Fare well welfare....

[Eskay]

This was spurred on by the discussion about the woman who had 8 children and who picks up the tabs for this. I've been considering the nature of the state supporting the needy and thought I'd throw a proposition out there. That said any general chat on the subject I'd more than welcome.

I've recently started doing free legal work, representing people in social security tribunals appealing benefits decisions. Its a massive area that takes up a lot of time (I live in the UK for reference). The majority of these cases are for generally needy people, who sometimes simply need a few months support to get back on their feet. But I'm increasingly disillusioned. The amount of fraud that goes on highlights the selfish nature of people.

Now bear with me on this.

We also have free state schooling in the UK. Very good, absolutely necessary, but truancy is a massive problem. Its pretty unbelievable considering how people used to riot and war for education, now these ungrateful ***** wont turn up to free classes. The solution has been so far to imprison parents of frequent truants (no, really!). This, unsurprisingly has had no effect, truancy and arrests have both been increasing for years. Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

 

[GreenDevilJF]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

Nothing, no work no food.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

Nothing, no work no food.

People won't simply sit about and say "oh well, I can't eat". They will steal. Lock them up if you like, but that costs a whole lot more.

 

[GreenDevilJF]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

Nothing, no work no food.

People won't simply sit about and say "oh well, I can't eat". They will steal. Lock them up if you like, but that costs a whole lot more.

K, they can starve in prison.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

Nothing, no work no food.

People won't simply sit about and say "oh well, I can't eat". They will steal. Lock them up if you like, but that costs a whole lot more.

K, they can starve in prison.

So you want to lock people up and starve them... because they have the audacity to be poor and need help in the first place?

Congratulations on making my ignore list.

 

[YouGetWhatsGiven]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

Nothing, no work no food.

People won't simply sit about and say "oh well, I can't eat". They will steal. Lock them up if you like, but that costs a whole lot more.

K, they can starve in prison.

Prison would be better. They would get fed in prison.

 

[Eskay]

There are jobs available to people with no qualifications. There is no need for them to starve, they simply have to reap what they so. So they've ended up a dustbin man/window cleaner/burger flipper. Guess what, its their own damn fault!

These people won't starve, they just need to live with the consequences of their decisions. You'll have to forgive me for not caring that it won't be a very good life.

 

[GreenDevilJF]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

Nothing, no work no food.

People won't simply sit about and say "oh well, I can't eat". They will steal. Lock them up if you like, but that costs a whole lot more.

K, they can starve in prison.

So you want to lock people up and starve them... because they have the audacity to be poor and need help in the first place?

Congratulations on making my ignore list.

They had the audacity to sit on their ass and do nothing, thus they shouldn't get anything.

Why should people who went to school and got a job be expected to foot the bill of people or didn't give enough of a shit to do so themselves?

 

[Scarecrow38]

This represents the major problem with this issue, there's no proper answer. The orignal post and the following replies just show how each time you fix one aspect you knock another out of place.

I think what you have to say it what's worse: watching teens knock back a beneficial service but still helping the many many people who take full advantage of it OR trying to physically punish truants for making a choice about their own life OR then removing the service from both truants and students OR punishing everyone left, right and centre for letting this happen to them.

Even though welfare abuse (through truancy or simply living off the dole with no effort to find work) is something that annoys me there's really no way to fix it without damaging alot of people in some way.

 

[magnus gallant]

sadly here in canada we have to pay for our school, but when you go the only people who are there are the people who really want to be in school. it isnt like high school at all.

as for welfare, my ex-girlfriends parents defrauded the welfare agency for the past 15-20 years, its pretty sick and i had no respect for them

 

[watchman 2353]

In America, our social services USE TO BE good. When you collected welfare you worked doing public service. And for free education, you tried to learn and work hard. Now it sucks. The well fair community thinks that they inherently deserve payment. I personally have no problem with people taking well fair between jobs, because they were laid off. Yet, when someone who never paid into the system collects money with no intent of ever getting a job, i.e. most American well fair community, it is despicable and they do not deserve it.

