Fallout New Vegas: The Post-Benny Syndrome

[TsunamiWombat]

How the hell did you deduct that I was a casual numbwit gamer from my criticism of a poorly executed dark world?

Out of curiosity, what do you consider a "dark world"?

A projection of this world, only a lot more corrupt. In the dark world you can not rely on the moral integrity of anyone. It is close to the primal state. These dark worlds are a lot more familiar to people living in hostile societies, such as the United States. This is why I do not like when attempts at these dark worlds are so focused around the American audience that it is no longer a completely fictional dark world, but a projection of the fears and doubts of Americans.

The entire basis of Fallout was and always has been the projection of the fears and doubts of Americans, namely the Nuclear fear of the Cold War. In Fallouts universe we progressed scientifically much faster but at the same rate socially, resulting in the world blowing itself the hell up.

The game is about America. Set in America. Made by Americans. ABOUT Americans. If American sentiments offend you that much play something else. I suggest STALKER or Metro 2012, both very good games without an ounce of Americanism in them, both effectivly Russian versions of Fallout.

Also, the United States is a hostile society? Well, i'll admit we have our problems, but any society does, and at least our problems are the 'social discomfort' sort and not the 'i'm going to kill you and all your people because you are my traditional enemy' sort or the 'theres no food' sort.

I'm not trying to be an elitist America prig here, just saying- we don't exactly have a hostile society. Violence is actually way down, our discontent is entirely social and economic.

Onto the Main Topic, I never got that far but I understand what your describing, I call it "The Fontaine Effect". Here's some Bioshock spoilers, the game is years old so suck it if you havn't played it yet your not going to. You spend all of Bioshock persuing Andrew Ryan as the big bad, but when you finally do you get a suprize twist, he wasn't all along, and spend the last 1/3rd of the game in a somewhat drawn out sequence trying to get the real baddy who wants you dead for...Some reason. Because he's a Baddy.

Andrew Ryan is a far more interesting opponent then Fontaine, but the came doesn't climax with him as it feels like it naturally should, it drags on for an ackward final act as you fight an enemy that hasn't really dogged you or made itself your enemy until just that moment. It's the weakest part of an otherwise very stellar game.

But the thing about the Fallout games, and the reason I never finish them, is by they're nature they're huge sprawling toy castles filled with lots of things to do and doodads to play with. The plotline is just an impetus to get you wandering around to experiance the side quests, where most of the games enjoyment shines through. Ultimatly the main plot is a staid morality piece, which would be more believable as a grey v grey v grey struggle if you didn't earn "positive" and "negative" Karma for your actions, effectivly pointing out to you theres an invisible godlyness scale that -REALLY- tells you whats right and whats wrong. Even games with mostly stellar moral systems like Mass Effect fall into this trap, where you can choose what otherwise seems like an inept choice purely because you know it's the 'positive karma' or "paragon" choice and thus the RIGHT choice for the 'good' ending, no matter the subject matter.

In the case of F:NV, helping the NCR = Good Karma. And yes, I agree with you, that is a flawed design decision on Obsidians part. NCR should not necessarily = good. But a great many people, myself included, like to find the 'good' path and it can become ackward or even discouraging if one doesn't exist, so developers feel pressured to create one.

 

[Kair]

How the hell did you deduct that I was a casual numbwit gamer from my criticism of a poorly executed dark world?

Out of curiosity, what do you consider a "dark world"?

A projection of this world, only a lot more corrupt. In the dark world you can not rely on the moral integrity of anyone. It is close to the primal state. These dark worlds are a lot more familiar to people living in hostile societies, such as the United States. This is why I do not like when attempts at these dark worlds are so focused around the American audience that it is no longer a completely fictional dark world, but a projection of the fears and doubts of Americans.

The entire basis of Fallout was and always has been the projection of the fears and doubts of Americans, namely the Nuclear fear of the Cold War. In Fallouts universe we progressed scientifically much faster but at the same rate socially, resulting in the world blowing itself the hell up.

