Fat Shaming.

[Superbeast]

I feel obligated to direct you to this man, if you haven't heard of him before. https://twitter.com/raycronise He's putting out a book in a few months to discuss the weight loss program he developed that he's been testing on other people, namely Penn of Penn and Teller. He recently went on a three week fast to prove there is no "starvation mode" and the mathematical equation of burning calories holds up even when eating nothing at all (medically supervised, of course). However, that doesn't work quite as well as dieting normally. He's based his diet on Joel Fuhrman's books, which basically says that if one stuffs one's gut with fruits and vegetables in unlimited quantities (with no butter and no oil), it's impossible not to lose weight because those foods can't contain enough calories to maintain obesity. His recipes taste like crap for the most part, though, and the adjustment period is loooong. Better off just eating the ingredients, but fruits and veggies can be really tasty, especially after fasting for a little while.

I must say I am extremely hesitant to trust him - he's selling product, after all. There's hundreds of similar "we tested it and it worked" books/diets on the market.

Having studied degree-level Biochemistry and beginning to work with medical professionals regarding my weight, the idea that there is no starvation mode is preposterous. There are a great deal of things documented to have an effect on metabolic rates, from chillies to exercising before breakfast to medication. The biggest concern when it comes to starvation-style diets normally relates to the levels of insulin in the bloodstream (both high and low) that can have really nasty effects, as well as alterations to things like gluconeogenesis which, if prolonged, can cause liver damage. Incidentally, insulin spikes are why high-fruit diets are really bad for losing weight and for your health in general. There are several essential amino acids present in meat and dairy, so cutting them out (which is what your later conversation implies) is rather counter-productive to trying to improve ones health.

I will try to read the article you linked in later posts at some point, but right now I am very sceptical.

 

[Bat Vader]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question. Would you not say that a person continually making choices that harm himself and place a burden on others is acting in a shameful way? Are you saying it's bad to confront someone with that reality? Sorry there are certain wasteful, belligerent, hateful and ridiculous behaviors that are shameful and do not need to be coddled with a veneer of societal acceptance.

To me there's a good way to confront someone and a bad way to confront someone. Someone being an ass right out of the gate instead of taking a more diplomatic approach just seems like it would cause more problems than it would solve. I'm not saying to coddle someone but there isn't a need for people to be dicks about it either. An ex-friend of mine tried shaming me and was a dick about it and he ended up picking his ass off the ground because of it.

 

[Bat Vader]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Most studies have shown that "fat shaming" doesn't work, and can even have the complete opposite effect.

Of course, what exactly constitutes 'shaming' is up for interpretation. Few will probably disagree that these guys are shaming fat people, but I've heard claims that when Doctors tell people they need to lose weight for their health, they are engaging in 'fat shaming', that the phrase "beach body ready' is 'fat shaming', and that even telling your significant other that you find their weight gain unattractive constitutes fat shaming. Whether any of those could have a weight loss end result, I don't know.

I don't find any of that fat shaming though. If telling someone who is bigger they are unattractive is considered fat shaming I suppose when I tell a woman she is unattractive because she is too skinny that it is skinny shaming. A doctor telling someone to lose weight for their health isn't doing it to be a dick. They're doing it so the person doesn't die.

Personally I believe people should be able to live how they want. If someone wants to gorge themselves and weigh 1,000 pounds they have that right. If someone wants to be a skeleton and puke their guts out after a meal they have that right. I won't shame them or try to stop them but I won't have any sympathy if they end up dying because of it.

 

[Politrukk]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question.

Is being a virgin shameful? Bad in some way? If not then why does "virgin shaming" exist?

In a society that views reproduction as one of their key pillars yes.

Take Russia for example (newsflash : this is also where the anti-gay propoganda sentiment comes from).

Russian Society under Putin (believe it or not) is a society that sticks to family values, Russia wishes for happy big families (sort of that American white picket fence ideal of several years past).

When you are a virgin too long you do not partake in that society because you aren't reproducing.
When you are gay you do not partake in that society because you're either not reproducing or very slowly/slower than others.

Obviously this isn't the dominant view everywhere but I just want to explain how a society can see "virgin shaming" as legitimate.


On that note, because Westerners tend to think of Russia as the evil behemoth led by the real life Victor Von Doom (even Victor Von Doom cares about Latveria, go figure that analogy out yourself).

I can wholeheartedly assure you that virgin shaming in this sense has existed for centuries if not millenia, heck Victorian England's upper class society was rife with it.

Did you ever think "old spinster" was a nice cosy term?
Because it's not it is derogatory.