Secondly, I am a student, and when students that don't want to learn and would skip school come in, they only detract those that do. If people don't want to learn, don't force them. I need people to pump my gass and fill my shoping bags.

 

[GreenDevilJF]

In America, our social services USE TO BE good. When you collected welfare you worked doing public service. And for free education, you tried to learn and work hard. Now it sucks. The well fair community thinks that they inherently deserve payment. I personally have no problem with people taking well fair between jobs, because they were laid off. Yet, when someone who never paid into the system collects money with no intent of ever getting a job, i.e. most American well fair community, it is despicable and they do not deserve it.

Secondly, I am a student, and when students that don't want to learn and would skip school come in, they only detract those that do. If people don't want to learn, don't force them. I need people to pump my gass and fill my shoping bags.

Exactly, they don't do the work they shouldn't get the rewards.

 

[Eskay]

I think what you have to say it what's worse: watching teens knock back a beneficial service but still helping the many many people who take full advantage of it OR trying to physically punish truants for making a choice about their own life OR then removing the service from both truants and students OR punishing everyone left, right and centre for letting this happen to them.

I don't want to punish people for making a choice about their live. Not being given something that isn't yours is not a punishment.
What the system would do is qualify the right. You have to work to reap the benefit. The money will be available, the bar being set isn't very high either. This way the people who need it will still have it, its only those who don't deserve it (for the vast majority) who will be denied.

 

[captainwolfos]

I say it's not the kids' faults, but the parents. I know, a major cliché, but you find nowadays that kids are having kids, and thus have little to no control over them. If they cared. I know at least 4 different people of my own age or younger who are having kids purely so that they can scab benefits. Which also fits the description from the original post, as they have no qualifications, considering they did very poorly in their GCSE (though ironically, one of them gained £100 for most improvement since the mock GCSEs; needless to say the improvement was actually turning up).

I say stop kids from having kids!

 

[watchman 2353]

Another fear of mine is government health care. I do not want the government deciding my health care services. Also, I don't want to pay for others health care. Look at the way the government screws up everything else. I don't want corrupt politicians makeing medical decisions on my behalf. I am an objectivist, people should support themselves and their loved ones, and nobody else.

Also, I am pro life. the idea of the government PAYING for stem cell research and abortion appalls me. I will not fund such a system. AUDIT ME IF YOU DISSAGREE.

 

[bjj hero]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

I love you tomato, your a genuinely nice person. I sometimes find you a little idealistic but you always seem conserned for the welfare of others and the less needy.

First, no one will get their benefits stopped, starving shildren dont make for good news headlines.

I also work with plenty of benefits claimants, i dont particularly want to talk about in what capacity but im not a job centre troll. There are people who abuse the system. People who dont want to work for whatever reason. If you put me in power, my manifesto on welfare would run as follows:

New hand out card to be implimented: Instead of money that can go on tobacco, alcohol, drugs and gambling, consoles, you would be issued with a sort of debit card, i would raise payouts slightly but the card would only be able to purchace food, hygiene items, home goods etc. People would be looked after but benefits would quickly become a pain.

Helping the community and you: Everyone on jobseekers would do 30 hours a week voluntary work. charity shops, removing graffitti, litter picking, ground work. There are loads of jobs that need doing. Get the unemployed to do them. They learn skills, get used to working, time keeping, get a reference loads of benefits... No more staying in bed until 2 then playing xbox.

This would apply to the long term unemployed ie over 6 months. It would help those who want to find mork and motivate those that dont.

Truancy: Id take prolific truants away from the family thats failing them and put them in gated institutions where they are not allowed out during school hours, class would be on site, or after curfew, 8pm. There would be socialworker/youthworkers etc on site for support. a 6 month stint, back home. If you screw up again youre straight back.

It might sound harsh but you are neglecting your child if you dont get him/her an education. Youre hurting his chances in life.

The biggest risk factor for being an offender is being male, this is then followed by a lack of employment and education. Unfortunately in this country we now have 3rd generation unemployed where the grandparent and parents have never worked and now the kids are working age and doing nothing. Having a job is alien to them and things need to change...

