Evolution & Atheism... Is it really more plausible?

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FluxCapacitor

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ICs2Xist said:
PROVEN. IT'S NOT FREAKIN PROVEN TILL YOU GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD AND SEE IT FOR YOURSELF (not even then, really).

As for the sea-serpent, go out and prove yourself right. The beginning of the world is no more perceptible to us than God is.

Offering no facts in return. Yes, I'm not offering facts in return. No, this is not a fair fight, because I say I don't have to. Why can I say that? I don't claim to have so many, nor do I claim my theory is, or even can be, proven.
Okay, are you asking if evolution is more proven than Creation/Intelligent Design, or if it's more plausible? Surely evolution is more proven, as we have never witnessed a deity creating life on either a macro or micro scale...

Now let's get a definition for plausible, shall we?

plausible
A adjective
1 credible, plausible
appearing to merit belief or acceptance; "a credible witness"; "a plausible story"

2 likely, plausible
within the realm of credibility; "not a very likely excuse"; "a plausible story"

3 probable, likely, plausible
likely but not certain to be or become true or real; "a likely result"; "he foresaw a probable loss"

4 plausible
apparently reasonable and valid

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/plausible

Notice how plausibility does not require proof, merely a strong likelihood supported by reasonable and valid argument. Now consider whether "I don't have to give evidence, because I'm saying it's not possible to give evidence" fits that criteria. Is evolution more proven? Yes, because creationists are not interested in finding any new proof. Is evolution more plausible? YES, for the exact same reason.

And a massive vote of thanks to Captain Blackout, for reminding us all that there are spiritual people out there who realise that the truth needs to be sought and discussed, and not proclaimed then never questioned again. Cheers, buddy!
 

Notsomuch

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Samurai Goomba said:
NoMoreSanity said:
Evolution has basis in fact. There are numerous fossils that show similarities to humans over the years, the fossils becoming more and more human-like as time came closer to the dawn of man. Plus our DNA is shared with several of our ancestors, AKA Monkeys.

Atheism is plausible because, if there's no evidence for God Existing/Not-Existing, I'll just take it that he doesn't exist.
Just wanted to mention that scientists don't really understand how DNA works all that much. And even a 2% difference or whatever in DNA is HUGE from a scientific perspective, given the complexity of even a single DNA strand.

Besides that, probability math might tend to disprove the long sequence of coincidences/lucky breaks we refer to as the Evolutionary process. Just think of all that can go wrong with no kind of design or plan (because if there WERE a design, that would tend to imply a designer).

Similarities in DNA could be evidence of a creator using similar materials to build his stuff as much as it could be evidence of Evolution. I mean, if you have a perfectly good method for making a hand, why change it any more than you have to?

Just throwing some ideas out there. Feel free to believe whatever you want, I'm just trying to steer this topic away from the obvious flamebait perspectives on the subject.
The similarity between DNA is not evidence for a designer, it is evidence for the similarity for DNA. Perhaps the Similarity between DNA presents evidence that two close strands were once the same and simply split. The way we understand it is that DNA replicates itself and genes are taken and used to create the duplicate strands. Sometimes a mutation occurs by way of a new gene being added to a strand. These mutations, should they be favorable lead to the survival of carrier of said genes which allows the parent to pass on those identical genes to their children and so on. This makes sense. Where in the this process does it become necessary to introduce a creator?

We have already established through experiments that it is possible for the building blocks of DNA, Proteins and amino acids, to rise naturally. That may not be the method from which they arose however it is possible. There is no room for any supernatural conception until you start to stretch what we know and begin to make several unnecessary assumptions.
 

grimsprice

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stinkychops said:
grimsprice said:
michael_ab said:
intellegent design is WRONG!!

INCORRECT!!

look up the case of dover colorado, evolution vs intellegent design, nova did something on it
Dude. You made me laugh hysterically. Half an inch above your post is a link i gave to a very intelligent man who totally bashes intelligent design who actually gave testimony in the dover case you mentioned. -define irony-
How is it ironic?
Ok, so irony isn't really the right word. I still think its funny.
 

Biosophilogical

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ICs2Xist said:
2) The universe may have existed forever? look up some authorities on that, noob. Intelligent-response-giving evolutionists don't believe it. Besides, they also believe planets are much, much, much, much younger than the universe itself, and evolution basically requires life evolving throughout time on a single planet.
Well first off, what was before the universe. Second, seeing as something must have happened to CAUSE anything to be created, then something must have been existing then, then of coursse if the thing that caused existance was some random momentary flash or something (big bang or whatever you wanna call it) then what caused the thing that caused the creation of everything???