The game is about America. Set in America. Made by Americans. ABOUT Americans. If American sentiments offend you that much play something else. I suggest STALKER or Metro 2012, both very good games without an ounce of Americanism in them, both effectivly Russian versions of Fallout.

Also, the United States is a hostile society? Well, i'll admit we have our problems, but any society does, and at least our problems are the 'social discomfort' sort and not the 'i'm going to kill you and all your people because you are my traditional enemy' sort or the 'theres no food' sort.

I'm not trying to be an elitist America prig here, just saying- we don't exactly have a hostile society. Violence is actually way down, our discontent is entirely social and economic.

Onto the Main Topic, I never got that far but I understand what your describing, I call it "The Fontaine Effect". Here's some Bioshock spoilers, the game is years old so suck it if you havn't played it yet your not going to. You spend all of Bioshock persuing Andrew Ryan as the big bad, but when you finally do you get a suprize twist, he wasn't all along, and spend the last 1/3rd of the game in a somewhat drawn out sequence trying to get the real baddy who wants you dead for...Some reason. Because he's a Baddy.

Andrew Ryan is a far more interesting opponent then Fontaine, but the came doesn't climax with him as it feels like it naturally should, it drags on for an ackward final act as you fight an enemy that hasn't really dogged you or made itself your enemy until just that moment. It's the weakest part of an otherwise very stellar game.

But the thing about the Fallout games, and the reason I never finish them, is by they're nature they're huge sprawling toy castles filled with lots of things to do and doodads to play with. The plotline is just an impetus to get you wandering around to experiance the side quests, where most of the games enjoyment shines through. Ultimatly the main plot is a staid morality piece, which would be more believable as a grey v grey v grey struggle if you didn't earn "positive" and "negative" Karma for your actions, effectivly pointing out to you theres an invisible godlyness scale that -REALLY- tells you whats right and whats wrong. Even games with mostly stellar moral systems like Mass Effect fall into this trap, where you can choose what otherwise seems like an inept choice purely because you know it's the 'positive karma' or "paragon" choice and thus the RIGHT choice for the 'good' ending, no matter the subject matter.

In the case of F:NV, helping the NCR = Good Karma. And yes, I agree with you, that is a flawed design decision on Obsidians part. NCR should not necessarily = good. But a great many people, myself included, like to find the 'good' path and it can become ackward or even discouraging if one doesn't exist, so developers feel pressured to create one.

I was not pointing to the violence in the United States, but the conflict-minded nature of Americans. Gun control is scoffed at because "you need to defend yourself" and you are perfectly allowed to trade in another person's life to save your imagined property. Everyone's so egotistically oriented that they disregard everyone else, and they try to mask it under words such as self-preservation. Self-preservation stops at getting food and shelter, and the self-interest (another masking word) would be in the vast majority of cases more satisfied through cooperation than through conflict.

 

[StormShaun]

Benny...killed...*whistles*

Ok, ok, I didnt kill him, im too good for that and also I wanted a reson to kill Ceasar the douchebag, OK I didnt need a reason but I liked Benny, aside from the fact that he killed me once, I had reasons to kill him, but I didnt, Im good to the max!

Also I think that after ending/saving Benny I thought that the world of war opened up to me, it opened up to me REALLY bloody since I ran around The fortress with a chainsaw killing every Legion fanboy I could get my hands on, such a wonderful time.

 

[ChupathingyX]

A projection of this world, only a lot more corrupt. In the dark world you can not rely on the moral integrity of anyone. It is close to the primal state. These dark worlds are a lot more familiar to people living in hostile societies, such as the United States. This is why I do not like when attempts at these dark worlds are so focused around the American audience that it is no longer a completely fictional dark world, but a projection of the fears and doubts of Americans.

Well New vegas does exactly that, and I still don't understand the whole American thing.

