Generic Gamer said:
I didn't say we had no part, I said that none of these leaks were news to us. There's a reason that 'British tabloid' means something as a phrase, we have some of the most effective muckrakers in the world and none of this is a surprise. to reiterate, we have known about this for years. In fact there's a movement in UK politics to look more towards Europe than the US, mostly as a result of the last three terms. We've known that our Government has been covering up for the US for a decade now and it's not going to surprise us just because a slightly different website now agrees.
Really? So, you guys knew all about how Conservative party politicians lined up before the general election to promise that they would run a "pro-American regime" and buy more arms from the US if they came to power in 2010, as the leaked American embassy cables show? But then went ahead and voted for David Cameron anyway, even with 'a movement in UK politics to look more towards Europe than the US'? Lost me there, mate.
Generic Gamer said:
I'd also contend that if people weren't as ass-backwards about war as most people seem to be they could have predicted this kind of death toll. Strikes me that people are just surprised because they haven't been thinking this shit through. Frankly we've got an interesting situation where every extremist with an axe to grind is heading over to Iraq or Afghanistan and marching right into the jaws of our army rather than blowing up buses in London. This seems like a good enough reason to keep fighting to me, even not counting that Saddam was a dictator. Try asking your relatives some stories about World War 2, see what they say about the nature of war. There's nothing surprising about this war.
And what created those extremists in the first place? As far as I'm concerned, the terrorist incidents took place after UK took part in the wars. As for 'every extremist with an axe to grind is heading over to Iraq or Afghanistan'... you did hear about the bombing incident in Sweden a couple of days back, right? How long before some zealot goes past UK's security and causes another incident? As for Saddam being a dictator... the current president installed by the coalition forces, Jalal Talabani, is worse than Saddam. He's rigging elections, under him the country is in an economic mess, his party is turning the country into an Islamic state (as opposed to Saddam's secular approach) and is head of a security force that holds innocent civilians (not just political opponents) without charges and abuses them through beatings, burnings, electrocutions and rape. Not that you'd care. And in World War II, people fought against a legitimate threat. For what is this war being fought? Nuclear weapons? Democracy? Bin Laden? And dragging this mess for a decade even in the worst of economic conditions?
Generic Gamer said:
That helicopter footage showed civilians entering a combat zone without permission or notification, acting suspiciously and being killed. I think if you'd been in the situation you may have behaved the same way since I doubt it's as easy as it looks. But hey, maybe you are an awesomely skilled gunner with the ability to pick out details on a tiny black and white screen, who knows? Maybe you do know which idiots sneaking about with guns are the civilians and which ones only look and act that way.
I specifically implied the second part of the footage, where the people in the van were clearly not carrying weapons and were only trying to help. Also, ground forces were only minutes away, so it was absolutely unnecessary. And how would you define a combat zone? Because the third part showed an Apache firing into a civilian building. With your definition of a combat zone, the Iraqis might as well as have to leave their goddamned country.
As for your earlier talk about the nature of war, Ethan McCord, the soldier seen in the video carrying the injured boy, recalled in an interview on The Marc Steiner Show that on arrival at the scene, "The first thing I did was run up to the van...". After attending the girl's wounds and handing her to a medic, he was ordered to take position on roof but he returned to the van to find the boy moved his hand. "I grabbed him and ran to the Bradley myself". He claims he "got yelled at" for not "pulling security". "The first thing I thought of...was my children at home". He later sought help for psychological trauma, but was then ridiculed by his NCO and told that if he were to go to the mental health officer, "there would be repercussions". So while you sit comfortably in your armchair and jabber away about your view of war based on the AC-130 level in Modern Warfare, people down at the battlefield might hold a different view about the 'reality'.
Generic Gamer said:
You know what really bothers me? It's the fact that people are thinking "The Government withheld information, therefore this leaked data is the truth". This is not an OR gate, it doesn't have to be option A or option B. There is a possibility that the Government blocked release of the documents and that Wikileaks is lying/misinterpreting.
If WikiLeaks was lying, then I think the government would be the first to accuse them of it. That is simple logic. Also the data released is carefully verified by The New York Times and your own trusted 'British tabloid', The Guardian.
Generic Gamer said:
But yeah, don't expect everyone to be shocked. Everyone is entitled to their opinion after all, even if it's different to yours.
I believe my original contention with you was not about being 'shocked', but 'outraged'. Am I shocked? No. Outraged? Yes. Would you stop becoming outraged about rape if it becomes rampant and 'old news'? The fact that you're so callous about hundreds of thousands of deaths is what unsettles me. And not just your view on dead foreigners. Your solution involving the theory of 'every extremist with an axe to grind is heading over to Iraq or Afghanistan and marching right into the jaws of our army' is a bit unsettling. You do understand that this solution, instead of simply apologizing and leaving, is putting your own countrymen in military service in the line of danger? But I guess you wouldn't care, since it doesn't affect you.