Fat shaming is simple : you are fat, thus unhealthy, people would like you to do something about it for your own sake and in America sometimes for the public good (because there are people so fat they literally take up extra seats/room).
Thus people call you out on this.

 

[2xDouble]

Counterproductive garbage. Obesity, in many cases, is just as much psychological as biological and taking this aggressive stance is making it worse. Good job, jerks.

 

[DoPo]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question.

Is being a virgin shameful? Bad in some way? If not then why does "virgin shaming" exist?

Did I in anyway endorse virgin shaming?

Not directly, but you did suggest that "shaming" applies if you're doing something shameful and that it's supposed to be addressed. This was a broad blanked statement I thought was wrong, hence I wanted to see if you actually believed that.

But then you started making stuff up and I can't really follow your logic. If you want to actually come back to me with something sensible, feel free.

 

[K12]

This is really pathetic and hateful. I'm willing to bet this is the result of a group of less than 5 people (who apparently don't know what Ltd means and just stuck it on in a vague attempt to seem official)

Its rude, but is it any ruder than to expect everyone else to pay for the medical costs from her lifestyle

Yes it is.

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question. Would you not say that a person continually making choices that harm himself and place a burden on others is acting in a shameful way? Are you saying it's bad to confront someone with that reality? Sorry there are certain wasteful, belligerent, hateful and ridiculous behaviors that are shameful and do not need to be coddled with a veneer of societal acceptance.

Saying "well they deserve it" in no way addresses the question. We live in a world were people are free to make bad life decisions, the real question is what effective strategies are there for influencing people's behaviour to make good life choices.

Are bullying and shaming an effective strategy to help people gain the motivation to lose weight? Most of the studies into the issue seem to show that the answer is no for most people.

Is "societal acceptance" (i.e. freedom from judgement and social discrimination) and a general effort to build self-esteem in overweight people have a reliable positive effect on people's ability to lose weight? I haven't seen many studies on this but the ones I have seem have seen positive results on this.

It may seem counter-intuitive but that's what science is for. It's like needle-sharing programmes and abstinence only sex education. Neither of those things have the effects that you may expect intuitively.

Plus, it's worth mentioning that being overweight can sometimes result from health issues which diet and exercise won't treat (or could even exacerbate) so if you're going for a "fat shaming" approach you will inevitably end up harassing sick people.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Ah fat shaming.

The one thing with so many variables that causes people to be pissed off at each other for completely unconnected reasons.

Firstly let's analyse the "fat" part of "fat shaming".

What do people connect with "fat"? Is it being "slightly overweight" (weighing 110kg, instead of 95kg), or is it being massively obese (multiple hundreds of kg. Yes, kg, not lbs)?

And while some people are genetically more likely to build up fat-stores, that doesn't explain some people who apparently balloon to a weight of 250kg (what explains that, is breathtaking lack of self-control).

Personally I tend to think "250kg" when I hear fat, and not "110kg". For me to think 110kg you'd have to say overweight.

Alright now that, that is sorted let's go on to the "shaming" part.

What is "shaming". Is it "confronting people" (however diplomatic this confrontation is), or is it being one of these massive prats who gave out these cards?

Personally I tend to think the latter.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question. Would you not say that a person continually making choices that harm himself and place a burden on others is acting in a shameful way? Are you saying it's bad to confront someone with that reality? Sorry there are certain wasteful, belligerent, hateful and ridiculous behaviors that are shameful and do not need to be coddled with a veneer of societal acceptance.

Oh please don't go trying to pretend you have good intentions. If you don't care how effective your help is then you aren't doing it to be helpful. It's some kind of buzzard pseduo-moral stance where you want to punish people.

 

[Zen Bard]

This seems terribly Un-British. Usually the English are much more polite and clever in their rudeness.

I would have expected something on the card more like:

"Begging your pardon, Old Bean, but did you feel the train car you're in sink about three inches? There's an ever so strong possibility that it was due to the load it was carrying. And, I say, but your enormous girth could be the very thing contributing to that load. Perhaps if you ate, say, just one bag of Fish 'n' Chips for lunch instead of three..."

Yeah, it's cowardly and rude. But you gotta laugh...

 

[The Material Sheep]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question. Would you not say that a person continually making choices that harm himself and place a burden on others is acting in a shameful way? Are you saying it's bad to confront someone with that reality? Sorry there are certain wasteful, belligerent, hateful and ridiculous behaviors that are shameful and do not need to be coddled with a veneer of societal acceptance.

To me there's a good way to confront someone and a bad way to confront someone. Someone being an ass right out of the gate instead of taking a more diplomatic approach just seems like it would cause more problems than it would solve. I'm not saying to coddle someone but there isn't a need for people to be dicks about it either. An ex-friend of mine tried shaming me and was a dick about it and he ended up picking his ass off the ground because of it.