Also, you are quite right, the planets ae young, and yet we have proven that we can break atoms, and what happens when you break atoms??? it seems that they are younger than they are, so our idea of the age of the earth is probably right but the stuff that makes up the earth could have existed many times longer than that and in that time could have sustained life. If we can break an atom imagine what the power of a supernova or the event horizon of a black hole could do to a rapidly moving particle.
ICs2Xist said:
3) Struck by lightning or superheated... Really? What an idea. Got any idea how complex DNA is? Got any idea how complex a cell is? Got any idea how complex a single-celled organism is?
well if the universe has existed FOREVER!!! then eventually something like this could happen as if you think of the earth's weather patterns, lightning strikes aren't uncommon and it is known that heat is a valuable catalyst for chemical reactions to occur, and also with trillions and trillions of possible lightning strike and stuff BEFORE FIRST LIFE!!! it is entirely possible that it could have occured.And final note, don't call me a noob seeing as all science is just speculation weighed against evidence and the fact that you think that everything was just created out of nothing begs how much you really think about these things. The most likely occurence of energy and mass and stuff is that it was changed from something else, and that doesn't mean it was created from nothing and everything began, it means that there was always energy and possibly matter.
ICs2Xist said:
4) Trillions of planets in our universe: look this up, it's fascinating. To give a number, once you figure just a few of the factors regarding a planet's habitability: experts say 1 in 10 to the 144th power (http://www.windmillministries.org/frames/CH4-3A.htm), which with the estimated 10 to the 22nd power planets in the universe (same site) suggests that no planet in the universe should be habitable at all, according to the odds. And I suppose the lightning just happened to strike perfectly there, too. And superheated conditions are very common on life-sustaining planets, I'm sure.
Actually if you look at .. oh i don't know ... EARTH!!! super-heated conditions are caused by MOLTEN ROCK!!! and lightning? MAYBE A STORM!!! Another point, scientists can only tell what is within appropriate light years of us, so if something exists farther away from us than light could travel since it began emitting light than guess what, there are quite possibly many more planets out there. And with an unknowable amount of planets out there the odds ae suddenly shifted in our favour. If the amount of planets exceeds the odds of having life then chances are there will be LIFE!!! And secondly, the point of chance isn't that if it is 1:100 the hundredth one will be the winner, it is that out of every one hundred, one will be succesful and it could be the very first one. So before you go trying to tear down other people's theories, actually try and think if their's could work!!!
 

Samurai Goomba

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stinkychops said:
Samurai Goomba said:
NoMoreSanity said:
Evolution has basis in fact. There are numerous fossils that show similarities to humans over the years, the fossils becoming more and more human-like as time came closer to the dawn of man. Plus our DNA is shared with several of our ancestors, AKA Monkeys.

Atheism is plausible because, if there's no evidence for God Existing/Not-Existing, I'll just take it that he doesn't exist.
Just wanted to mention that scientists don't really understand how DNA works all that much. And even a 2% difference or whatever in DNA is HUGE from a scientific perspective, given the complexity of even a single DNA strand.

Besides that, probability math might tend to disprove the long sequence of coincidences/lucky breaks we refer to as the Evolutionary process. Just think of all that can go wrong with no kind of design or plan (because if there WERE a design, that would tend to imply a designer).

Similarities in DNA could be evidence of a creator using similar materials to build his stuff as much as it could be evidence of Evolution. I mean, if you have a perfectly good method for making a hand, why change it any more than you have to?

Just throwing some ideas out there. Feel free to believe whatever you want, I'm just trying to steer this topic away from the obvious flamebait perspectives on the subject.
When we speak over such a long period of time, the conditions on Earth mean that life at least as complex as fish was more likely than not
I'll give you that, maybe (although there's so much that could have gone wrong with the initial formation of life), but mankind is a long way from a sea bass. Well, most of them. The evolution of something so highly tuned and obscenely complex as the human brain (which has a near-infinite capacity for storage and is or was more powerful than a supercomputer)... Well, that's like going to Vegas and winning a billion dollars with a single dice roll.

