That is a really good point that people rarely bring up. You don't look at largely female dominated work forces and think "why are men being kept out?". Across the world you see different genders taking interest in certain fields of work. Even in countries like sweden where they try so hard to make everyone as equal as possible it feels forced women and men still gravitate to different jobs. I think it is entirely possible that women are "under represented" not because of sexism but just because of a lack of interest. When the same amount of women and men want to work in the game industry but only 10% of women get hired then I will except these claims of sexism.Retrograde said:
Female movie directors, game devs, sexism in the industry - root causes?
- Thread starter Yuuki
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Bingo! While Jim has talked about the matter, I've accumulated links over a decent span of time as I heard about them.Yuuki said:Ah, so you believe that male directors can (and have) created tons of movies with great female leads, but in the gaming industry developers/writers are being restricted from creating female characters. Jim explored that aspect in his Creepy Cull video as we all know and ended up on a pretty indecisive note because of it being a chicken & egg issue of consumers not buying certain games because they're possibly not being marketed/advertised enough, and publishers not spending money marketing/advertising certain games because consumers are not buying them.Rebel_Raven said:
But one thing stands to question, how did the movie industry end up being relatively restriction-free while the gaming industry is stuck in this cycle? Is this, once again, just a matter of waiting and waiting?
You're definitely onto something when you say that males can make great movies with females, because (alarmingly) a ton of "chick flicks" and action-girl movies still have male directors. Granted there aren't very many of those movies that make it big on anywhere the same frequency as movies with male protagonists (for every high-ranking movie you name with a strong female protagonist, I could probably name 5 with a male one)...but I guess they still exist and act as proof of your statements, because movies are still in a vastly better level when it comes to female characters than gaming is right now. I guess it could really be just a matter of time, possibly in the next decade or two.
Curse you Rebel and your...err...rebellious ways
These issues have been going on for a while, honestly. It's only recently we've had a charismatic figure, or two making it widely known.
The chicken and the egg notion between the gaming industry, and the consumers is a valid question that I don't know the answer to short of someone needing to break the cycle. That might have to start on the indusrty side as gamers can't buy what isn't out there.
Movies are easier to make than games, I think. At least as far as what goes to producers. I figure most develop a script, then the producer looks it over for approval. Scripts can have many copies, easier, too, making it easier to guage interest from multiple producers.
I think games need to be more developed so the producer can demo them.
I'm no expert on the matter, mind you.
One advantage the movie industry has over the gaming industry is their stars often make appearances at interviews, on assorted shows, and generally get better publicity. They pop on to a talk show, generally look great, be charismatic, and plug their movie/show/etc.
Movies get great commercial time in general, too. I'm a firm believer that if one want s avideogame to do well, it needs a TV comercial to run for a bit.
Gaming is starting to catch up a little, but until game developers, voice actors, and producers start popping up on prime time TV kinda often as opposed to web shows and general internet stuff, and gaming focused shows, they aren't going to hit the same status as movie stars, so their popularity will be limited.
It might be pretty entertaining if there were publicity stunts where, say, Nathan Drake got interviewed for Uncharted 4 like he were a movie star on a talk show.
Movies, books, and much media outside of gaming definitely does add weight to the belief that a woman isn't necesary to make a respectable woman character, yeah.
Course I focus on games.Time will certainly be key to getting game diversity up, but relying on that will be a mistake, IMO. Other things will be needed. Largely breaking conventional wisdoms in the gaming industry, either by changing the minds of the people in charge, getting them replaced by idealistics, or both. Time won't do a whole lot if the people in charge refuse to get with the times.
Also, voicing our discontent with the status quo, talking about it, even on forums, may help more than some might think. There's no tellling who surfs these forums.
We definitely need people like Jim Sterling, and other loud voices of game criticism, too. Not necessarily for the points they make, but for the simple fact they're popular people, and can draw attention to matters for better or worse. They are conversation starters, and bring publicity to issues, for better or worse. They, basically will become the gaming equivalent of Movie Stars.