Fallout was originally made by Americans, set in America and uses American 1950s culture and retro-futuristic sci-fi themes (which was mostly American). However, it also uses inspiration from other things such as the Mad Max films (which are Australian), and the game is not aimed mainly at Americans.

You don't have to be American to enjoy the Fallout games, considering how popular the series is around the world this is proven.

 

[Kair]

A projection of this world, only a lot more corrupt. In the dark world you can not rely on the moral integrity of anyone. It is close to the primal state. These dark worlds are a lot more familiar to people living in hostile societies, such as the United States. This is why I do not like when attempts at these dark worlds are so focused around the American audience that it is no longer a completely fictional dark world, but a projection of the fears and doubts of Americans.

Well New vegas does exactly that, and I still don't understand the whole American thing.

Fallout was originally made by Americans, set in America and uses American 1950s culture and retro-futuristic sci-fi themes (which was mostly American). However, it also uses inspiration from other things such as the Mad Max films (which are Australian), and the game is not aimed mainly at Americans.

You don't have to be American to enjoy the Fallout games, considering how popular the series is around the world this is proven.

I never said I don't enjoy the fallout games, I said I did not enjoy New Vegas. I really think Bethesda pulled it off when making Fallout 3. It was in comparison to Fallout 3 that I felt the obvious appeal to the American audience.
It has nothing at all to do with the American mood, Fallout 3 had the same without appealing to the American audience.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

A projection of this world, only a lot more corrupt. In the dark world you can not rely on the moral integrity of anyone. It is close to the primal state. These dark worlds are a lot more familiar to people living in hostile societies, such as the United States. This is why I do not like when attempts at these dark worlds are so focused around the American audience that it is no longer a completely fictional dark world, but a projection of the fears and doubts of Americans.

Well New vegas does exactly that, and I still don't understand the whole American thing.

Fallout was originally made by Americans, set in America and uses American 1950s culture and retro-futuristic sci-fi themes (which was mostly American). However, it also uses inspiration from other things such as the Mad Max films (which are Australian), and the game is not aimed mainly at Americans.

You don't have to be American to enjoy the Fallout games, considering how popular the series is around the world this is proven.

I never said I don't enjoy the fallout games, I said I did not enjoy New Vegas. I really think Bethesda pulled it off when making Fallout 3. It was in comparison to Fallout 3 that I felt the obvious appeal to the American audience.
It has nothing at all to do with the American mood, Fallout 3 had the same without appealing to the American audience.

It sounds kind of like you've got deeper non-game related issues to discuss with this whole "Americans suck" fixation. Gun Control is nooottt a gaming related subject.

 

[Dreadman75]

I must have skipped most of the mines and whatnot mostly because aside from the odd unique weapon here or there, there was just no reason to explore them. There was little to no history of the series as a whole because the makers of Fallout: NV seemed to automatically assume that you played Fallouts 1 and 2 and in that respect the game fell short on delivering a Game of the Year experience like its predecessor.

There's plenty of history in New Vegas, Caesar alone gives you years and years of information about the formation of Caesars Legion, Chief Hanlon gives you a lot of information about the First battle of Hoover Dam and the current campaigns of the NCR, Marcus gives you information about the Chosen One and the formation of Jacobstown, Raul gives us some first insight into Mexico after the bombs fell, Veronica gives us more, proper, insight to what it's like to live under the dogmatic BoS and then there's the whole story of the Sierra Madre in Dead Money...plus heaps more.

There are plenty of stories to be told in New Vegas, you just need to look for them.

New Vegas was made more to appeal to those who have played Fallout 1/2 and know the story of the NCR and California. Bethesda tried to appeal in the same way but they failed quite badly by using factions and characters from those games and skewing them to their liking (Brotherhood of Steel).

