One thing I love is the vampire take on Judeo-Christian that is the many different factions of the Covenant, Lancea et Sanctum (nWoD 1E). The Testament of Longinus is some of the best literature in all tabletop rpgs.
White Wolf/Onyx Publishing actually made a complete transliterated Testsment that has the notes and correspondence of a mortal theologian commenting on it to another researcher. Giving it that dual mortal/vampire mystical commentary in between the spaces.
The mythos in the book is *wonderful*.... hints at numerous other concepts in the World of Darkness... and it is a wondrous creation of an entirely new branch of Abrahamic religious faith. Not really Christian (though the piercing of Christ does act as Longinus' descent as a Dark Wolf of God...), it focusses on Longinus as a 'Dark Saviour' who teaches the Sanctified (faithful) how to be s monster with purpose. It offers a fantastic idea of what it means to be a monster and how God's plan does not end for you.
It lifts up Longinus as the principle prophet of the Damned. Damned by God in order to preserve purposeful monstrosity.
It throws the classical idea of 'salvation' in the garbage... rather teaches that to be damned means to provide mortals with a test of their faith. Rejoice, for you are damned!
It's *fantastic* roleplaying material in any 1E or 2E game. Probably my favourite take on religion in a roleplaying game. Clever storytelling, clever mythos building, clever take on inhuman and monstrous spirituality.
Well, as far as Elder Scrolls are concerned... my characters tend to be partial to Diabella.
But as far as a favorite fictional faith. In books and tv and movies I tend to identify more with characters that either don't mention a particular faith, or identify as atheist. And in video games I always side with the anti-religion faction where possible or against the dominant religion as my "good guy" playthru. And only side with a dominant religion during "evil" runs through a game.
So basically, my favorite would be any story that has no mention of religion at all. As if the concept simply didn't exist in that world.
Well, The Tribunal's creation is what made Azura turn the Chimer into the Dunmer, and that is also when the Tribunal began supplanting the religion of the now Dunmer people. So part of it is trying to convert from Daedra worship without upsetting them.
Also the lore is complex and confusing cause...its fantasy lore. Part of the fun s the mystery in what is true, what is false, and what is merely allegorical.
This is the problem with fantasy religion - divine retribution. I'd much rather use a bottom-up than top-down perspective. I've found a very fitting analogy within early Swedish history: The banishment of king Inge the Elder and the rise of Blot-Sven. King Inge was a zealous christian and refused to perform the traditional royal blot at Uppsala. This angered the swedes, who deposed king Inge and instead elected Blot-Sven, a much more pragmatic, christian, ruler.
Perhaps the Tribunal were equally pragmatic and just claimed they carried the aspects of the three good daedra, thus placating the traditionalist dark elves.
Well, The Tribunal's creation is what made Azura turn the Chimer into the Dunmer, and that is also when the Tribunal began supplanting the religion of the now Dunmer people. So part of it is trying to convert from Daedra worship without upsetting them.
Also the lore is complex and confusing cause...its fantasy lore. Part of the fun s the mystery in what is true, what is false, and what is merely allegorical.
This is the problem with fantasy religion - divine retribution. I'd much rather use a bottom-up than top-down perspective. I've found a very fitting analogy within early Swedish history: The banishment of king Inge the Elder and the rise of Blot-Sven. King Inge was a zealous christian and refused to perform the traditional royal blot at Uppsala. This angered the swedes, who deposed king Inge and instead elected Blot-Sven, a much more pragmatic, christian, ruler.
Perhaps the Tribunal were equally pragmatic and just claimed they carried the aspects of the three good daedra, thus placating the traditionalist dark elves.
Well they didn't just say "Worship us or die", they already had massive followings, were war heroes who even pre-divine were very powerful, and after getting divinity, went around and did Godlike things, particularly Vivec, since the various pilgrimages you take in service of the Tribunal in Morrowind are representative of his actions. Its a lot easier to worship a God who actually helped you in person.
Well they didn't just say "Worship us or die", they already had massive followings, were war heroes who even pre-divine were very powerful, and after getting divinity, went around and did Godlike things, particularly Vivec, since the various pilgrimages you take in service of the Tribunal in Morrowind are representative of his actions. Its a lot easier to worship a God who actually helped you in person.