Hopefully changes will come faster than 2 decades. They can't rightfully be rushed, but 20 years is a long time.
Rebel isn't in my name just coz it sounds cool.
There's a couple of facets to this that I'd like to put in my two cents for.
Firstly, we need a better word for this phenomenon than 'sexism.' It still exists, but it's much more subtle than it used to be, and in a lot of cases, it's completely involuntary. Instead of people actively having ignorant and offensive views, it's a problem of cultural legacy pushing people almost invisibly in different directions. I mean, this stuff could be as simple as whether you buy your kid dolls and legos; we really have no idea, because we've only just recently started asking the really hard questions. And it affects both sexes adversely! I know I've hated virtually every aspect of what it 'means' to be male and rejected it pretty much wholesale. But calling somebody or something sexist immediately attaches it with a stigma that makes anyone who likes that thing or person extremely defensive. So, we just need a different thing to call this particular facet, or we're never gonna get any further on this issue in the long run.
Secondly, I think what I described above (the invisible legacy thing) is part of the reason why this is true. It might even also be a little bit of disinterest. It doesn't even have to be just one thing! But what I do know is that the byline that men can't write well-rounded female characters is not only untrue... it's too easy of an out. What we should be doing in reality is encouraging women to get into the field to give us different experiences, and men to branch out imaginatively for the same reason. They say you should "write what you know," but that's geared more toward a narrative- not the ability to believably write for a variance of characters.
Firstly, we need a better word for this phenomenon than 'sexism.' It still exists, but it's much more subtle than it used to be, and in a lot of cases, it's completely involuntary. Instead of people actively having ignorant and offensive views, it's a problem of cultural legacy pushing people almost invisibly in different directions. I mean, this stuff could be as simple as whether you buy your kid dolls and legos; we really have no idea, because we've only just recently started asking the really hard questions. And it affects both sexes adversely! I know I've hated virtually every aspect of what it 'means' to be male and rejected it pretty much wholesale. But calling somebody or something sexist immediately attaches it with a stigma that makes anyone who likes that thing or person extremely defensive. So, we just need a different thing to call this particular facet, or we're never gonna get any further on this issue in the long run.
Secondly, I think what I described above (the invisible legacy thing) is part of the reason why this is true. It might even also be a little bit of disinterest. It doesn't even have to be just one thing! But what I do know is that the byline that men can't write well-rounded female characters is not only untrue... it's too easy of an out. What we should be doing in reality is encouraging women to get into the field to give us different experiences, and men to branch out imaginatively for the same reason. They say you should "write what you know," but that's geared more toward a narrative- not the ability to believably write for a variance of characters.
To sort of address the issue about the lack of female game developers, it has been said before, but it may as well be repeated: it's not so much a matter of women being kept out of the industry or overlooked when being hired, but that the total number of women that go into game development is fairly low when compared to men. This can be seen when looking at university numbers: for instance, programs that are considered to be "people" oriented, such as sociology, social work, nursing, or any field where one will go on to do work that involves looking at/studying/taking care of/servicing other people usually have more women than men. Fields that are more geared towards creative ventures, whether that be writing, acting, arts programs, or even media/film studies can have more balanced numbers depending on the exact program (basing this one off of personal experience/observation and from what others have told me). Programs however that are considered more technical, such as the various sciences, engineering, and tech courses usually have more men than women. Since game developers usually come from the last background, a more technical side, it means that the total number of women that would be able enter the industry is always lower than the number of men, simply because women are more likely to go into university/college/work fields that aren't geared towards game development.
As to why this is? Take your pick really. Some believe that it's a symptom of enforced yet unconscious gender roles in which women pursue roles that are considered to "help others" while men pursue roles that are considered to "require technical skill." Some believe that these are natural inclinations, on the assumption that empathy, which is sometimes categorized/stereotyped as a female attribute, can be a driving factor in going for roles that are based around others rather than one's own self. Some believe it's a chicken and the egg scenario, in which genders are more likely to gravitate towards roles/jobs in which they are over-represented, in turn giving the impression that certain roles/jobs are indeed over-representative of a certain gender. Others think it's probably a bit of coincidence, or at least it is a factor that may have just as much to do with that person's personality as it does their gender. I myself don't really know about the subject enough to make a concrete conclusion, but if I had to take a guess I'd probably say it may be the third scenario that's the likeliest.