I never said that there was no history. Just that there was no history for the series as a WHOLE. If this story took place on the west coast why haven't we heard more about what the Chosen One or the Vault Dweller accomplished?! We only get a few lines of dialogue referencing the Chosen One and nothing whatsoever about the Vault Dweller. For a game that is supposed to continue from where Interplay left off it seems like Obsidian tried a bit too hard in trying to replicate Fallout 3's success in attracting new players to the franchise.

The history you're talking about are the histories of the factions and the people that will only appear in this ONE game. I mean, who really cares about Caesar's legion's history. He's just a old man on a power trip trying to live out a boyhood fantasy.

And one more thing: Why is it that YOU feel the need to try and contradict everyone else's opinion when said opinions are anything less than complimentary towards Fallout: New Vegas. I understand that you like the game but why do you feel the need to defend a game that doesn't need defending? Let people have their own opinions.

 

[ChupathingyX]

I never said that there was no history. Just that there was no history for the series as a WHOLE. If this story took place on the west coast why haven't we heard more about what the Chosen One or the Vault Dweller accomplished?!

Well there's the NCR, obviously we know that the Chosen One did not destroy the NCR and according to Marcus he/she suceeded in destroying the Enclave oil rig, which is also evidenced by the Enclave Remnants.

We also know that the Followers have expanded their business to the outer reaches of California and into Nevada an we know more about the NCR's expansions into Mexico.

The history you're talking about are the histories of the factions and the people that will only appear in this ONE game. I mean, who really cares about Caesar's legion's history. He's just a old man on a power trip trying to live out a boyhood fantasy.

I'm pretty sure we can expect to see the NCR again in the future, and who knows what Obsidian could do with other factions such as House, the BoS, Caesars Legion and others. We don't even know what the canon ending of New Vegas is so we can't decide how it ended, for all we know the Legion could've won?

And one more thing: Why is it that YOU feel the need to try and contradict everyone else's opinion when said opinions are anything less than complimentary towards Fallout: New Vegas. I understand that you like the game but why do you feel the need to defend a game that doesn't need defending? Let people have their own opinions.

A lot, and I do mean a lot of people here say things that are downright ignorant or misinformed about New Vegas and the Fallout universe in general. Things like aliens not being canon, the principles of the BoS, the origins of the Super Mutants and how the Fallout series was more about rebuilding civilisation than it was just primitive survival.

Many people were introduced with Fallout 3, because of this they had some kind of weird assumption that everything in Fallout 3 was right and there was nothing wrong about it. Then they play New Vegas and because it's different to F3 they assume this means it was "wrong" or a comment that makes me twitch when I read it..."didn't capture the feel of Fallout 3".

I know a good deal of lore in the Fallout worlds, so when people say things like "The BoS in New Vegas weren't like F3" as a negative, I automatically know that that person has not played the original games or has very little knowledge of the Fallout world and I just see to it to fix that.

I'll let people have their opinions, if they like Fallout 3 let them, but if you don't like Fallout: New Vegas for reasons that don't make sense mostly because you know nothing about Fallouts history, that's when I step in. When someone says that NV had a bad storyline because it was focused on society and civilisation instead of trying to get by...I must step in.

You could say "ignorance is bliss" and that knowing less about the Fallout lore will make you like Fallout 3 more, but ignorance is never an excuse for me.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

I never said that there was no history. Just that there was no history for the series as a WHOLE. If this story took place on the west coast why haven't we heard more about what the Chosen One or the Vault Dweller accomplished?!

Well there's the NCR, obviously we know that the Chosen One did not destroy the NCR and according to Marcus he/she suceeded in destroying the Enclave oil rig, which is also evidenced by the Enclave Remnants.

We also know that the Followers have expanded their business to the outer reaches of California and into Nevada an we know more about the NCR's expansions into Mexico.

The history you're talking about are the histories of the factions and the people that will only appear in this ONE game. I mean, who really cares about Caesar's legion's history. He's just a old man on a power trip trying to live out a boyhood fantasy.