But they weren't universally revered, remember that this is the first time we see a clear distinction between House-Dunmer and Ashlander. The rumors that they betrayed Nerevar also must have stung very deeply. And what if the deeds of Vivec was only his own repentance for his crimes, just like the labours of Hercules?
The power of Morrowind still lay in the clans, and the Tribunal only controlled Indoril. I personally think that it is at this point that they struck a deal with Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah. It isn't a coincidence that Morrowind is the only province where the Morag Tong, the servants of Mephala, are operating in an official capacity. House Indoril and the Morag Tong would have long since warred each other until only one remained otherwise.
They tick all the religious nut boxes. They're super self-righteous and are always trying to out-holy each other, they seek the oblivion of mankind, they have their own scripture
(http://ttlg.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=13366)
which they quote constantly, and they have an open disdain for anyone who is not one of them. And what is it they worship? Science and industry.
You've got to love a religion that has their own scripture-quoting sentry bots.
I love this one:
I dreamt that the Builder came unto me. We walked
together amid the empty buildings. No tree barred
our path, no creatures scurried forth. No foot fell
there, save ours. So pleased was He with all I had
done that he turned my flesh to iron with a wave of
His mighty hand. I wept with joy, tears as slick
as mercury, and thanked him for his gifts.
Great is the power of the Master Builder.
They tick all the religious nut boxes. They're super self-righteous and are always trying to out-holy each other, they seek the oblivion of mankind, they have their own scripture
(http://ttlg.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=13366)
which they quote constantly, and they have an open disdain for anyone who is not one of them. And what is it they worship? Science and industry.
You've got to love a religion that has their own scripture-quoting sentry bots.
I love this one:
I dreamt that the Builder came unto me. We walked
together amid the empty buildings. No tree barred
our path, no creatures scurried forth. No foot fell
there, save ours. So pleased was He with all I had
done that he turned my flesh to iron with a wave of
His mighty hand. I wept with joy, tears as slick
as mercury, and thanked him for his gifts.
Great is the power of the Master Builder.
I actually disliked the Mechanist sect of the Hammerites. But then I didn't like much of anything about Thief 2's plot and mechanics. I found them more annoying than anything, while I did enjoy the Hammerites greatly. They had their own religious book too, and I really enjoyed finding and reading those Builder stories from the Hammerite books.
Well they didn't just say "Worship us or die", they already had massive followings, were war heroes who even pre-divine were very powerful, and after getting divinity, went around and did Godlike things, particularly Vivec, since the various pilgrimages you take in service of the Tribunal in Morrowind are representative of his actions. Its a lot easier to worship a God who actually helped you in person.
But they weren't universally revered, remember that this is the first time we see a clear distinction between House-Dunmer and Ashlander. The rumors that they betrayed Nerevar also must have stung very deeply. And what if the deeds of Vivec was only his own repentance for his crimes, just like the labours of Hercules?
The power of Morrowind still lay in the clans, and the Tribunal only controlled Indoril. I personally think that it is at this point that they struck a deal with Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah. It isn't a coincidence that Morrowind is the only province where the Morag Tong, the servants of Mephala, are operating in an official capacity. House Indoril and the Morag Tong would have long since warred each other until only one remained otherwise.
Well, I'm sure Vivec did travel and help people to alleviate his guilt, but I don't think their betrayal was a quickly spread idea. Also why would they only have control of House Indoril? All the great Houses united against the Dwemer.
Also pretty sure they didn't strike a deal with the Daedra, Azura certainly hated the Tribunal. I think perhaps cause worshipping the 3 of them didn't go completely away, and perhaps the 3 just like Dunmer enough, likely due to them not being against them to the level most other races do. I think The Tribunal just blurred the lines between worshipping them and the Daedra. Kind of like "I cant believe its not Azura" brand Alamalexia.
They tick all the religious nut boxes. They're super self-righteous and are always trying to out-holy each other, they seek the oblivion of mankind, they have their own scripture
(http://ttlg.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=13366)
which they quote constantly, and they have an open disdain for anyone who is not one of them. And what is it they worship? Science and industry.
You've got to love a religion that has their own scripture-quoting sentry bots.
