Fare well welfare....

[Possiblyreef]

however if i got you somewhere because of something you had done wrong and tell you you're worthless everyday, wouldn't you surely like to rise above that and better yourself to prove them wrong?
i think that once the conservatives get in as they will in the next election, a lot will change, i think handouts will be reduced to minimal.

but your part about mental health i totally agree with, some people do suffer therefore are unable to work. after screening all people that are eligible for benefits i think someone has to sit down and work out who is mentally/physically unfit for work and who is just bone-idle and lazy and then get the unfit into some sort of rehab or counselling or maybe hospital for injuries etc.

btw tomato are you English or?

 

[Eskay]

Remember - originally it was never "welfare" but was "social security". It was designed specifically to keep the lower end of society from decending into chaos and savagery.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/britain's-poor-people-now-beyond-the-pale-20080408855/

I'm afraid its to late for that...

(Joke, put the knives away!)

(You'll have to copy and paste the link)

There is a danger that social security (you're quite right, its still that I was just using the term for my oh so pithy title) is a disincentive to remove oneself from the underclass. Encouraging people to get jobs and giving them the means through education is far more important. People are far more likely to obey the laws of a society when they have something that they see the laws as protecting. I agree entirely with the public works idea, ignoring any autobahn parallells,it is a genuinely good and productive concept that will reduce the tax drain and increase the countries productivity.

I am however failing to see how my suggestion is being construed as mistreating people.

PossiblyReef: I have no gripe with Disability Living Allowances which by the sounds of it is what your friend is on, and entirely respect what he's made of himself.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

That's the idea, people with malnutrition have a very low birth rate. Problem solved in one generation!

 

[GreenDevilJF]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

That's the idea, people with malnutrition have a very low birth rate. Problem solved in one gerneration!

lol

 

[mattttherman3]

I may live in Canada but that sort of fraud happens here all the time, a girl in my high school was taking in employment insurance and was getting paid under the table at a job.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

however if i got you somewhere because of something you had done wrong and tell you you're worthless everyday, wouldn't you surely like to rise above that and better yourself to prove them wrong?
i think that once the conservatives get in as they will in the next election, a lot will change, i think handouts will be reduced to minimal.

It's easy to say that you would try to rise above it, however it isn't quite that straight-forward. For a start, simply getting a job can be a severe challenge. There was a job recently in Leicestershire for a police call operator. 600 people applied [http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/85086]. Whatever jobs are out there, they are gone quickly, and the competition for them is ferocious. With this credit crunch knocking out companies left right and centre, those few employers still expanding are spoiled for choice when it comes to applicants. Who would you employ? A guy who got layed off just before Christmas? Or a guy who had been out of work for 3 years? With this in mind, how easy is it for someone long term unemployed to actually get back into work?

Unemployment triples the risk of suicide [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3102933.stm]. I hate to think of taking people who are already having serious issues in their life (not having a job for a long time is pretty serious) and screwing them over even more. "Handouts" are currently at the bare minimum, so reducing them will only increase crime and probably push suicides even higher.

but your part about mental health i totally agree with, some people do suffer therefore are unable to work. after screening all people that are eligible for benefits i think someone has to sit down and work out who is mentally/physically unfit for work and who is just bone-idle and lazy and then get the unfit into some sort of rehab or counselling or maybe hospital for injuries etc.

btw tomato are you English or?

English.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

My uncle is on welfare. He's a truck driver- been one for most of his life -and, thanks to the fact that his company is randomly cutting work, he found himself made redundant. So he's on welfare.

I'll be on welfare until I can find a job in the UK. That £40 will be useful until I can be employed (waiting for September).


Here are some facts:

I The number of people who actually 'scab' off welfare is a remarkably low one, and such, the amount of money lost to them is nowhere near as great as is lost to other factors.

II Living off welfare is not a very good life. It's actually worse than begging, as beggars can at least make a little money

III Free education is not negotiable. Without it, the workforce of a country becomes stupid, when the workforce becomes stupid, the overall productivity drops like a rock through rotten wood. Suggesting the abandonment of it is idiocy.

IV Free healthcare is also ideal. Due to the phenomenon known as 'economies of scale', the cost of healthcare is actually much larger when it is left to private companies and individuals to manage. In short, public healthcare is far cheaper a cost when it is taken from tax money than when employers and individuals are paying for it. It also increases the overall productivity of the nation significantly.

V Starving people in prison leads to prison riots, escapes and more ravening psychotics loose on the streets. Another fail.

 

[Yog Sothoth]

I have A Modest Proposal [http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html].... why don't we just eat them?