I'm pretty sure we can expect to see the NCR again in the future, and who knows what Obsidian could do with other factions such as House, the BoS, Caesars Legion and others. We don't even know what the canon ending of New Vegas is so we can't decide how it ended, for all we know the Legion could've won?

And one more thing: Why is it that YOU feel the need to try and contradict everyone else's opinion when said opinions are anything less than complimentary towards Fallout: New Vegas. I understand that you like the game but why do you feel the need to defend a game that doesn't need defending? Let people have their own opinions.

A lot, and I do mean a lot of people here say things that are downright ignorant or misinformed about New Vegas and the Fallout universe in general. Things like aliens not being canon, the principles of the BoS, the origins of the Super Mutants and how the Fallout series was more about rebuilding civilisation than it was just primitive survival.

Many people were introduced with Fallout 3, because of this they had some kind of weird assumption that everything in Fallout 3 was right and there was nothing wrong about it. Then they play New Vegas and because it's different to F3 they assume this means it was "wrong" or a comment that makes me twitch when I read it..."didn't capture the feel of Fallout 3".

I know a good deal of lore in the Fallout worlds, so when people say things like "The BoS in New Vegas weren't like F3" as a negative, I automatically know that that person has not played the original games or has very little knowledge of the Fallout world and I just see to it to fix that.

I'll let people have their opinions, if they like Fallout 3 let them, but if you don't like Fallout: New Vegas for reasons that don't make sense mostly because you know nothing about Fallouts history, that's when I step in. When someone says that NV had a bad storyline because it was focused on society and civilisation instead of trying to get by...I must step in.

You could say "ignorance is bliss" and that knowing less about the Fallout lore will make you like Fallout 3 more, but ignorance is never an excuse for me.

Many of New Vega's plotlines, including Ceasars Legion and the Followers, relate to lore from the unreleased but planned Fallout: Van Buren that never coalesced before Black Isle disintergrated. Effectivly, the next fallout game was always intended to be set in the southern midwest- New Mexico or Arizona I believe. NV is the spiritual successor to Van Buren, combining the undone plot elements from Van Buren with, yes, some of the modernezation from Fallout 3 to maintain the sale margins and resurgant popularity that Fallout 3 enjoyed. Effectivly, it was a compromise between their old Fallout notes and what the public had come to expect from the franchise in this decade. I thought it turned out rather well.

It is of course, totally true that Fallout 3 was a travesty as far as 'lore' was concerned, but there is in universe explaination for this - the BoS in Fallout 3 were isolated for decades, and adopted new practices to survived. The 'Outcasts" you see wandering around in Fallout 3 are actually BoS traditionalists who rejected Lyons new more open approach to the BoS and hit out on their own. Unwilling to slaughter his own men, Lyons let them go.

As for the Super Mutants in FO3 I believe it's implied that there was a small supply of FEV somewhere that resulted in them but i'm unsure.

Whatever the case, the events of FO3 can be considered an extremly isolated incident from the rest of the Fallout universe.

 

[ChupathingyX]

It is of course, totally true that Fallout 3 was a travesty as far as 'lore' was concerned, but there is in universe explaination for this - the BoS in Fallout 3 were isolated for decades, and adopted new practices to survived. The 'Outcasts" you see wandering around in Fallout 3 are actually BoS traditionalists who rejected Lyons new more open approach to the BoS and hit out on their own. Unwilling to slaughter his own men, Lyons let them go.

Bethesda get brownie points for the Outcasts, but I feel like the Outcasts weren't even needed in the first place.

The problem I had with the BoS in F3 is that because so many people liked them and their altruistic ways they saw the BoS as a crusading force who fight for the weak and this was their expectations for New Vegas.

The problem is when people saw the BoS in NV they didn't like them as much because they were different to Fallout 3, even though technically they shared more in common with the Californian BoS than the East coast BoS.

 

[Dalek Caan]

No. I continued to help the NCR and do any side-quests. Collecting items also helped.

