Extra Credits Takes a Stab at the Mass Effect 3 issues

[BloatedGuppy]

Are these the same guys who did the hilarious, absolutely cringe-inducing segment on MMO video game addiction?

Yeah, yeah it was. And that's when I stopped watching them.

Ah right, it was. It was video game addiction. My bad. He was talking primarily about WoW, I believe, so wires got crossed in my head.

The near comical level of somberness and exaggerated import for what ultimately turned out to be spectacularly uneventful anecdotes would've made the entire thing a brilliant satirical piece, if it had been intentional.

I've found it really, really hard to take them seriously since.

 

[370999]

See this MovieBob, this is the way to approach controversy, not as a dick, not modeling yourself on Fox News but intelligently.

Now I disagree with extra credits but at least they approached it respectfully.

 

[anthony87]

Hmm...another ME3 ending thread. Well I'm just gonna go ahead and ask the same question I've asked in three or four other related threads:

"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

I haven't been asking it over and over again to be annoying, I've been asking it over and over because it hasn't been answered once. Almost as if people can't think of an answer....

 

[Frostbite3789]

Fallout 3's ending was changed over a much smaller outcry than this and nobody complained then. This is no different.

Fallout 3 like any Bethesda game is about as far as from story driven as you can get. People disliked that in a game where you get to dick around and do whatever you want, when you finished the incredibly bad main plot, you were no longer able to dick around in the post-apocalypse, with your high level, geared out character.

That's like if in an MMO, once you hit the top level, they straight murdered your dude and told you to start again.

Hmm...another ME3 ending thread. Well I'm just gonna go ahead and ask the same question I've asked in three or four other related threads:

"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

I haven't been asking it over and over again to be annoying, I've been asking it over and over because it hasn't been answered once. Almost as if people can't think of an answer....

Read above.

 

[Eddie the head]

Ah right, it was. It was video game addiction. My bad. He was talking primarily about WoW, I believe, so wires got crossed in my head.

The near comical level of somberness and exaggerated import for what ultimately turned out to be spectacularly uneventful anecdotes would've made the entire thing a brilliant satirical piece, if it had been intentional.

I've found it really, really hard to take them seriously since.

For me the whole moral choice system in missile command just made me go what? I try and see most points of view but ... I ... just well.... what the hell? I think if there is ever a show on the internet that you can say is over thinking it it's them.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Fallout 3 like any Bethesda game is about as far as from story driven as you can get. People disliked that in a game where you get to dick around and do whatever you want, when you finished the incredibly bad main plot, you were no longer able to dick around in the post-apocalypse, with your high level, geared out character.

That's like if in an MMO, once you hit the top level, they straight murdered your dude and told you to start again.

That's not really true, and it's a terrible tack to take with this whole debate. If ME is art, then FO3 is art. You can argue that FO3 isn't very good art, and I'll agree with you, but if it was simple as "it's fine to change BAD art" then ME3's ending wouldn't have a leg to stand on, because it's fucking terrible. FO3 still had a story, and they still made a MASSIVE change to that story via DLC. It's a perfectly appropriate analogue, and a MUCH more appropriate analogue than books or films. It's probably the closest thing to a direct comparable that we have, actually.

Touche. If it's any help, I don't have any personal problem with people saying that they didn't like the ending and that closure would be nice. But the fire-breathing rhetoric really needs to stop. Especially when they start using the word "critic" as a pejorative or start talking about art as if it's all bullshit getting in the way of their entertainment.

I think video game critics are getting a bad reputation these days, and rightfully so, the situation that exists regarding advertiser pressure and review scores is ugly, and it taints pretty much every discussion we have with or about them.

As for the art thing, I will argue that video games are art with my dying breath, I just don't understand where this "Ye canna change art! Ne'er! Ne'er can ye change it!" crap came from, because there absolutely is a precedent for changing art, and if a piece of art ever needed changing, it was that fucking ending. Yes, it's ultimately Bioware's call, but I have little to no problem with people shoving their nose in the mess they made.

But yes, we are agreed that the name calling HAS to stop, on both sides. If someone liked that ending, that's their business, I respect that. And if someone is worried about "art by committee", that's okay too, I UNDERSTAND the worry, and I respect it, but I remain in fundamental disagreement that ME3's ending merits defense in its current state.

 

[anthony87]

Fallout 3's ending was changed over a much smaller outcry than this and nobody complained then. This is no different.

Fallout 3 like any Bethesda game is about as far as from story driven as you can get. People disliked that in a game where you get to dick around and do whatever you want, when you finished the incredibly bad main plot, you were no longer able to dick around in the post-apocalypse, with your high level, geared out character.

That's like if in an MMO, once you hit the top level, they straight murdered your dude and told you to start again.

Hmm...another ME3 ending thread. Well I'm just gonna go ahead and ask the same question I've asked in three or four other related threads:

"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

I haven't been asking it over and over again to be annoying, I've been asking it over and over because it hasn't been answered once. Almost as if people can't think of an answer....

