Fantasy games need to stop stealing from LOTR

[ultratog1028]

I've always noticed this to. Why do Dwarves have to have beards and be drunk and live in the mountains? Why can't they live near the sea, be Pirates or merchants and have awesome mustaches? Sure that only changes a few things around but that took me all of five seconds to come up with.

Who says Elves must live in Forests? How about a group of desert nomadic elves who actually have shorter life spans then humans. Hell if defintions are the problem then how about MAKE UP a new species instead of use the same ones? Armadillo-folk aren't really touched on yet.

 

[Carlston]

Thing is LOTR And even DND are mythos taken from almost every major culture and mixed into a big soup of good story telling.


Hard to break that when everyone expects a troll to be a giant flesh eating regenerating monster.

 

[Vern5]

this thread makes my head hurt...

so we are to assume Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, etc... didnt exist(in myth/legends/story) until Tolkien wrote his books?

There are always gonna be archetypes out there that most everyone will draw from.

If the thread makes your head hurt than take a break from the screen. I was saying that a vast majority of fantasy genre games seem to draw almost all of their inspiration from Tolkien lore instead of inventing their own or at least attempting to differentiate themselves from previously put forth notions of what Fantasy is.

Of course elves, dwarves and orcs existed in mythology but they were not so pigeon holed into specific behaviors until Tolkien wrote them into those roles. Tolkien didn't invent the things in his books but he did manage to shackle them into their roles for years after his books first hit the market.

 

[Vampire cat]

There really isn't an issue here. It's European mythology and fiction the games you are surely referring to are based upon, not the LOTR universe. Both the World of Warcraft and Warhammer Fantasy world are two sides of the same coin, but they seem vastly different in many crucial ways, making for two separate experiences. Sure, dwarfs are short and strong, why wouldn't they be? A slender dwarf who taller than a man would be silly, and so would a short and fat elf. They are based on the same mythology in the end, so similar traits should only be expected. This doesn't hinder any other form of innovation, and if you actually get into the LOTR, WoW and Warhammer universes you'll notice how vastly different they truly are.

There are much more interesting versions out there than you'd think. Personally? I don't really enjoy when someone colors too far outside the lines on this. I have opinions on how an elf should be. I know what a dwarf looks like, from years of reading fantasy. Vampires DON'T sparkle, and they'd fucking kill you, that's how they are supposed to be!

*ahem* Ignore my ranting. Some times my fellow female teenagers get the better of me...

 

[Vern5]

There really isn't an issue here. It's European mythology and fiction the games you are surely referring to are based upon, not the LOTR universe. Both the World of Warcraft and Warhammer Fantasy world are two sides of the same coin, but they seem vastly different in many crucial ways, making for two separate experiences. Sure, dwarfs are short and strong, why wouldn't they be? A slender dwarf who taller than a man would be silly, and so would a short and fat elf. They are based on the same mythology in the end, so similar traits should only be expected. This doesn't hinder any other form of innovation, and if you actually get into the LOTR, WoW and Warhammer universes you'll notice how vastly different they truly are.

There are much more interesting versions out there than you'd think. Personally? I don't really enjoy when someone colors too far outside the lines on this. I have opinions on how an elf should be. I know what a dwarf looks like, from years of reading fantasy. Vampires DON'T sparkle, and they'd fucking kill you, that's how they are supposed to be!

*ahem* Ignore my ranting. Some times my fellow female teenagers get the better of me...

The thing is, I am at least moderately knowledgeable with all of those settings and I have no problem with their existence. What I am bothered by is new trends forming like the setting of Dragon Age and Oblivion's mundanity (mostly because Morrowind was so unique and interesting. Mesopotamian-inspired Dwarves, for example).

Yes, Dwarves and Elves will always cosmetically appear as they always have. Except maybe Elves. I would kill to play a game as a Keebler Elf but that's a different thread. Warhammer and WoW both provide innovations on past frameworks by differentiating the customs, styles and culture of their respective Elves and Dwarves but also put in the effort to develop many new races that are just as or more important than Elves, Dwarves and Orcs. That I have no problem with.

There is, however, a definite lack of exploration into just what can be achieved when you toy with old conventions. You say you don't like the idea of diverging away from fantasy you are accustomed to? Maybe it's just that you haven't seen it done right. Planescape: Torment went in the perfect direction with this, as did Arcanum, for the most part.

I will agree. One distinct way of not innovating well is to change a certain convention for the worse by reducing character traits instead of expanding upon them or changing them to an equal degree. The Restructuring of Vampires into sparkling, girl-porn, for example, is a terrible way to change.