 

[JemothSkarii]

I killed him the first time, crucified him, then I realised he was voiced by Chandler. I quickly sprinted back to the Legion camp and tearfully gave him a quick release from life. From then on, I rescued him every time, and I smiled at the opportunities which arose. I generally supported the NCR (cept the first time, I sided with Caesar as he supported same sex...things) because you could negotiate a truce with the BoS. But no, I think the game really opens up when you deal with Benny.

Off topic, but am I the only one fond of the Powder Gangers? and I am SO happy the Burned Man calls Caesar Cee-sar rather than Kai-sar.

 

[ChupathingyX]

Off topic, but am I the only one fond of the Powder Gangers? and I am SO happy the Burned Man calls Caesar Cee-sar rather than Kai-sar.

I don't understand why everyone hates that so much, that is how you pronounce "Caesar" in the old latin way, and the "proper" way to pronounce the "ae" part is like "eye" and in Latin the "c" is a hard "c", which mens it's pronounced as a "K". Put all of that together and the pronunciation becomes "kaiser".[footnote]I'm no Latin expert so I may have made a mistake there[/footnote]

 

[Drizzitdude]

I actualy do know what the OP is talking about. It just didn't really feel like MY story anymore. The only thing that kept me interested in the game for as long as I was, was collecting every weapon, unique weapon, and weapon mod.

 

[Creator002]

On my first playthrough, the Caeser's legion questline was fun enough for me to see it through to the end. I didn't experience what you're describing.

 

[Iammatt]

How does anyone get bored of New Vegas? Well I'll admit when I first got it, I felt the same way in Primm. But as the game progresses it just gets fun, having more guns, more armor, more everything is just fun. I need 2000 caps to get into The Strip, I can't win at any of the casino games in Freeside? Suddenly, I have a new mission to completely wipe out the Freeside Casino.

I died multiple times, but it was fun, and I got their money, and into the Strip. What's that Caesar's Legion? You want me to work with you? Suddenly my goal is to destroy the fort with only a silenced pistol and a knife(and picking up weapons off others)

 

[surg3n]

I got kinda sick of babysitting in F:NV - I'd rather do more selfish missions, like tracking down Benny, rather than constantly running errands for people you don't even like. Fallout3 had this sense of urgency, you always felt you were getting closer, but NV lost a lot of that.

Maybe I just played it wrong, but the interesting missions, and cool people all seemed to be on the other side of the map, and it did take a while to get to them. Like that crazy mutant with the wig and glasses, she/it should have been the second person you meet!. There didn't seem to be the same lost souls that there were in F3 - I don't mind helping out some chick with a nuka-cola affliction, or help ghouls take over a building, I enjoyed those parts - and sadly there isn't anything comparable in F:NV. I like F:NV of course, but lived in Fallout3.

 

[GameMaNiAC]

... As soon as you see Benny's broken ragdoll plummet to the floor...

Assuming you picked the option of killing him. I, being a 'hero' type of character, decided to forgive him and let him go. And I was quite disappointed when I found out he doesn't make any more appearances afterwards.

He was.

He was supposed to sneak attack you and call you a idiot.

Strange. That didn't happen. He just left, never to be heard from again. Are you serious or just pulling my leg?

 

[AlternatePFG]

... As soon as you see Benny's broken ragdoll plummet to the floor...

Assuming you picked the option of killing him. I, being a 'hero' type of character, decided to forgive him and let him go. And I was quite disappointed when I found out he doesn't make any more appearances afterwards.

He was.

He was supposed to sneak attack you and call you a idiot.

Strange. That didn't happen. He just left, never to be heard from again. Are you serious or just pulling my leg?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Benny#Notes

Nope, it was cut from the game. Don't know if it was for time constraints or something else.

 

[GameMaNiAC]

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Benny#Notes

Nope, it was cut from the game. Don't know if it was for time constraints or something else.

Ah. Alright. For a second there I thought my game may have bugged up.