Read above.

I read it........

Still doesn't answer the question I asked.

 

[Frostbite3789]

Fallout 3 like any Bethesda game is about as far as from story driven as you can get. People disliked that in a game where you get to dick around and do whatever you want, when you finished the incredibly bad main plot, you were no longer able to dick around in the post-apocalypse, with your high level, geared out character.

That's like if in an MMO, once you hit the top level, they straight murdered your dude and told you to start again.

That's not really true, and it's a terrible tack to take with this whole debate. If ME is art, then FO3 is art. You can argue that FO3 isn't very good art, and I'll agree with you, but if it was simple as "it's fine to change BAD art" then ME3's ending wouldn't have a leg to stand on, because it's fucking terrible. FO3 still had a story, and they still made a MASSIVE change to that story via DLC. It's a perfectly appropriate analogue, and a MUCH more appropriate analogue than books or films. It's probably the closest thing to a direct comparable that we have, actually.

The difference being in the ending of FO3 I was flabbergasted at the super obvious solution to this ordeal that they went with in the $15 DLC they sold me so I could keep playing the game. I had an intelligent super mutant who can survive radiation right next to me. I could send them in to input the code and everything is awesome.

I paid $15 for them to do that for me. ME3's ending had me nowhere near that pissed off. As soon as the game forced me to go in there or send the BoS member in, and ended the game I dropped my controller on the ground and went for a walk.

 

[IMGF]

Fallout 3's ending was changed over a much smaller outcry than this and nobody complained then. This is no different.

Fallout 3 like any Bethesda game is about as far as from story driven as you can get. People disliked that in a game where you get to dick around and do whatever you want, when you finished the incredibly bad main plot, you were no longer able to dick around in the post-apocalypse, with your high level, geared out character.

That's like if in an MMO, once you hit the top level, they straight murdered your dude and told you to start again.

Yeah, but if that was Bethesda's original intent for the game to finish that way, why do the fans' opinion matter again? See, Bethesda didn't try to defend any sort of artistic integrity of the ending. They saw that they made a mistake and fixed it.

For some reason, the ending of ME3 is being toted as an example of artistic integrity in games by developers and not as the mistake it really is. For a game that revolves around story, the ending should reflect a cohesion with the rest of the story that has been told. Mass Effect 3 does not stick to a narrative coherence.

 

[Berenzen]

Another question: how does Mass Effect 3 being "art" absolve it from criticism? Anyone care to explain this?

It doesn't absolve it from criticism. People are free to talk, *****, converse etc. on the ending as much as they like, nobody should be saying that you can't. However, people deciding that the company must change it to meet the consumer's need is the main point of contention. They can listen, but they don't have to do anything about it, it's not the consumer's call to make, it's Bioware's.

In the end, both the game reviewers calling the masses whiny and entitled, as well as the "Retake Mass Effect" people are in the wrong here. It has just completely escalated out of control.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The difference being in the ending of FO3 I was flabbergasted at the super obvious solution to this ordeal that they went with in the $15 DLC they sold me so I could keep playing the game. I had an intelligent super mutant who can survive radiation right next to me. I could send them in to input the code and everything is awesome.

I paid $15 for them to do that for me. ME3's ending had me nowhere near that pissed off. As soon as the game forced me to go in there or send the BoS member in, and ended the game I dropped my controller on the ground and went for a walk.

FO3's ending was one of the worst endings for a game ever, I'm in total agreement with you. I feel that ME3's ending is the bigger catastrophe because of the nature of the games, the emotional investment of the audience, expectations, etc, etc, but that's a whole other kettle of fish. FO3's ending was a disaster, needed fixing, got fixed, everyone went home happy. Hoping the same happens here, all the hand wringing about the death of art notwithstanding.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

I like a lot of the stuff extra credits does, but sometimes they can get so stuck up their own arses that I'm surprised they can pry themselves out.

 

[Phlakes]

"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

First of all, Fallout 3's ending wasn't changed, they just made you able to play the game after it was over. Completely different situation there.

And changing it isn't a bad thing- changing it because of the people demanding it is. Bioware made a conscious decision to end it how they did for whatever reason, and they have every right to make and uphold their artisitic choice. People are free and encouraged to voice their opinions, but making demands is what crosses the line, and giving in to demands sets a terrible precedent (people will start to think that they have control over any product as long as they can yell loud enough).

EDIT: Also, not to the person I quoted but to the rest of you out there, it's really entertaining to see how you all react. Now that you can't come up with any excuses like bribes or corruption, you just go straight to the personal insults. Stay classy.

 

[RaikuFA]

Although I'm not sure it's necessary to get people to self-identify as "gamers" - after all, I read a lot, but don't self-identify as a "bookworm." I think cultural osmosis will make games mainstream, and I don't think Bioware ending DLC or whatever will have much of an impact on that process.