 

[Rolling Thunder]

I was waiting for the Swift reference, and here it is.

I have A Modest Proposal [http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html].... why don't we just eat them?

You sir, are hereby knighted for services to public debate. You may now refer to yourself as Sir Yog Sogoth, speak about oneself in the third person and insult everything within 400 miles, years or fathoms.

 

[Midnghtjade83]

Perhaps it would help the discussion to get an "insider" opinion.

I was on the American welfare system for four years. I had the audacity to get knocked up at seventeen (shocking!). My mom is disabled from degenerative disc disease. I did it all...food stamps, welfare, medicaid, government housing (which was hideously invested with roaches and the carpet turned the bottoms of our feet black). That system helped me get back on my feet. Without it, I wouldn't have been able to get a job, put my son in daycare, or pay bills.

Now I'm married, with two kids, a mortgage, and all the trappings of suburbia. I'm also unemployed again. Laid off thanks to crappy economy. Jobs are few and far between. I make too much money for entry level but not enough for upper management.

Now while some of the programs suggested would be interesting, I would find volunteering 30 hours a week would significantly cut into my "begging local business for a job" time.

Pigeon-holing everyone into the "welfare people are inherently lazy" is just as bad as any other stereotype. Being poor doesn't make you a bad person. People that cheat the welfare system are the same people that would be cheating the IRS if they lived in a different tax bracket. So before making sweeping reforms, the government needs to consider if they're helping or hurting.

EDIT: I was on the system for four years. That is not the same as sitting on my ass for four years. I had a job for all but six months of that (which was spent adjusting to the baby). Welfare continues to help even after you get work...which should say something about whether minimum wage in America should be considered a "living wage".

 

[Your Mom is Attractive]

Would a better solution be to cut off the welfare of truants? Consider most on benefits have no qualifications, so surely we should punish those who are in that situation by their own laziness.

What are they going to eat?

They do have 8 kids you know... I'm sure noone will miss one or two of them.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Perhaps it would help the discussion to get an "insider" opinion.

I was on the American welfare system for four years. I had the audacity to get knocked up at seventeen (shocking!). My mom is disabled from degenerative disc disease. I did it all...food stamps, welfare, medicaid, government housing (which was hideously invested with roaches and the carpet turned the bottoms of our feet black). That system helped me get back on my feet. Without it, I wouldn't have been able to get a job, put my son in daycare, or pay bills.

Now I'm married, with two kids, a mortgage, and all the trappings of suburbia. I'm also unemployed again. Laid off thanks to crappy economy. Jobs are few and far between. I make too much money for entry level but not enough for upper management.

Now while some of the programs suggested would be interesting, I would find volunteering 30 hours a week would significantly cut into my "begging local business for a job" time.

Pigeon-holing everyone into the "welfare people are inherently lazy" is just as bad as any other stereotype. Being poor doesn't make you a bad person. People that cheat the welfare system are the same people that would be cheating the IRS if they lived in a different tax bracket. So before making sweeping reforms, the government needs to consider if they're helping or hurting.

EDIT: I was on the system for four years. That is not the same as sitting on my ass for four years. I had a job for all but six months of that (which was spent adjusting to the baby). Welfare continues to help even after you get work...which should say something about whether minimum wage in America should be considered a "living wage".

Well I am glad to hear/read you managed to get back on your feet and where mature enough at seventeen no less to do so, you have my congratulations.

Unfortunately you are among the rare few that are not exploiting the system these days. I knew people who did so for the better half a decade for the sole reason they did not feel like working, my cousin did this for quite some time, charging her own children rent while she collected unemployment and laid on the couch all day.

Actually the place I use to live was filled with people who were precisely that, exploiting the system because of lack of desire to work. One girl that lived in the house below my own some ten years ago was actually excited she turned eighteen because she could collect welfare. I believe the estimation here in Quebec is 68% if not greater of people asking for Government assistance have absolutely no business having it. Couple this with the fact Canada is worse than the United States because unlike the US we cut a check instead of food stamps, thus alcohol and cigarettes are the most purchased product.

My proposal to help rectify this has always been the Government should use the tax dollars collected to fund welfare to hire people whose purpose to find available jobs for people on welfare and set up an interview. There is a catch however, if it is reported you acted like a fool, showed up drunk or whatever to intentionally sabotage the interview or have refused three job offers because god forbid you work at McDonalds, well than your welfare check/food stamps are cut off effective immediately.

Admittedly that proposal was better suited preceding the economic failure of society however it should be considered in the future to elimiate people who abuse a system created with the intent to assistance those who are down and out, not those too lazy to work.