But do not be discouraged by on restructuring simply because it was done to prey on the demographic of the lonely female. Change and evolution are what make for stronger and more entertaining media.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

(mostly because Morrowind was so unique and interesting. Mesopotamian-inspired Dwarves, for example).

'Dwarves' in The Elder Scrolls are an extinct subtype of Mer (Elf) that engaged in activities that other fantasy works have associated with Dwarves, activities which have their roots in Norse mythology. Having Dwarves and Elves so closely related also has something of a Norse influence, as both 'races' as well as trolls all started as maggots. The Norse had some fucked up mythology going on.

 

[Vern5]

(mostly because Morrowind was so unique and interesting. Mesopotamian-inspired Dwarves, for example).

'Dwarves' in The Elder Scrolls are an extinct subtype of Mer (Elf) that engaged in activities that other fantasy works have associated with Dwarves, activities which have their roots in Norse mythology. Having Dwarves and Elves so closely related also has something of a Norse influence, as both 'races' as well as trolls all started as maggots. The Norse had some fucked up mythology going on.

Yep, they were originally known as the Dwemer, helped the Chimer drive the Nords from Morrowind and then eventually ended up going to war with the early Tribunal. One of the tonal architects working with the heart of Lorkhan performed some kind of ritual during the war that either completely destroyed the Dwemer or flung them into another reality. Either way, all of the 'Dwarves' that had been on Tamriel at the time of said ritual were removed.

Having now released my carefully sealed Nerd upon you, I must pause and reflect. The handling of the "Dwarves" in TES lore is, I think, the most interesting approach to exploring new genre conventions. Hell, even the High Elves of TES feel more cosmopolitan rather than the whole race being devoted to tree-hugging. The Wood elves hug trees but then, they're cannibals (another great example of "totally switching it up").

 

[Bostur]

I think if someone were to make up a completely new fantasy setting, most of use would dismiss it as being too weird. We need something to relate to, and we can only relate to what we know. All those elves, dwarves and orcs they are just humans in disguise, making up more disguises wouldn't change much. The stories are the same, some dudes don't like the other dudes and start killing them. That doesn't make the stories any worse, but real innovation is very hard.

Changes do happen but very slowly, 300 years from now there will probably be a few minor changes ;-)


For a somewhat different setting with a western style, I can reccomend a graphical adventure called "The Longest Journey":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_Journey

Its not much of a game really, the typical adventure puzzles are very simple. Its more of a point and click story with a few speed bumps. For a point and click story, its very good though.
Oh and the title isn't false advertising, its very, very long.

 

[Vampire cat]

There really isn't an issue here. It's European mythology and fiction the games you are surely referring to are based upon, not the LOTR universe. Both the World of Warcraft and Warhammer Fantasy world are two sides of the same coin, but they seem vastly different in many crucial ways, making for two separate experiences. Sure, dwarfs are short and strong, why wouldn't they be? A slender dwarf who taller than a man would be silly, and so would a short and fat elf. They are based on the same mythology in the end, so similar traits should only be expected. This doesn't hinder any other form of innovation, and if you actually get into the LOTR, WoW and Warhammer universes you'll notice how vastly different they truly are.

There are much more interesting versions out there than you'd think. Personally? I don't really enjoy when someone colors too far outside the lines on this. I have opinions on how an elf should be. I know what a dwarf looks like, from years of reading fantasy. Vampires DON'T sparkle, and they'd fucking kill you, that's how they are supposed to be!

*ahem* Ignore my ranting. Some times my fellow female teenagers get the better of me...

The thing is, I am at least moderately knowledgeable with all of those settings and I have no problem with their existence. What I am bothered by is new trends forming like the setting of Dragon Age and Oblivion's mundanity (mostly because Morrowind was so unique and interesting. Mesopotamian-inspired Dwarves, for example).

Yes, Dwarves and Elves will always cosmetically appear as they always have. Except maybe Elves. I would kill to play a game as a Keebler Elf but that's a different thread. Warhammer and WoW both provide innovations on past frameworks by differentiating the customs, styles and culture of their respective Elves and Dwarves but also put in the effort to develop many new races that are just as or more important than Elves, Dwarves and Orcs. That I have no problem with.

There is, however, a definite lack of exploration into just what can be achieved when you toy with old conventions. You say you don't like the idea of diverging away from fantasy you are accustomed to? Maybe it's just that you haven't seen it done right. Planescape: Torment went in the perfect direction with this, as did Arcanum, for the most part.

I will agree. One distinct way of not innovating well is to change a certain convention for the worse by reducing character traits instead of expanding upon them or changing them to an equal degree. The Restructuring of Vampires into sparkling, girl-porn, for example, is a terrible way to change.