Now, if we have a designer of some kind, it makes sense why we have all this really intricate stuff everywhere and our world works so perfectly (or did, before we started messing it up).
 

haruvister

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When it comes to this argument, I find it best to refer to a man of greater distinction than I:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7853325.stm
 

grimsprice

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Samurai Goomba said:
... Well, that's like going to Vegas and winning a billion dollars with a single dice roll.
Actually its not like winning a billion dollars in a single dice roll. Its like spending your whole life in vegas, as a proffessional gambler, and winning a few hundred here and few thousand here your whole life, and ending up with a billion. Which is totally believable if you are that good at poker. Evolution has had a loooooong time to build complexity out of simplicity.
 

Notsomuch

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Samurai Goomba said:
stinkychops said:
Samurai Goomba said:
NoMoreSanity said:
Evolution has basis in fact. There are numerous fossils that show similarities to humans over the years, the fossils becoming more and more human-like as time came closer to the dawn of man. Plus our DNA is shared with several of our ancestors, AKA Monkeys.

Atheism is plausible because, if there's no evidence for God Existing/Not-Existing, I'll just take it that he doesn't exist.
Just wanted to mention that scientists don't really understand how DNA works all that much. And even a 2% difference or whatever in DNA is HUGE from a scientific perspective, given the complexity of even a single DNA strand.

Besides that, probability math might tend to disprove the long sequence of coincidences/lucky breaks we refer to as the Evolutionary process. Just think of all that can go wrong with no kind of design or plan (because if there WERE a design, that would tend to imply a designer).

Similarities in DNA could be evidence of a creator using similar materials to build his stuff as much as it could be evidence of Evolution. I mean, if you have a perfectly good method for making a hand, why change it any more than you have to?

Just throwing some ideas out there. Feel free to believe whatever you want, I'm just trying to steer this topic away from the obvious flamebait perspectives on the subject.
When we speak over such a long period of time, the conditions on Earth mean that life at least as complex as fish was more likely than not
I'll give you that, maybe (although there's so much that could have gone wrong with the initial formation of life), but mankind is a long way from a sea bass. Well, most of them. The evolution of something so highly tuned and obscenely complex as the human brain (which has a near-infinite capacity for storage and is or was more powerful than a supercomputer)... Well, that's like going to Vegas and winning a billion dollars with a single dice roll.

Now, if we have a designer of some kind, it makes sense why we have all this really intricate stuff everywhere and our world works so perfectly (or did, before we started messing it up).
It does not. Evolution is not a random process it is a calculating process. You are operating on a misconception. To have the human brain form whole by chance is unlikely however if it were to evolve and increase in intricacy over time then that would make sense. Evolution isn't a random dice role attempting all sixes in one go it is a process that removes the sixes after each roll and decreases the odds of achieving the desired result. That is not to mention that there are examples of brains that ours would have evolved from and that we can accurately trace back the evolution of our brain to lower life forms.
 

AngloDoom

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Captain Blackout said:
AngloDoom said:
You do know you wasted an entire essay on a complete and utter tool who's only here for the fight and doesn't give a damn what anyone else says, right?
Part of me thought so, but I just fancied writing anyway. I like writing similar essays, oddly.

Still, thanks for the warning there.
 

Shapsters

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ICs2Xist said:
OKAY PLEASE PEOPLE. GIVE ME A BREAK ABOUT MY AGE. I'M 17, OKAY? I ask for a few intelligent responses and about 75% of them simply call me a 12-year-old moron.

I can stand moron, but the age thing is getting kind of annoying. As soon as you say I must be 12, I can automatically assume (since you can't come up with a more unique or complex insult) that your age (or IQ) must be about half that.

As for the word "noob"... Whatever, I'll stop. It was stupid of me to begin.
People are saying you are 12 becuase your use of words like noob, lolz and your obsession for the caps lock and exclamation mark. You act like a 12 year old people are going to assume you are twelve.

Now as for the matter at hand, evolution is, and will always be a theory because despite how much evidence there may be supporting it(and there is a lot) no one was there to witness it and it is all based upon findings and theories the about these findings.

Now, if we look at many, many species of animals we see proof of evolution, take the Pelican for example, as opposed to the seagull who enjoys scraps, the pelican like nice fresh fish. This particular bird, as you may have noticed has a mouth/beak very much unlike other birds, this is becuase the species has adapted over thousands of years to better its fish catching ability.
 

grimsprice

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AngloDoom said:
Captain Blackout said:
AngloDoom said:
You do know you wasted an entire essay on a complete and utter tool who's only here for the fight and doesn't give a damn what anyone else says, right?
Part of me thought so, but I just fancied writing anyway. I like writing similar essays, oddly.

Still, thanks for the warning there.
Yeah, i go back and forth between moods. Tonight i'm ready for an intelligence vs. stupidity fight like this. Most of the time, i'd just agree with captain blackout, feckim and his flaming.
 