I love this one:
I dreamt that the Builder came unto me. We walked
together amid the empty buildings. No tree barred
our path, no creatures scurried forth. No foot fell
there, save ours. So pleased was He with all I had
done that he turned my flesh to iron with a wave of
His mighty hand. I wept with joy, tears as slick
as mercury, and thanked him for his gifts.
Great is the power of the Master Builder.
I actually disliked the Mechanist sect of the Hammerites. But then I didn't like much of anything about Thief 2's plot and mechanics. I found them more annoying than anything, while I did enjoy the Hammerites greatly. They had their own religious book too, and I really enjoyed finding and reading those Builder stories from the Hammerite books.
A fairly simmilar religion is the Church of the Broken God from the SCP universe.
Basically, they are a monotheistic religion that believe in a mechanical deity that created the universe. After challanging the Flesh that hates, he was broken in to fragments. The followers believe if they rebuild him, they themselves will be granted godhood.
Where it gets interesting is the history of the church.
Starting out in Mesopotenia, the church was responsible for many advancements in early hydrolics and primitive prostetics. Kings valued their contributions in the fields of metalurgy and nations went to war for the knowledge of their deens. However, during the rise of christianity in the Roman Empire began to dwindle the prospering cult. By the time of the Salem Witch trials, they have been condemned as heretics. The deens took their life and the sacret knowledge with them.
Between the Salem witch trials and the Industrial Revolution the religion was in a dormant state with about 300 followers worldwide.
A major change began during the late 18'th century. Major industrialists began to rediscover ancient texts and acolites and became hypnotised with its prospects. Taking elements from Christianity and the old texts, they found the Cogwork Orthodox Church, which believed that the path to the Builder (they called her Mekhane and believed the lord to be female) lies through the metamorphosis of our bodies. The noble clergy wern't afraid to shed their humanity and replace their flesh with gold, brass and copper.
V19.113.A-01: The Sphere of Smoke and Heat
1. In the Forbidden Historiesa is written the tale of the Fall to Earth, whence came the MEKHANE to the sphere of the FLESH and made it whole and pure once more.
2. And the Old Kosmotistsb say that as the MEKHANE descended it passed numerous orbs and spheres, and considered each in passing, and judged them as to their wants and suitability, and cast them aside.
3. There were many spheres of ice and cold, where all was still and perfect, and the MEKHANE saw them and knew that they were pristine in their ordered wholeness, and must be left alone. And the MEKHANE passed them by.
4. And there were great spheres of air and wind and movement, of everchanging chaos, where nothing was solid and all was replete with FLESH, but in a primordial form. And the MEKHANE saw them and knew that in time, Order could come to them, but they would remain as they were, locked in chaos, until such time as the Unity of Knowledge could come unto them.c And the MEKHANE passed them by.
The growing militirization of the faith began with a young Spanish engineer named Robert Bumaro. During the spanish civil war, some of the occult research, collected by the german paranormal division might have slipped and fallen in his hands. At first, the ichor that he confronted tore through his flesh. Though with the agony, game bliss and enlightement. Instating himself as the new head of the Builders, he organized a crusade to recover the framents of God.
I have picked up His sword by the seashore,
Who whispered to me soft words.
First it told me about two great dragons,
Then it spoke of man and war.
One was there to enlighten in the Eden, it said,
The other a reckless god.
One taught us to think and feel, it said,
The other bred us from soil.
The dragons once rest in the abyss, it said,
Then came their sons and daughters.
One had made a cage of His bronze skeleton,
The other trapped and suffered.
One wore a crown of thunder and lightning, it said,
The other sat on a throne of bones.
But the crown now in pieces and the throne concealed,
Their descendants on earth live oblivious.
I shall build Him a temple and an altar, I said,
So the dragons shall be remembered.
I shall light the candles and speak of prayers, I said,
And make sacrifice of blood and steel.