KK so its not a matter of whether or not you should confront someone when they are in your opinion displaying a shameful behavior, but a matter of how tactful you are about it. As shaming just seems to be in common parlance making someone aware of shameful behavior or that their behavior is in fact shameful. Its the difference between leaving a card on a train and being total dick to someone, and respectfully sitting down with someone and voicing your concerns. In both situations your addressing what you see as a wrong or problematic behavior with a person, just one is more respectful of the fact there is a human behind it all. Fair enough, so long as we're in agreement that if you think a behavior is shameful and that it should be addressed is okay in some circumstances.

Also to address something a lot of other people are having in response to me... shaming and bullying are not the same thing. One can use shame in order to bully, but I never in anyway insinuated that shaming is a universal good, or without consequences. I'm not making the argument it is in all ways good, just that we all use it to some degree in order to try and influence others. To what degree we use this tactic is entirely what determines its moral or ethical limits, not that it in general has no value to society what so ever.

Also funnily enough people in this thread in favor of anti fat shaming have been using shaming language and attitudes in regards to the behavior of others that they see as distasteful. So... like it proves the point that we all agree its useful just a matter of what its targeted at and how its worded. Though to me it seems for most people less about how its worded and more how its targeted. Not my sentiment, but just what I've seen at least in this thread alone.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question. Would you not say that a person continually making choices that harm himself and place a burden on others is acting in a shameful way? Are you saying it's bad to confront someone with that reality? Sorry there are certain wasteful, belligerent, hateful and ridiculous behaviors that are shameful and do not need to be coddled with a veneer of societal acceptance.

Oh please don't go trying to pretend you have good intentions. If you don't care how effective your help is then you aren't doing it to be helpful. It's some kind of buzzard pseudo-moral stance where you want to punish people.

I don't pretend I have good intentions. I don't want to punish anyone. I don't personally enjoy shaming people. It doesn't really work on me since my mother often used shaming as a method to try and improve my behavior, and shaming just has diminishing returns in reality. However I'm not arguing the morality or that shaming is the most efficient method of dealing with what is viewed as bad behavior. Just that... just about everyone uses it, and it has positive results for society a lot of the time. All the time? Of course not. Funnily enough you are attempting to shame me right now, by arguing that the only reason I believe this is because I'm a pseudo moralist who just gets off on punishing people. You are trying to bring me lower by making it clear to me that my attitude is to be disapproved of and that my true intentions are base and selfish. Maybe you are spot on in that assessment but regardless you seem to be in favor of shaming tactics but your only quibble is over the target of it.

 

[DoPo]

You are trying to bring me lower by making it clear to me that my attitude is to be disapproved of and that my true intentions are base and selfish.

xD Sounds like basically what you did to me when I posted a mere observation.

(this is also an observation)

 

[zelda2fanboy]

I must say I am extremely hesitant to trust him - he's selling product, after all. There's hundreds of similar "we tested it and it worked" books/diets on the market.

Having studied degree-level Biochemistry and beginning to work with medical professionals regarding my weight, the idea that there is no starvation mode is preposterous. There are a great deal of things documented to have an effect on metabolic rates, from chillies to exercising before breakfast to medication. The biggest concern when it comes to starvation-style diets normally relates to the levels of insulin in the bloodstream (both high and low) that can have really nasty effects, as well as alterations to things like gluconeogenesis which, if prolonged, can cause liver damage. Incidentally, insulin spikes are why high-fruit diets are really bad for losing weight and for your health in general. There are several essential amino acids present in meat and dairy, so cutting them out (which is what your later conversation implies) is rather counter-productive to trying to improve ones health.

I will try to read the article you linked in later posts at some point, but right now I am very sceptical.

Yeah, the skepticism is very warranted. The expensive product line of Joel Fuhrman's website is fairly nauseating in its shamelessness. Ray Cronise might be proven to be a total whack job, but he seems especially interested in getting his work peer reviewed, so it's very much a wait and see scenario. The basic premise is that people don't need as much food as society says they do. I'd recommend checking out the Fuhrman books from the library as they "seem" legitimate, but I barely know anything about nutrition or biochemistry to be able to spot the BS. But, with all the conflicting information on the matter, I have no idea why people feel the need to hand these cards out or make overweight people feel bad about themselves. It accomplishes nothing.

 

[The Material Sheep]

You are trying to bring me lower by making it clear to me that my attitude is to be disapproved of and that my true intentions are base and selfish.

xD Sounds like basically what you did to me when I posted a mere observation.