AhumbleKnight

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Shine-osophical said:
well if the universe has existed FOREVER!!! then eventually something like this could happen as if you think of the earth's weather patterns, lightning strikes aren't uncommon and it is known that heat is a valuable catalyst for chemical reactions to occur, and also with trillions and trillions of possible lightning strike and stuff BEFORE FIRST LIFE!!! it is entirely possible that it could have occured.And final note, don't call me a noob seeing as all science is just speculation weighed against evidence and the fact that you think that everything was just created out of nothing begs how much you really think about these things. The most likely occurence of energy and mass and stuff is that it was changed from something else, and that doesn't mean it was created from nothing and everything began, it means that there was always energy and possibly matter.
Actually, the whole lightning strike theory has been proven wrong and is now considered false. There are other theories for Abiogenesis that exist. At least one theory has been proven by recreation in a lab. ie. the forming of stable single celled organisms from fatty acids in right pH condidtions.

A common problem with anti-evolution arugments is that people try and lump other forms of science into the mix of evolution. By saying that ID or Creationism or the Bible or any other religious belief is correct and evolution is wrong, you are actually also denying many other forms of science. Other forms of science that have far more going for them in the way of evidence and recreatable experiments.
 

bjj hero

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Samurai Goomba said:
stinkychops said:
Samurai Goomba said:
NoMoreSanity said:
Evolution has basis in fact. There are numerous fossils that show similarities to humans over the years, the fossils becoming more and more human-like as time came closer to the dawn of man. Plus our DNA is shared with several of our ancestors, AKA Monkeys.

Atheism is plausible because, if there's no evidence for God Existing/Not-Existing, I'll just take it that he doesn't exist.
Just wanted to mention that scientists don't really understand how DNA works all that much. And even a 2% difference or whatever in DNA is HUGE from a scientific perspective, given the complexity of even a single DNA strand.

Besides that, probability math might tend to disprove the long sequence of coincidences/lucky breaks we refer to as the Evolutionary process. Just think of all that can go wrong with no kind of design or plan (because if there WERE a design, that would tend to imply a designer).

Similarities in DNA could be evidence of a creator using similar materials to build his stuff as much as it could be evidence of Evolution. I mean, if you have a perfectly good method for making a hand, why change it any more than you have to?

Just throwing some ideas out there. Feel free to believe whatever you want, I'm just trying to steer this topic away from the obvious flamebait perspectives on the subject.
When we speak over such a long period of time, the conditions on Earth mean that life at least as complex as fish was more likely than not
I'll give you that, maybe (although there's so much that could have gone wrong with the initial formation of life), but mankind is a long way from a sea bass. Well, most of them. The evolution of something so highly tuned and obscenely complex as the human brain (which has a near-infinite capacity for storage and is or was more powerful than a supercomputer)... Well, that's like going to Vegas and winning a billion dollars with a single dice roll.

Now, if we have a designer of some kind, it makes sense why we have all this really intricate stuff everywhere and our world works so perfectly (or did, before we started messing it up).
You're saying the speed of evolution is improbable (although you can follow most of it if you check fossil records over millions of years), but an all powerful god who has existed forever and is intelligent enough to create all of life seems more probable to you? Who "designed" him then? It makes far less sense.

I'd like to add he's a shitty designer. As we have evolved from quadropeds to bipedal it has left us with issues ranging from back ache to piles... A designer might have taken more care.
 

HK_01

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ICs2Xist said:
the "Atheists, It's time to turn the spotlight on you" topic has me ranting. Such quotes as:

xXGeckoXx: "I will raise the child as a scientist. I will not teach him that there is a god. If he tells me that he has heard of religions and wants to know what they are all about i will tell him but I will tell him why it is scientiffically7 implausible. then once he has been told he can choose."

MalthusX: "I will teach them how some people thought the world was made, but I will point out that evolution makes more sense."

Does it really make more sense? Can people really argue this logically for me? Yes, I realize you can't completely disprove or even offer significant evidence against the fuzzy, biased view of the earth's creation by a Christian, but try and offer some real evidence FOR evolution.

aruki: "A fair judge [God] wouldn't tarnish everyone from a family, street, town or country or race for the acts of two individuals from centuries ago. Assuming the bible to be correct that is."

Okay, I know this post wasn't typical post, normally people replied a bit more intelligently than that in the thread. But posts that showed little to no knowledge of the Christian side of the picture were fairly common.