The last sect came into being in the late 70's. Split off from the Orthodox church due to their excessive traditionalism, they were captivised by the world of computings, though due to their refused to store their texts on physical media, they cult never took off until the 90's, when through the internet, the religion was finally able to send out its message.
console.log ("1: And So, WAN spoke unto ITS Prophet the truth about the world.");
__
console.log ("2:The truth was delivered through a Signal, transmitted directly into the mind of the Prophet, who wept at its majesty.");
__
console.log ("3: The Prophet spake unto her followers: 'Hear me, Children of the Fragmented One, for I come Bearing the Truth.");
__
console.log ("4:The Signal showed me a world where the Flesh is capable of destroying data, and killing the Network that binds us together.");
__
console.log ("5:The Signal showed me a world where the Great Computation would be destroyed, if we did not act.' ");
__
console.log ("6: But the Prophet's followers did not heed her words. They thought that she had been stricken mad by exposure to her implants.");
__
console.log ("7: The Prophet realized that she was seen as a fool by her followers, so she prayed to WAN for guidance during her nightly cool-down cycle.");
Acquiring large ammounts of finances through their cryptocurrency and internet scams, they cast their net of influence on the web. Valueing transhumanism and embracing virtual enviroments, they won the faith of the modern youth (most of them children of the Orthodox and Builder accolites). Currently, the sect has a strong presence in Boston, Tokyo and Paris.
What was the Religion from Starship Troopers 3? Godism? Lets go with that! 'cause its fucking funny as hell that humanity develops a religion to fight against the God Bug that can brainwash psychics.
Well, I'm sure Vivec did travel and help people to alleviate his guilt, but I don't think their betrayal was a quickly spread idea. Also why would they only have control of House Indoril? All the great Houses united against the Dwemer.
Also pretty sure they didn't strike a deal with the Daedra, Azura certainly hated the Tribunal. I think perhaps cause worshipping the 3 of them didn't go completely away, and perhaps the 3 just like Dunmer enough, likely due to them not being against them to the level most other races do. I think The Tribunal just blurred the lines between worshipping them and the Daedra. Kind of like "I cant believe its not Azura" brand Alamalexia.
Look at Caesar, conqueror of Gaul, elected dictator for life, and moments from proclaiming himself God-king like his neighbouring Egyptian Pharaohs and Persian (Parthian) King of Kings. Did the senators love him? No, his power had come at the expense of them. House Indoril is the clan of not just Nerevar, but Vivec, Alamexia and Sotha-Sil as well. Self interest has always existed, and always will. It's the most powerful motivator there exists, and there is no unifying external threat now.
The real answer is, however, the Pantheon from Discworld where gods are useless capricious dicks who *gets hit by lightning*
Anyway, the Children of Atom had promise before FO4 fucked up their premise. That their mater will under nuclear detonation lead to the creation of universes that will propagate onward. Which is oddly enough grounded in current theories on how the multiverse got the way it did.
Mass Effect had a fun speculation on the nature of religion being the misinterpretation of the civilizations that came before.
Well, I'm sure Vivec did travel and help people to alleviate his guilt, but I don't think their betrayal was a quickly spread idea. Also why would they only have control of House Indoril? All the great Houses united against the Dwemer.
Also pretty sure they didn't strike a deal with the Daedra, Azura certainly hated the Tribunal. I think perhaps cause worshipping the 3 of them didn't go completely away, and perhaps the 3 just like Dunmer enough, likely due to them not being against them to the level most other races do. I think The Tribunal just blurred the lines between worshipping them and the Daedra. Kind of like "I cant believe its not Azura" brand Alamalexia.
Look at Caesar, conqueror of Gaul, elected dictator for life, and moments from proclaiming himself God-king like his neighbouring Egyptian Pharaohs and Persian (Parthian) King of Kings. Did the senators love him? No, his power had come at the expense of them. House Indoril is the clan of not just Nerevar, but Vivec, Alamexia and Sotha-Sil as well. Self interest has always existed, and always will. It's the most powerful motivator there exists, and there is no unifying external threat now.
...I don't know if you're arguing actual in-game lore or what you think should/would realistically happen.
Nothing in-lore has suggested that the Great Houses didn't quickly embrace the Tribunal, or atleast (in Telvanni's likely case) not care. Redoran has been a pretty faithful house, and Hlaalu tends to stay with who profits them. Not that there weren't dissenters, but it suggests they were banished to the wastes with the Ashlanders, or killed off with House Dagoth.
I have, but what I love about the Dark Brotherhood I don't get with the Morag Tong. Plus why would I denigrate myself to worshiping daedra when I can worship the true god sithis? Hail to the void.