(this is also an observation)

Well you were projecting on to me a view I didn't hold. You were putting words in my mouth. I also don't know how you got from my response to you that I believe your views are selfish or base. Misguided maybe, or we're working from a different definition but I wouldn't say selfish or base.

Or let me be clear. You seemed to be implying that I was all arguing in favor for specific forms of shaming, which I wasn't. I was arguing that we all use it in some ways and it have a positive outcome.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question. Would you not say that a person continually making choices that harm himself and place a burden on others is acting in a shameful way? Are you saying it's bad to confront someone with that reality? Sorry there are certain wasteful, belligerent, hateful and ridiculous behaviors that are shameful and do not need to be coddled with a veneer of societal acceptance.

Oh please don't go trying to pretend you have good intentions. If you don't care how effective your help is then you aren't doing it to be helpful. It's some kind of buzzard pseudo-moral stance where you want to punish people.

I don't pretend I have good intentions. I don't want to punish anyone. I don't personally enjoy shaming people. It doesn't really work on me since my mother often used shaming as a method to try and improve my behavior, and shaming just has diminishing returns in reality. However I'm not arguing the morality or that shaming is the most efficient method of dealing with what is viewed as bad behavior. Just that... just about everyone uses it, and it has positive results for society a lot of the time. All the time? Of course not. Funnily enough you are attempting to shame me right now, by arguing that the only reason I believe this is because I'm a pseudo moralist who just gets off on punishing people. You are trying to bring me lower by making it clear to me that my attitude is to be disapproved of and that my true intentions are base and selfish. Maybe you are spot on in that assessment but regardless you seem to be in favor of shaming tactics but your only quibble is over the target of it.

You pretend to be worried about a problem. You then don't care if this doesn't help fix it.

Sure you want to punish people. There's two reasons you could have for wanting something shamed. To correct or to punish.

The point is it does not seem to in this case so to persist shows the true motive.

Also is there some apparatus behind me that said shaming is bad? Because I didn't. I also never suggested you were a problem to correct.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question. Would you not say that a person continually making choices that harm himself and place a burden on others is acting in a shameful way? Are you saying it's bad to confront someone with that reality? Sorry there are certain wasteful, belligerent, hateful and ridiculous behaviors that are shameful and do not need to be coddled with a veneer of societal acceptance.

Oh please don't go trying to pretend you have good intentions. If you don't care how effective your help is then you aren't doing it to be helpful. It's some kind of buzzard pseudo-moral stance where you want to punish people.

I don't pretend I have good intentions. I don't want to punish anyone. I don't personally enjoy shaming people. It doesn't really work on me since my mother often used shaming as a method to try and improve my behavior, and shaming just has diminishing returns in reality. However I'm not arguing the morality or that shaming is the most efficient method of dealing with what is viewed as bad behavior. Just that... just about everyone uses it, and it has positive results for society a lot of the time. All the time? Of course not. Funnily enough you are attempting to shame me right now, by arguing that the only reason I believe this is because I'm a pseudo moralist who just gets off on punishing people. You are trying to bring me lower by making it clear to me that my attitude is to be disapproved of and that my true intentions are base and selfish. Maybe you are spot on in that assessment but regardless you seem to be in favor of shaming tactics but your only quibble is over the target of it.

You pretend to be worried about a problem. You then don't care if this doesn't help fix it.

Sure you want to punish people. There's two reasons you could have for wanting something shamed. To correct or to punish.

The point is it does not seem to in this case so to persist shows the true motive.

Also is there some apparatus behind me that said shaming is bad? Because I didn't. I also never suggested you were a problem to correct.

You were responding to my response to a post asking if shaming has ever been good. You also seem to be operating under an odd definition of shaming. The dictionary definition of shame being a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior. You are trying to impose on me a feeling of conducting wrong or foolish behavior by stating that I'm some kind of pseudo moralist who wants to punish people. I mean, I'd consider that to be pretty shameful if that's what I actually was.

You are tilting at windmills here. While my personal feelings on this matter are spelled out much earlier. My last chain of responses was in speaking to the idea that shaming has no value, and me contradicting it. Just because something is not the absolute most efficient method of reducing a behavior does not mean it does not have value. I recognize however that its something most humans in our culture due either consciously or unconsciously so like it or not its probably not something that is going to change.

