big Bang, an expansion of space (not in space, of space. This matters, believe me), might have started from almost nothingness.

Also, At Big Bang:Time, space, all matter and energy and even the forces that govern them were compressed so tightly that the average temperature would have been in excess of billions of degrees. It was so hot and dense that it would have been impossible to seperate electromagnetic force from the nuclear forces or even from gravitation: There was just that much energy at that state. We do not know what that state would have acted like, because re-creating such a state for observation would require as much energy as was contained in the Big Bang. No single place in the universe...heck, entire galaxies don't have that kind of energy to create such a state.

Anyways, "Faster Than The Speed Of Light (1): The Universe - Created Out Of Nothing?" People might also want to check out the other parts.

 

Skeleon

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Island said:
Uhm...
The key here is that while it's based on random mutations, the development itself is not completely random. Mutations that are a disadvantage are removed from the gene pool through the environmental conditions. Not anything will survive (in fact, heavily mutated embryos rarely survive during the pregnancy).
However, one should always remember that mutations occur all the time and most of them are too minor to truly affect a creature's survival. It's only when minor mutations add up over the course of many, many generations that we can, retrospectively, see the species change.

We do have plenty of fossils that show various stages of human development, saying otherwise is just wrong ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_erectus, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_habilis and there are many more).

A bombardier beetle without a separation as such would not survive, true. And if it can't survive, it can't spawn children with similar genes.
As for how it could have evolved to that point: Well, I haven't read up on that specific species, but considering it'd require two different glands to produce these chemicals, it stands to reason they developed separately and any mutation that led to a loss of said separation was removed from the gene pool.

Giraffes are actually a great example for evolutionists.
In fact, Darwin based some of his theories upon them, so I'll gladly take the opportunity to recount this.
I'd have to tell a little tale about it, but I'm willing to take the time.

Imagine that, quite a long time ago, the ancestors of modern giraffes lived in the savanna. Few trees were there, but they were plentiful in leaves. Interestingly, these giraffes had rather short necks, but since there was a lot of food around, it didn't matter so much.
Now, as it is with humans, giraffes grow different in size, some are larger, some are shorter, some have longer necks, some shorter. At that time, however, all giraffes had necks significantly shorter than they are today, even the largest of the herd.
Now, a severe draught hits. We know from geological records that phases of increased temperature and phases of extreme coldness alternate naturally.
This time, however, the draught continues for several years. The savanna becomes drier and drier, the plants have difficulty to grow.
The rather short giraffes suffer as well, since their food source is dwindling. All the leaves on the lower branches in an area of many, many square miles have already been eaten and they cannot reach the higher branches because of their short necks.
However, as there are differently proportioned giraffes, some of them have an easier time reaching a few of the higher branches. While their shorter-necked cousins have a higher risk of starving, these with the slightly longer neck survive at a higher rate. And therefore they can produce more offspring which, in turn, also have slightly longer necks.
Now... imagine this happening over the course of not thousands but millions of years. Again and again. What starts off as a minor change in neck-length slowly becomes bigger and bigger as the population of short-necked animals dwindles and the longer-neck variant continues to produce offspring. And this, in a simplified and shortened way, is how giraffes developed long necks.

The argument about "great design", too, is a flawed one. We (as well as our animal cousins) aren't really that great. There are plenty of weak points in our structure as well as vestigial organs that serve no purpose any longer. However, both these things remain within us till today because they were not enough of a hinderance to significantly reduce reproduction.

Examples include the inguinal rings, where herniae occur. The lumbosacral part of the spine, where - because of upright walking - mechanical stresses lead to an increased occurance of backpain and herniated disks (after all, we too started of as quadrupedal animals and aren't perfectly adapted to walking upright). It further includes the ligament tying truncus coeliacus and intestine together, where the latter may strangle itself. The list goes on. Much of it can be seen when looking at the anatomy of the human body or typical diseases that haunt us as a species. All of these things, however, were not harmful enough to be removed from the gene pool.
Vestigial organs, there's a list of them on wiki if you're interested.
If we truly were designed, it'd have been a pretty lazy and careless designer.

The fact of the matter is that we were created through eons of mutation and natural selection. It's an amazing process, no doubt about that, but there's also no doubt about it in the scientific community that both the astounding things as well as the weaknesses within us are the result of natural selection.

As for your last sentiment, this is definitely a good way to go about it. After all, science is all about doubting everything you see before you and replacing current theories with new ones when new and better evidence comes along. However, intelligent design has no support whatsoever beyond being simpler. But let me ask you this: What's the simpler solution? Zeus throwing bolts of lightning or a build-up of electrical potential between cloud and ground, resulting in an electrical discharge with all its implications about ions and electrons and electric fields? Is the simplified Occam's Razor (simplest answer = best answer) really true? Doesn't it just lead us to accepting things we believe we know about the world instead of doubting them and researching them in earnest? Wouldn't this kind of acceptance result in total stagnation?