Okay guys... post. Please do so in an intelligent manner (I reserve the right to make fun of every grammatical error found), and, if you directly mention elements of Christianity... make sure you have some idea what you are talking about.

PS: Don't hate me for making a religious thread.
You want evidence for evolution? The genetic code of humans and apes is 90+ percent identical. Horses and donkeys can produce offspring with each other, suggesting that they had the same ancestors. How humans turned wolves into dogs is an example of evolution. Cows that produce 60 litres of milk a day are an example of evolution(controlled by humans, though, just like the dog example). The fact that we have different species living on the planet today that one million years ago should be proof to you that there is evolution(or do you think the new species that we see today just popped up?). There's LOTS more.


Edit: I think I found the perfect example: viruses. They evolve so fast that we can see it happening. They develop immunities, adapt to the environment, evolve in other words, right in front of our eyes.

Edit 2: Reading some of the previous posts, I have the feeling that I wasted my precious time responding to a troll, or at least someone who's not willing to even consider what the people not sharing his opinion are saying.
 

Seanchaidh

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ICs2Xist said:
but try and offer some real evidence FOR evolution.
Over the years, people have taken pickaxes to the ground and found these wonderful bits of dead stuff we know as fossils. These fossils have different characteristics. Some of them have a ribcage. Others are bacteria or protists. Still others are plants. Many of them are dinosaurs. Did you know that dinosaurs have a ribcage and quite a few of the same organs that cows, manatees, etc. have? Well they do. A tyrannosaur? Ribcage. A Brontosaurus? Ribcage. Triceratops? Ribcage. And horns! These bunches of fossils were probably alive before coming fossils, as you might guess. And they do have very many common characteristics. But they are also quite different in important ways, and you'll especially see a trend that creatures that are alike in one way are very often alike in other ways. For instance: if something has a skull, it usually has a ribcage and four legs or two legs and two arms or wings-- or it's a fish. The four-appendage configuration is extremely popular, and as far as I know without exception the front legs are always distinguishable from the back legs by more than just placement; the hindquarters are usually bigger. You'll see this from rats to zebras to kittens and bunny rabbits. The most obvious exception is winged creatures: these have small legs and large wings rather than large legs and small arms. But you'll notice this pattern throughout every mammal that hasn't been somehow deformed: two pairs of appendages that look like mirror images. You'll also see a skeleton. And a stomach. And a heart. And a brain. These organs can come in wildly different shapes and sizes; but they share enough in common and tend to do the same things enough that we can easily categorize them as like things. But not every living thing does have a heart. And not every living thing does have a brain. And not every living thing does have a skeleton. But they all, without any exception, are comprised of cells which replicate and divide. Animals, plants, bacteria, all of them are made of cells.

One thing you'll notice about the fossil record is that when you date different fossils (using radiometric dating [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating]) is that the first living things to become fossils were bacteria, or one-celled organisms. And those organisms share a characteristic with all living things: that they are made of cells. Then you'll later see larger organisms: the first fungi, the first plants, the first animals, the first lizards. And these too have some universal similarities with later sorts of their kind, but they also have very strong differences from the other types: no plant has a skeleton. No animal can photosynthesize or put roots into the ground and soak water. No insect has a ribcage and no animal has anything like a larva->cocoon->butterfly lifecycle. You won't see opposable thumbs in anything but primates. Paths appear to have diverged many different times, even though there is the primal, cellular similarity. You see specific mutations within groups of different living organisms and not ever replicated in other populations--at least not in the same way: the legs of a centipede or spider are vastly different from the legs of a kangaroo, which are much closer to the legs of other animals. Legs seem to be one of those things that is both so simple and so useful that it is manifested in various ways. The wing seems to be another of those.

Now we know from genetics that traits can be passed down with each generation, and that mutations can occur. We also know that there are limited resources for consumption and competition between organisms to consume those resources. It stands to reason that those organisms which most successfully reproduce themselves are the ones which the next generation will most resemble. So, when a mutation happens, if it sucks (like, say, dwarfism) it doesn't happen as much and the population is dominated by non-dwarfs. But if it rocks (like, let's say, having eyes) then the advantage causes the freakish mutation to get passed down more than average and come to dominate.

I'm going to stop because this is getting huge. On the whole, I find this request for "some real evidence" both amusing and frustrating. I'm no expert on this stuff, but it makes every bit of sense to me. I wrote this off the top of my head. Read a damned book if you really want more than 0.001% of the available evidence because FUCK is it everywhere.