But do not be discouraged by on restructuring simply because it was done to prey on the demographic of the lonely female. Change and evolution are what make for stronger and more entertaining media.

Having races get all new traits and so on may at times work well, but I don't really think it's necessary to get into the well established mythology that is already in place. May be that dwarfs tend to be similar in most works of fiction, but when you put them into a new world with new places and a completely new history, it becomes almost unnoticeable that they are somewhat traditional.

I do like when a work of fiction creates new or hybrid races, or maybe just variations of races. Take for example the Chaos Dwarfs and the Skaven, from Warhammer Fantasy. In their stripped down basics, they are as linear as any dwarf or elf of any work of fiction, but if you get just a little bit off the surface they are so deliciously different and intriguing. Another example is the elves of WoW. Similar to the classic ones, yet wonderfully different. Too bad I found the game play too boring to keep me going at WoW, cause I enjoy the lore =3. TES also takes a stab at a few interesting variations of the established races, and it all works out in the end. These are all universes that any fantasy fan would immediately feel at home in, but yet have a lot to discover and learn about the races and the history.

A dwarf SHOULD be that short, broad and usually bearded character. They should not be skilled in conventional magic, but rather have their alternative methods (these have some interesting variations from world to world) which is unique to their race. They should generally be gold-hungry and have a society heavily based on honor and duty to accompany their natural greed. This is how the dwarf tends to be, but they are so very general traits. A work of fiction can add amazing layers onto this to create a new and beautifully interesting work of fiction, while still letting those that are into fantasy see the similarities and feel familiar.

I also adore Chaos in the Warhammer universe. No, not what is perceived as their "race", but what chaos is in the "fluff", as it is called. Chaos is this wonderfully random, manipulative and corrupt thing that is capable of blending with anything to create something new and totally unexpected, but yet incorporate the traits that is generally associated with their race. Most fantasy universes have this element, although it's not always named.

 

[MrSnugglesworth]

LOTR needs to stop having great material to steal from.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I saw this thread and I thought of Arcanum that game took tolkienishness and put a new and interesting twist on it, damn I miss that game. Can someone make a sequel please?

 

[Vern5]

Having races get all new traits and so on may at times work well, but I don't really think it's necessary to get into the well established mythology that is already in place. May be that dwarfs tend to be similar in most works of fiction, but when you put them into a new world with new places and a completely new history, it becomes almost unnoticeable that they are somewhat traditional.

I do like when a work of fiction creates new or hybrid races, or maybe just variations of races. Take for example the Chaos Dwarfs and the Skaven, from Warhammer Fantasy. In their stripped down basics, they are as linear as any dwarf or elf of any work of fiction, but if you get just a little bit off the surface they are so deliciously different and intriguing. Another example is the elves of WoW. Similar to the classic ones, yet wonderfully different. Too bad I found the game play too boring to keep me going at WoW, cause I enjoy the lore =3. TES also takes a stab at a few interesting variations of the established races, and it all works out in the end. These are all universes that any fantasy fan would immediately feel at home in, but yet have a lot to discover and learn about the races and the history.

A dwarf SHOULD be that short, broad and usually bearded character. They should not be skilled in conventional magic, but rather have their alternative methods (these have some interesting variations from world to world) which is unique to their race. They should generally be gold-hungry and have a society heavily based on honor and duty to accompany their natural greed. This is how the dwarf tends to be, but they are so very general traits. A work of fiction can add amazing layers onto this to create a new and beautifully interesting work of fiction, while still letting those that are into fantasy see the similarities and feel familiar.

I also adore Chaos in the Warhammer universe. No, not what is perceived as their "race", but what chaos is in the "fluff", as it is called. Chaos is this wonderfully random, manipulative and corrupt thing that is capable of blending with anything to create something new and totally unexpected, but yet incorporate the traits that is generally associated with their race. Most fantasy universes have this element, although it's not always named.

The question is why? Why do dwarves all have to lust for gold and be unable to do magic and have heavy codes of honor? Why do any of us have to believe that when an actual Dwarf is just a very short human being? Why latch onto these genre conventions? Because they are safe? Safety is nice for a while but, if we do not attempt to look for innovation, then we cheat ourselves from truly enjoying what could easily be something amazing!

Why not have Dwarf-like entities that are completely amphibious and jealously guard rivers and lakes because they value the sanctity of a balanced and preserved aquatic eco-system? It is not impossible to innovate and it is only a little harder to innovate well.

If you really enjoy Chaos then you should know the thrill of breaking old rules and customs in order to create something new and wonderful. I think that is what the fantasy genre needs. A game that breaks all of the rules and breaks them well.