Perhaps also to clarify my personal opinion so its completely off the table when further discussing the roll of shame and shaming in modern western culture, the people who left the cards were spiteful dick heads just looking to take out frustration on other people, but this does in anyway justify fat acceptance as a concept. If you are fat and can accept the consequences of being fat, than there is nothing wrong with that. Owning your decisions and your lifestyle is the most mature way of taking all this and if you do... fat shaming really shouldn't work anyway as shaming only works if you believe there is some truth to whats being said. Its the health at any size and BMI is oppression people that drive me up the wall because its a concerted effort of denial to preserve an idea that regardless of size there are no consequences for it. However... this is not the point of disucssion I really want to continue it's just a clarification of my personal thoughts main topic of this thread, which is the people leaving mean cards on the subway story.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question. Would you not say that a person continually making choices that harm himself and place a burden on others is acting in a shameful way? Are you saying it's bad to confront someone with that reality? Sorry there are certain wasteful, belligerent, hateful and ridiculous behaviors that are shameful and do not need to be coddled with a veneer of societal acceptance.

Oh please don't go trying to pretend you have good intentions. If you don't care how effective your help is then you aren't doing it to be helpful. It's some kind of buzzard pseudo-moral stance where you want to punish people.

I don't pretend I have good intentions. I don't want to punish anyone. I don't personally enjoy shaming people. It doesn't really work on me since my mother often used shaming as a method to try and improve my behavior, and shaming just has diminishing returns in reality. However I'm not arguing the morality or that shaming is the most efficient method of dealing with what is viewed as bad behavior. Just that... just about everyone uses it, and it has positive results for society a lot of the time. All the time? Of course not. Funnily enough you are attempting to shame me right now, by arguing that the only reason I believe this is because I'm a pseudo moralist who just gets off on punishing people. You are trying to bring me lower by making it clear to me that my attitude is to be disapproved of and that my true intentions are base and selfish. Maybe you are spot on in that assessment but regardless you seem to be in favor of shaming tactics but your only quibble is over the target of it.

You pretend to be worried about a problem. You then don't care if this doesn't help fix it.

Sure you want to punish people. There's two reasons you could have for wanting something shamed. To correct or to punish.

The point is it does not seem to in this case so to persist shows the true motive.

Also is there some apparatus behind me that said shaming is bad? Because I didn't. I also never suggested you were a problem to correct.

You were responding to my response to a post asking if shaming has ever been good.

I don't see any referee telling me I cannot also refer to your other post.

You also seem to be operating under an odd definition of shaming. The dictionary definition of shame being a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior. You are trying to impose on me a feeling of conducting wrong or foolish behavior by stating that I'm some kind of pseudo moralist who wants to punish people. I mean, I'd consider that to be pretty shameful if that's what I actually was.

Oh so you're just utterly missing the point that I never said shaming was wrong and are now imagining that I said I didn't tincidentally try to shame you by pointing out what you do?

Did imaginary SR say that shaming was wrong? It seems to be what you're talking about for some reason. Because I never said it was. I'm saying you pretend you're hhandling a problem with it. If anything I'd be ashamed about making so much up about what I said btw. It's a bit amazing to miss my point so hard. It's about the fake pretense you put up about fat acceptance being a problem that needs to be dealt with. It is but that has nothing to do with your motives as we can see.

You are tilting at windmills here. While my personal feelings on this matter are spelled out much earlier. My last chain of responses was in speaking to the idea that shaming has no value, and me contradicting it. Just because something is not the absolute most efficient method of reducing a behavior does not mean it does not have value. I recognize however that its something most humans in our culture due either consciously or unconsciously so like it or not its probably not something that is going to change.

Did imaginary Bat Vader, presumably from the same universe as imaginary SR, say shaming is terrible? Because I saw a question of whether it even works for this.

I realize you have some bizarre attachment to shaming but please do realize you have nothing to back you up except your desire to see others shamed.

Perhaps also to clarify my personal opinion so its completely off the table when further discussing the roll of shame and shaming in modern western culture, the people who left the cards were spiteful dick heads just looking to take out frustration on other people, but this does in anyway justify fat acceptance as a concept. If you are fat and can accept the consequences of being fat, than there is nothing wrong with that. Owning your decisions and your lifestyle is the most mature way of taking all this and if you do... fat shaming really shouldn't work anyway as shaming only works if you believe there is some truth to whats being said. Its the health at any size and BMI is oppression people that drive me up the wall because its a concerted effort of denial to preserve an idea that regardless of size there are no consequences for it. However... this is not the point of disucssion I really want to continue it's just a clarification of my personal thoughts main topic of this thread, which is the people leaving mean cards on the subway story.

Your theories on psychology are rather... well they have no basis in reality. People don't need to believe something is shameful to be ashamed due to the reactions people have. I realize some people like to divine truth out of nowhere but that's not how it works.

Like if you back off the insults and mischaracterizations we could maybe have a conversation here, but as it is I'm not particularly interested in continuing to talk to you. Thanks for the time.