 

[Sewblon]

Here is my idea for the United States. Abolish Federal welfare and make welfare the exclusive responsibility of local governments and private organizations because the United States constitution does not give the federal government the power to supply or compel the supply of welfare.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Farewell welfare; that's almost a palindrome. Seems like a fairly good idea.

 

[bjj hero]

however if i got you somewhere because of something you had done wrong and tell you you're worthless everyday, wouldn't you surely like to rise above that and better yourself to prove them wrong?
i think that once the conservatives get in as they will in the next election, a lot will change, i think handouts will be reduced to minimal.

It's easy to say that you would try to rise above it, however it isn't quite that straight-forward. For a start, simply getting a job can be a severe challenge. There was a job recently in Leicestershire for a police call operator. 600 people applied [http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/85086]. Whatever jobs are out there, they are gone quickly, and the competition for them is ferocious. With this credit crunch knocking out companies left right and centre, those few employers still expanding are spoiled for choice when it comes to applicants. Who would you employ? A guy who got layed off just before Christmas? Or a guy who had been out of work for 3 years? With this in mind, how easy is it for someone long term unemployed to actually get back into work?

There is competition for jobs due to the current climate but up to last year weve experienced a period of growth unlike any before and there were still people long term unemployed. Im saying the system isnt working.

Im not arguing about cost, we probably lose more through tax evasion than through benefit fraud. I also understand how debilitating mental health issues can be, but you can be signed off long term sick, Im talking about healthy people who havent worked and feel its not for them. All of the measures I mentioned were aimed to get these people back to work. I dont want to abolish benefits, just the culture where its normal. Where jobs arent applied for and people arent studying new skills (in the UK the state will pay for college part time if youre unnemployed)

Back on subject, its from this group that the vast majority of problem truanters come from and regular truants
are far more likely to be involved in crime and anti-social behaviour. Im all for removing them from their enviroment if the parents wont handle their responsability.

Heres my favourite benefit cheat BTW: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1835182.ece

 

[GreenDevilJF]

I think they should just allow people to decide whether or not there money goes towards the welfare cause or not, along with some other issues.

It's their money, noone else is entitiled to it but them.

 

[tomdavi]

Why is it that I always feel so left wing when reading these comments, in most matters I'm really not. Perhaps that is just because it is a polarising issue. Most of the time I would class myslf as a liberal (not what americans class as a liberal, but liberal as in "do what you like, as long as it doesn't impinge on my rights or hurt anybody") but this really evokes some leftist feeling in me. Here's my view, the British welfare system does a pretty decent job. I'm not about to complain about a system that taxes people so that others have enough to eat.

Im my ideal world, those who don't want to/ can't/ anythin else/ work are given enough food, bedding and clothes to stay alive relatively comfortably. This is paid for by those who are making far more than sufficient, if you will. It's no real skin off their nose that they have to buy the porsche instead of the ferrari (an exagerrated example but you get my point) because of it. So what if (taking on strong Republican, American dream style or Conservative voice here) "Joe the builder worked damn hard for his money this year and wants to spend all of it". Guess what, in my opinion, the life of the most lazy bugger in the world is worth just as much as, say, 205 of his money if not more. For me that's an axiom, live your life how you want to, but others should be able to live their lives as well, no matter whom they are. Would you shoot someone for not working? Hmm, no, I think not. But you can kill them just as easily by inaction. Sorry if that sounded abrasive.

This is beginning to drag on a bit, so I'll end with my main summarised point. The majority of people on this forum, have enough money to live relatively comfortably, I will presume, insomuch as we are not dying on the street. That you have a computer or laptop is testemant to that. I will ask you to look at this more personally. Lets have a change of perspective, {In the UK} the harder you work the moe you get taxed, now I don't agree with the rates entirely but think like this- your money, mostly is not keeping idiots in burberry caps and knives- it is keeping decent down on their luck people, and some idiots alive, in decent living conditions. Be proud of yourselves for that, if nothing else.

Damn that sounded preaachy, apologies, I was on a roll there.

 

[Dele]

*snip*. Here's my view, the British welfare system does a pretty decent job. I'm not about to complain about a system that taxes people so that others have enough to eat.

Im my ideal world, those who don't want to/ can't/ anythin else/ work are given enough food, bedding and clothes to stay alive relatively comfortably. This is paid for by those who are making far more than sufficient, if you will. It's no real skin off their nose that they have to buy the porsche instead of the ferrari (an exagerrated example but you get my point) because of it.

"From each according to ability, to each according abilities". I support welfare that makes short term unemployment possibility yet makes long term unemployment uncomfortable. I mean it's no real skin off their nose that they have to eat instant noodles instead of macaroni