I guess I'm a worshiper of Tzeentch, after all.

 

[TiefBlau]

With all due respect, however much that is, you're wrong.

I understand your frustration but the origin of Tolkiens world was straight from English/European mythology. He took history and myth and put it into a nice readable package. As such Tolkien=European mythology/fantasy.

So naturally any fantasy drawing from european myths will always seem in some way related to tolkien simply because its all derritive of the same source material.

As someone else pointed out if you take fantasy from other cultures, such as japan, its totally differernt, not because theyre not ripping off tolkien, but because theyre taking it from their own mythos.

In summary: If you have bread and beans theres only so many different meals you can make from it.

No. Just...no.

Before Tolkien, I'm pretty sure elves were not nature-loving bow-and-arrow magic-using humanoids, dwarves weren't short, bearded, axe-wielding Scottish-accented (seriously, wtf?) midgets, and dragons and orcs weren't ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY OMG enemies.

Yes, elves and dwarves and orcs and dragons existed in myth.

No, they were not nearly as closed to interpretation as they are today.

 

[Grey_Focks]

eh, gonna have to disagree. First off, as everyone else has said, Tolkien's works are based on European fantasy, so they really weren't his ideas to begin with, he just refined them.

second, on the surface I can see how they all look the same, but it's the details that really separate various fantasy games/settings, and make them stick out.

Let us take a look at a common enemy, the Orc. In LOTR, they are tainted elves who despise the sun, happiness and art. In warcraft, they are a noble nomadic warrior caste, more similar to Native Americans than Tolkien's Orcs. Third, there are the Warhammer Orks, who are really just battle hungry soccer hooligans who usually serve as a comic relief in whatever setting they're in, be it Warhammer fantasy or 40k.

There really are more examples like that, too. Look at elves, in LOTR, they are a race of immortal demi-gods, whereas in Dragon Age, they're either bands gypsies or servants/slaves to humans.. Though, they seem to really love nature and bows no matter what setting they're in, only real exception being the magic obsessed Blood Elves of Warcraft, but you get the point. On the surface, all these fantasy games probably look like the same thing copy-paste "Tolkien ripoff", but a few of them really do have their own legs to stand on.


.....that is, if you're willing to except that dwarves will always me drunk little people who live under mountains and forge stuff.

 

[Vampire cat]

The question is why? Why do dwarves all have to lust for gold and be unable to do magic and have heavy codes of honor? Why do any of us have to believe that when an actual Dwarf is just a very short human being? Why latch onto these genre conventions? Because they are safe? Safety is nice for a while but, if we do not attempt to look for innovation, then we cheat ourselves from truly enjoying what could easily be something amazing!

Why not have Dwarf-like entities that are completely amphibious and jealously guard rivers and lakes because they value the sanctity of a balanced and preserved aquatic eco-system? It is not impossible to innovate and it is only a little harder to innovate well.

If you really enjoy Chaos then you should know the thrill of breaking old rules and customs in order to create something new and wonderful. I think that is what the fantasy genre needs. A game that breaks all of the rules and breaks them well.

I guess I'm a worshiper of Tzeentch, after all.

Oh no, don't misunderstand. Create new races for new universes, of course! I'd love to see new and interesting things pop out of creators minds, I adore every new alien race that is well presented and with an interesting story backing them. I love the idea of a new and strange creature.

I do, however, not agree that you call you aquatic frog-dwarf people for dwarfs, you see? Because they are not the dwarfs we're used to from established fantasy. Ah damn it, that was poorly explained. Uh... It's like how Blizzard called their elves for Night Elves. They are elves, but not high, wood or any of those, they are a "new" or at least different kind of elf. It's innovative and exiting, but without breaking any pre-made barriers and getting people confused. Chaos is so great because it's an excuse to make those changes to existing mythology. A little chaos dwarf, a little Norse tribesman gone nuts with twisted magic, a dash of elf dipped in corruptible energy, it's all lovely! Go out there and create your amphibious short people and make them blue! But find some cool and new name to give them, don't slap the old "dwarf" sticker on the back ^^.

And I guess I'm a Slaanesh lass myself. Shallow beauty and tentacles *rawr*.

 

[2xDouble]

Uh...
The Charr [http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/charr/].
The Asura [http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/asura/].
The Norn [http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/norn/].

I never saw anything like them in Tolkien.

 

[Bostur]

Edit: My post got outdated

 

[lapan]

Uh...
The Charr [http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/charr/].
The Asura [http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/asura/].
The Norn [http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/norn/].

I never saw anything like them in Tolkien.

You forgot to mention the dwarfs, who were exactly like their Tolkien cousins