Ill get off my soap box now

 

[Possiblyreef]

Currently i am attending college in the south of england, its not exclusive however if you have no will to learn and succeed you wont last long there if you get me.
the school i went to before had a lower than average results from last years GCSE's, its stupid how people dont feel the need to get an education and are quite happy with just leeching off the government and taxpayer
i think tomato makes valid points however yes they would be idealistic and not possible.
i work on the basis that my parents worked very hard to give me what i have now, i intend on doing the same for my kids or surpassing them to grant my kids what i can. if i had dropped out of school and gained no education im setting a fairly crappy example when i have kids.

i used to work with a guy that injured himself about 15years ago in a smelting accident, he does receive benefits for this however he works and pays his way right up to the amount he can (i mean after he does 30hours work the benefits would stop and the amount extra he needs to work for the money is stupid, like 125hours which he physically cant do) i think this is a fair way that he lives, he does what hes capable of, pays taxes and owns a house which he has a small mortgage on, technically i was more qualified than him by the time i was 15. hes doing the best he can with what he has avaliable.

back to the point i think that some sort of ration card should be given rather than money. your gas and electricity is paid for rather than you given the money then it goes to them, you gain no tv licence, child benefits are paid still, however you will go into the local supermarket and they will give you your "rations" which have been pre packed.
people that dont work, dont earn and dont contribute to society shouldnt be given anything they want because they cant be bothered when alot of people that DO work maybe worse off than them. my mentality is that no one is stupid or lazy enough to die of starvation, by just the humiliation of having your rations and no tv this should be motivation enough to get off your arse and better yourself

sorry if its a bit ranty, i even made a profile just for this ^^

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

I love you tomato, your a genuinely nice person. I sometimes find you a little idealistic but you always seem conserned for the welfare of others and the less needy.

First, no one will get their benefits stopped, starving shildren dont make for good news headlines.

I also work with plenty of benefits claimants, i dont particularly want to talk about in what capacity but im not a job centre troll. There are people who abuse the system. People who dont want to work for whatever reason. If you put me in power, my manifesto on welfare would run as follows:

New hand out card to be implimented: Instead of money that can go on tobacco, alcohol, drugs and gambling, consoles, you would be issued with a sort of debit card, i would raise payouts slightly but the card would only be able to purchace food, hygiene items, home goods etc. People would be looked after but benefits would quickly become a pain.

Helping the community and you: Everyone on jobseekers would do 30 hours a week voluntary work. charity shops, removing graffitti, litter picking, ground work. There are loads of jobs that need doing. Get the unemployed to do them. They learn skills, get used to working, time keeping, get a reference loads of benefits... No more staying in bed until 2 then playing xbox.

This would apply to the long term unemployed ie over 6 months. It would help those who want to find mork and motivate those that dont.

Problem is for lot of these schemes is they further stigmatize people who are poor (card schemes etc). I agree wholeheartedly on education/training new skills for unemployed. However we should be reasonable about it. Not only do the unemployed serve a useful purpose (a workforce reservoir which helps new business, expanding businesses, or businesses which loose people due to maternity leave/death/injury etc), but they also tend to be in areas where jobs can be few and far between, which isn't their fault. Education and training should be something useful, not simple schemes just intended to get people out of bed in the morning to make others feel better.

A lot of unemployment is tied up with ill mental health, and there is no better way to make people feel even more worthless and useless than to force them to do something which makes them think "I am useless" day after day.

The problem with some of the other examples is that they should already be carried out by people who are working. Cleaning litter, removing graffiti, ground work... yes, have unemployed do that. But give them a wage for it. If you intend to only give them a low wage then keep the hours reasonable.

Remember - originally it was never "welfare" but was "social security". It was designed specifically to keep the lower end of society from decending into chaos and savagery. As more and more of it has been knocked away, we are getting social problems such as violence, homelessness, truancy, illiteracy, and other such things all steming from the "underclass". The answer to this isn't to be even more harsh, as that will surely just make things even worse. In the long run it costs us far more to mistreat people than it does to give them a hand in life.