As for the lack of female directors: that one is both surprising and kind of expected. On the one hand the assumption would be that in an industry that has been around for so long and with such a wide representation of characters/types/personalities in front of the camera, that behind it there should be an equal representation. On the other hand, consider The Oscars for a moment: I know, people don't like them and they are often considered to be set the moment nominees are mentioned, but they do represent the state of mind for the industry if nothing else (at least from a Hollywood perspective): in the total history of The Oscars, only four women have been nominated for Best Director, once in 1976 for Lina Wurtmuller (Seven Beauties), once in 1993 for Jane Campion (The Piano), once in 2003 for Sofia Coppola (Lost in Translation), and the last time was in 2009 for Kathryn Bigelow (The Hurt Locker)...of those four, only Kathryn Bigelow actually won the Oscar for Best Director. Looking at just this, it isn't too surprising that only 2 women were included in a list of the best 250 directors of all time. As to why this is? I honestly don't know. One thing I've heard is that women, if they take behind the camera roles, are more likely to be producers or talent scouts than they are directors, but I'm not sure how true this is. Another I've heard is that the types of films women direct don't appeal to the academy/film critics, but that would be assuming that women and men can only direct in certain ways, which I don't fully buy. Who knows, maybe it's just another representation problem, in which while with music and books I can at least THINK of an equal number of male/female artists, I can't actually think of many movies that I've watched or that have been recently released that had female directors.
As to why this is? Take your pick really. Some believe that it's a symptom of enforced yet unconscious gender roles in which women pursue roles that are considered to "help others" while men pursue roles that are considered to "require technical skill." Some believe that these are natural inclinations, on the assumption that empathy, which is sometimes categorized/stereotyped as a female attribute, can be a driving factor in going for roles that are based around others rather than one's own self. Some believe it's a chicken and the egg scenario, in which genders are more likely to gravitate towards roles/jobs in which they are over-represented, in turn giving the impression that certain roles/jobs are indeed over-representative of a certain gender. Others think it's probably a bit of coincidence, or at least it is a factor that may have just as much to do with that person's personality as it does their gender. I myself don't really know about the subject enough to make a concrete conclusion, but if I had to take a guess I'd probably say it may be the third scenario that's the likeliest.
As for the lack of female directors: that one is both surprising and kind of expected. On the one hand the assumption would be that in an industry that has been around for so long and with such a wide representation of characters/types/personalities in front of the camera, that behind it there should be an equal representation. On the other hand, consider The Oscars for a moment: I know, people don't like them and they are often considered to be set the moment nominees are mentioned, but they do represent the state of mind for the industry if nothing else (at least from a Hollywood perspective): in the total history of The Oscars, only four women have been nominated for Best Director, once in 1976 for Lina Wurtmuller (Seven Beauties), once in 1993 for Jane Campion (The Piano), once in 2003 for Sofia Coppola (Lost in Translation), and the last time was in 2009 for Kathryn Bigelow (The Hurt Locker)...of those four, only Kathryn Bigelow actually won the Oscar for Best Director. Looking at just this, it isn't too surprising that only 2 women were included in a list of the best 250 directors of all time. As to why this is? I honestly don't know. One thing I've heard is that women, if they take behind the camera roles, are more likely to be producers or talent scouts than they are directors, but I'm not sure how true this is. Another I've heard is that the types of films women direct don't appeal to the academy/film critics, but that would be assuming that women and men can only direct in certain ways, which I don't fully buy. Who knows, maybe it's just another representation problem, in which while with music and books I can at least THINK of an equal number of male/female artists, I can't actually think of many movies that I've watched or that have been recently released that had female directors.