Anyway, until something better than the current theory of evolution comes along, I'll stick with it.
 

Exuberance

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This thread is either full of trolls or those who are too lazy/ignorant to read into something called Abiogenesis, it addresses how non-living material 'became' living. Also Evolution doesn't talk about the origin of life only what happened after. Stop spending your life watching Faux news or reading the bible.
 

Seanchaidh

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Island said:
and then there are the animals like the bombardier beetle who stores two reactant chemical compounds, hydroquinone and hydrogen-peroxide in separate reservoirs in the rear tip of its abdomen. if you take any piece away from its design you just have a beetle that blows it self up. if we're to believe it evolved a step at a time how did it ever survive?
Sounds like a case of one of those compounds for whatever reason appearing in two reservoirs, then a mutation causing a different enzyme (or whatever) to be made in one of them, causing the difference and sudden awesome firepower. Not really all that weird if you think about it, given 4 billion years. These are the kinds of questions that make biology interesting, not the kinds of questions that show anything wrong with evolution. Your answer is to just throw up your hands... that's neither scientific nor convincing.
 

TheGreatCoolEnergy

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I honnestly think that neither of the explanations can capture the picture. Science is prrof without hope, and religion is hope without proof.
 

theultimateend

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xmetatr0nx said:
Oh, lord. This never stops does it. Does it really matter? Honestly? You have your views, i have mine etc etc. Lets just get over this already.
Except that one set of views isn't responsible for dozens of major wars and millions of deaths.

I'd have nothing against faith if it wasn't for the fact that any amount of legitimizing it leaves extremists with the foundation necessary to expand their influence.

Honestly making believe is fun as hell and I understand the joy of it and the connection with youth that it entails. However faith does nothing that positive thinking doesn't already do, but it DOES have many negative consequences that positive thinking doesn't.
 

Berethond

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US Crash Fire said:
SakSak said:
US Crash Fire said:
you'd think atheists would not have a religious bias twords anyone and be more open minded but all of the atheists i have ever met have always told me how stupid and ignorant i was for being a christian (lutheran. AKA catholic lite) and how i deserved to be ripped on for it. all they did was insult my inteligence and try to degrade me. even my roomate and friend for the last 5 years who was catholic and recently converted to atheism did this to me! this made little sense to me. i have had friends who are muslim, buhdist and pagan who did not care that i was a christian because i was cool with them and they were cool with me. (except for my pagan friend ripping on me every christmas because he said we were celebrating the same holiday.) the point is i have no problem with atheits and i do NOT wish to convert anyone. im not a religious nut job. hell, i dont even go to a church. but i would like to know why all the atheists i have met seem to have a sense that they are better than everyone else. i am sure this is not the case for all atheists but if anyone has any answers let me know.
I used to be a lutheran christian before becoming an atheist.

The reason for your dilemma is simple: The change to atheism does not alter ones personality. If one was arrogant and know-it-all while religious, it doesn't change with 'conversion' to atheism. Or if one was raised to believe that all christians are dunderheads and illogical idiots, then that is what the person will likely continue to think to their adult lives.

I personally have many friends who are buddhists, lutheran christians, I know some catholics and even a fundie christian who is a YEC! I am not their friend because or in spite of their beliefs, but because they are my friends, I like their company and we have fun times together. Likewise, I've come across atheists who think that just because they have shed their former beliefs they are now suddenly the kings of the universe.

Personality and religiosity (or lackthereof) are not tied together. We atheists can be just as discriminating bunch of people as anyone else. After all, atheism is only lack of belief in any god, nothing more, nothing less.
finally! someone who gets me!
thanks for your help it explains a lot. my friend who converted was a know it all bastard before he ws an atheist. he just never acted like that to me because we used to think the same. so i never noticed untill he acted like that to me! also im in california right now where people are jackasses anyway no matter what belief system they use. man, a major light just went on in my head.
thank God....or maybe not.
Yes.
All Californians are dicks.

Also, it works like this. God tells the tiny atomic particle at the start of the universe to do something before he gets bored. Hence, Big Bang. Then, some time later, he says, "Hey, make me some planets and crap." Then, some time after that, he says, "Hey, it would be pretty cool if there was life. I'm going to make a cell."

Then, we hand it over to evolution.
 

Julianking93

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Are we still bitching about this bullshit?

I at least want a month period without any religious threads. But....


Evolution is based on fact, Creationism is not. Evolution has been pretty much proven at this point while Creationism has pretty much been discredited as having any science based logic. Science sees Creationism the same way they look at a fairy tale.

Its just a fucking story that people took out of preportion.