Technically, Sithis created Lorkhan, whose power is the source of the three Almsivi's divinity. The Almsivi Vivec is the dual aspect of Mephala. So you see how it is essentially the same force that makes up both Mephala and Sithis. Morrowind lore isn't just weird, it's so contradicting that no one, not even the developers, can follow it.
Sithis created Lorkhan this is true, however to say that Mephala is of the same force as Sithis is fallacious. Sithis is the void Mephala is a daedra. Vivec on the otherhand is a mortal who attained power liken to a god through the heart. Whatever way Vivec and Mephala intertwine they are not the same as the void.
...I don't know if you're arguing actual in-game lore or what you think should/would realistically happen.
Nothing in-lore has suggested that the Great Houses didn't quickly embrace the Tribunal, or atleast (in Telvanni's likely case) not care. Redoran has been a pretty faithful house, and Hlaalu tends to stay with who profits them. Not that there weren't dissenters, but it suggests they were banished to the wastes with the Ashlanders, or killed off with House Dagoth.
No, what I mean is that Morrowind was an oligarchy, where the five houses rule through the council. What I'm trying to say is that the power of the Tribunal wasn't endless. There are things they couldn't really change in the day-to-day affairs of Morrowind, and left the rule to the houses. If we remove religious dogma and focus the politics of Morrowind, The Almsivi doesn't have much influence outside Indoril and must rely on political deals and horse trading, like all rulers. They can't for example decide who will become the next successor in a house. And that is late third era, they must have wielded considerably less power previously when they were less entrenched. I use history as an example of how humans operate in certain situations, and that will never change.
It's been fun arguing with you, but I doubt we will get any further. Have a nice day.
...I don't know if you're arguing actual in-game lore or what you think should/would realistically happen.
Nothing in-lore has suggested that the Great Houses didn't quickly embrace the Tribunal, or atleast (in Telvanni's likely case) not care. Redoran has been a pretty faithful house, and Hlaalu tends to stay with who profits them. Not that there weren't dissenters, but it suggests they were banished to the wastes with the Ashlanders, or killed off with House Dagoth.
No, what I mean is that Morrowind was an oligarchy, where the five houses rule through the council. What I'm trying to say is that the power of the Tribunal wasn't endless. There are things they couldn't really change in the day-to-day affairs of Morrowind, and left the rule to the houses. If we remove religious dogma and focus the politics of Morrowind, The Almsivi doesn't have much influence outside Indoril and must rely on political deals and horse trading, like all rulers. They can't for example decide who will become the next successor in a house. And that is late third era, they must have wielded considerably less power previously when they were less entrenched. I use history as an example of how humans operate in certain situations, and that will never change.
It's been fun arguing with you, but I doubt we will get any further. Have a nice day.
Chalk me up for another adherent to the Imperial Cult. There are all sorts of fan theories out there regarding the Emperor's identity that add extra levels of intrigue to it all. I myself have entertained the notion that the Emperor is the Antichrist, but my favorite interpretation is his depiction in the ongoing "If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device" series/parody:
I dunno, can that be termed a "religion?" I mean, Celestia is capable of amazing feats and her name in invoked in common pony expressions ("sweet Celestia!"), but nopony worships her as a deity in Equestria (at least as far as I know).
Chalk me up for another adherent to the Imperial Cult. There are all sorts of fan theories out there regarding the Emperor's identity that add extra levels of intrigue to it all. I myself have entertained the notion that the Emperor is the Antichrist, but my favorite interpretation is his depiction in the ongoing "If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device" series/parody:
I dunno, can that be termed a "religion?" I mean, Celestia is capable of amazing feats and her name in invoked in common pony expressions ("sweet Celestia!"), but nopony worships her as a deity in Equestria (at least as far as I know).
I suppose shes not really a religion. But at least in the original pitch bible she was pretty much established as a god, and really when you think about it, what kind of god needs to be worshiped if they are real in their universe? Only an ego maniac god, therefore, Celestia is best god.
Well my personal observation is that all discussion of religion basically leads to the "I am right, and you are wrong, because I say so" -arguments. I guess I can add fictional religions to this list now too. Oh mankind, I sometimes wonder if we ever really stopped living in caves?
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