And here we go again. A topic with plenty of bold statements, that people talk about as if they are facts, when in reality they are not facts. Like for example this statement "People are very swift to criticize games for lack of variety, a lack of good narrative, a lack of strong females, and of course a lack of appropriate representation of females.".
And from here stems the whole problem. Someone(likely a woman) who probably is seeking some sort of special attention, states something like this and instantly 90% of the male gaming community is ready to throw away years of great games and stories, and female characters, and pretty much ignore how much gaming has matured, just to agree with this feminist stupidity. Yes stupidity. Not even that, the OP is comparing gaming with movies, where for every Meryl Streep there are 10 Lindsay Lohans, who directors male or female are abusing in retarded movies depicting women as trashy, whiny and worthless.
There are plenty of quality female characters in gaming. For anyone who has been playing adventures, roleplaying games etc. Really do I even need to talk about this or has everyone forgotten? Hell you can even argue, that half the time female characters even when they're non playable are much better than the male ones. Examples are plenty especially among newer games such as the Mass Effect series, Bioshock Infinite, Dragon Age, The Last of Us etc. Like literally every single female lead character in those games is amazing and has a cult following and people cosplaying them. My favorite characters in the whole ME trilogy are Liara and Tali. How many movie female leads have that many fans? I bet not that many.
On the other topic of game developers. This is really funny as no one is really stopping women from being project leaders. Most of the current top game directors have started from scratch back when there was no kickstarter and no big bucks to be made. But they had passion and vision, and they were driven to create games. Name one woman who aspired to do so, who had the vision, who had ideas she wanted to bring to life and was willing to gamble her future on it. I'm really curious as I don't know of a single one. There are none. It's that simple. And why should this be a problem? Why is it even deemed unfair? Is it fair, that there are no male non gay make up artists? Maybe we should discuss that, why not? I think it has about the same relevance.
Really all this topic comes down to is how gullible men are and how eager they are to white knight hard. Reality is that there are great writing and storytelling in games, much more visceral than movies in many cases. There are great characters male and female, and people love those characters. The gaming industry is comprised from men and women, and there are plenty of women out there who I'm sure enjoy gaming just as much as the rest of us men, and they don't go on forums to whine about problems that don't exist, or rob people of their money to make female propaganda ala Anita Sarkeesian.
I'm sure I'll be flamed a lot for this, how dare I speak against feminism. I guess I should suck it up though, isn't that what we men are supposed to do? You know like creating this insanely huge industry with sweat and tears, and now that it's got enough money in it, it's ready for women to step in and boss us around. And we're liking it. Classic!
And from here stems the whole problem. Someone(likely a woman) who probably is seeking some sort of special attention, states something like this and instantly 90% of the male gaming community is ready to throw away years of great games and stories, and female characters, and pretty much ignore how much gaming has matured, just to agree with this feminist stupidity. Yes stupidity. Not even that, the OP is comparing gaming with movies, where for every Meryl Streep there are 10 Lindsay Lohans, who directors male or female are abusing in retarded movies depicting women as trashy, whiny and worthless.
There are plenty of quality female characters in gaming. For anyone who has been playing adventures, roleplaying games etc. Really do I even need to talk about this or has everyone forgotten? Hell you can even argue, that half the time female characters even when they're non playable are much better than the male ones. Examples are plenty especially among newer games such as the Mass Effect series, Bioshock Infinite, Dragon Age, The Last of Us etc. Like literally every single female lead character in those games is amazing and has a cult following and people cosplaying them. My favorite characters in the whole ME trilogy are Liara and Tali. How many movie female leads have that many fans? I bet not that many.
On the other topic of game developers. This is really funny as no one is really stopping women from being project leaders. Most of the current top game directors have started from scratch back when there was no kickstarter and no big bucks to be made. But they had passion and vision, and they were driven to create games. Name one woman who aspired to do so, who had the vision, who had ideas she wanted to bring to life and was willing to gamble her future on it. I'm really curious as I don't know of a single one. There are none. It's that simple. And why should this be a problem? Why is it even deemed unfair? Is it fair, that there are no male non gay make up artists? Maybe we should discuss that, why not? I think it has about the same relevance.