Probably not. Though I do think we're going to look back on this and say, "Jesus, let's not do that again."

Well, you have to understand this is my point as well. If I dislike that ending, and feel a change is warranted, I'm:

- Entitled!
- A crybaby!
- Taking video games too seriously!
- A whiner!
- I don't understand art!
- I don't respect the integrity of art!
- I'm trying to force the artist to deface their art!

...and on and on. My original response to you was in reply to your statement about "non artists", which seemed like yet another variation on the "You're too much of a plebeian to understand the mighty forces at work here" barrage.

My remarks are not directed at you personally. To be totally honest, I do think there are some anti-intellectuals in the crowd who should do us all a favor and bugger off. But if you're someone who didn't like the ending and just plain wants some closure, I'm not going to rake you over the coals for that. It's not the opinion that I have a problem with (usually). It's the way that some people have chosen to express it. Especially when they are quick to dismiss those on the opposite side as "not getting it" or being "pretentious art snobs." That's not a counterargument, that's just being a *****.

Dude, I agree with this so much. I'm neutral on the subject and some of their attitude is "You're either with us or against us"

 

[anthony87]

"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

First of all, Fallout 3's ending wasn't changed, they just made you able to play the game after it was over. Completely different situation there.

And changing it isn't a bad thing- changing it because of the people demanding it is. Bioware made a conscious decision to end it how they did for whatever reason, and they have every right to make and uphold their artisitic choice. People are free and encouraged to voice their opinions, but making demands is what crosses the line, and giving in to demands sets a terrible precedent (people will start to think that they have control over any product as long as they can yell loud enough).

EDIT: Also, not to the person I quoted but to the rest of you out there, it's really entertaining to see how you all react. Now that you can't come up with any excuses like bribes or corruption, you just go straight to the personal insults. Stay classy.

But the ending WAS changed.

Pre DLC ending: You die and an epilouge is shown which can vary slightly from person to person depending depending on their reputation in the game.

Post DLC ending: Uh...not sure really since I never completed Broken Steel. Project Purity gets activated so the Capital Wasteland has access to clean water I believe is what happens.

And lo...the world did not burn for it.

 

[AbstractStream]

It was pretty obvious what EC's stance on the matter was going to be. I get where they're coming from and respect how they said it, but at this point I just shrugged off their response.

At least Dan acknowledges the ending was unsatisfying.

 

[Awexsome]

The whole controversy stemmed up from the ME3 ending is well-earned because it was definitely flawed; I felt letdown by it too. For the most part I agree with them on everything though. Although quite frankly I still am more disappointed at their failure of going for the more creative ending rather than applauding them for trying. However...

The stigma for the opposition side being whiny, entitled babies has been well-earned as well too. The whole 'artistic merit' part of the argument may want to be brushed off and ignored by some of the movement but they're ignoring reality. For a developer like Bioware and a series like Mass Effect brushing off that argument only cements their ignorance to reality.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

http://extra-credits.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2008

Nothing much to say except that Extra Credits decided to respond to this issue, and they have some pretty good views.

Thanks! This part really helps explain why I didn't like the ending, but feel no need to see it changed (although explained might help).

I really like that Bioware gave us an unpredictable ending and left us with questions about the future. I like what this ending seems to be trying to do, even if I don't think it quite succeeds. But the audience needed something slightly less nebulous and abrupt in order to have closure, resolution for this massive journey we've been on for the last four and a half years. And that's what's driving this backlash.

I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of variety in endings. The other two Mass Effect games pretty much had a single ending too, regardless of whether or not you saved the Council or salvaged the reaper. Vastly different endings based on your choices has never been what this series has been about. It's always been about how your choices affected the journey, and I've heard a great deal of variation in the journeys my friends have been taking through this game. I don't think it would be bothering people so much if it weren't for the fact that none of the endings to ME3 offer that closure we're so desperate for.

That part right there - I wish I had this to post earlier, it says what I've been trying to say better than I typically managed to say it.

Wish I could have said that better.

 

[Starke]

Are these the same guys who did the hilarious, absolutely cringe-inducing segment on MMO video game addiction?

Yeah, yeah it was. And that's when I stopped watching them.

Ah right, it was. It was video game addiction. My bad. He was talking primarily about WoW, I believe, so wires got crossed in my head.

The near comical level of somberness and exaggerated import for what ultimately turned out to be spectacularly uneventful anecdotes would've made the entire thing a brilliant satirical piece, if it had been intentional.

I've found it really, really hard to take them seriously since.

As a parody it could have actually been pretty funny. The problem was that it was pretty apparent that the video that this was him pouring his heart out.

The problem is, you can't really "pour your heart out" with complete strangers because they just don't care about your well being. (Not you personally, "you" as an indefinite.) And the end result blows so many social cues you basically destroy your credibility.