Really all this topic comes down to is how gullible men are and how eager they are to white knight hard. Reality is that there are great writing and storytelling in games, much more visceral than movies in many cases. There are great characters male and female, and people love those characters. The gaming industry is comprised from men and women, and there are plenty of women out there who I'm sure enjoy gaming just as much as the rest of us men, and they don't go on forums to whine about problems that don't exist, or rob people of their money to make female propaganda ala Anita Sarkeesian.
I'm sure I'll be flamed a lot for this, how dare I speak against feminism. I guess I should suck it up though, isn't that what we men are supposed to do? You know like creating this insanely huge industry with sweat and tears, and now that it's got enough money in it, it's ready for women to step in and boss us around. And we're liking it. Classic!
As noted by the video, things made by women tend to have more women oriented things, and many of the people who play games are playing THEIR games, some games fit criteria for both genders....and some do not, I know it seems childish and is often portrayed as a lashing out of vicious anger and rage, but that vicious anger and rage doesn't always have to be MEN being SEXIST, it could be, simply, people afraid of change, that there games will have more pathetic pandering to an audience that the game isn't obviously for, we have seen games often widen their audience with stupid shit, and often it ruins them, but that is a different problem, the game industry isn't particularly attractive for ANYONE giving how some of the people who play the games treat people, the industry is full of people after the joys of creating a game over a paycheck, requires a passion for video games beyond a hobby and many other things, now with the fact that most games are appearing to be aimed towards men, why would you enter the industry? In opposite world, women would be shooting out the next triple a title pandering to an audience to minority probably don't want to be a part of, I personally loathe the idea of ever designing a female targeted game, because I don't believe in gender targeted games to such a degree, I admit there is some content that attracts one more than the other, but I would rather make games for PEOPLE, with PEOPLE in them, I use the word PEOPLE as a umbrella term for things that we all share in common, I'm not gonna create a female with a maternal instinct, I'm gonna create PEOPLE with a desire to protect the things that they love and that need them, the "maternal instinct" suggests a bond a man can NEVER know, yet there are bad mothers and bad fathers just as much as there are good ones, the industry doesn't NEED more females, I don't want to force a more female workforce upon it if they aren't interested, just get more intelligent, open minded people on the teams, I am a man and I am capable of deep emotional thought just as much as I can make a sex joke, it is not difficult, you just have to want to.
judging a whole sub-culture based on a the actions of a minority? Sounds a lot like...
"A minority of white people are in the KKK. Why are all you white people so racist?"
GAMING and GAMERS are fine, if argumentitive, but trolls and assholes exist everywhere, in every sub-culture, in every part of life. So no, "sexism" is not a problem in "gaming". Some assholes just go out of their way to be nasty.
"A minority of white people are in the KKK. Why are all you white people so racist?"
GAMING and GAMERS are fine, if argumentitive, but trolls and assholes exist everywhere, in every sub-culture, in every part of life. So no, "sexism" is not a problem in "gaming". Some assholes just go out of their way to be nasty.
1: Although I don't think that women necessarily have "no interest in whatsoever", I'd say this is because one of the fundamental ideas of "diversity" is that if something is more "diverse", it automatically must be better. Therefore, if we had more women or muslims or hispanics or blacks or ____________ making games or writing books or take your pick, they would be better.Retrograde said:
Personally, I don't care if the game I play or movie I watch was written or directed by a group of ten 65-year-old white republican males from Arkansas, or a group of 10 people each representing different religions, ethnic groups, sexualities, sexes, and political parties. I care about the following: did I enjoy it, and am I happy I spent my money on it?
2: Because anytime something doesn't have a representation that 100% matches the populace at large, many people claim that it's due to some sort of '-ism'. It's the same way people claim that it must be "sexism" that makes it so the vast majority of engineers are men, or that the vast majority of teachers or nurses are women.
Also, the OP should probably look at some of Maddox's stuff, it's not meant to be taken that seriously.
that....would actually be hilarious and awesome (for alot of characters, not just nathan drake in particular)Rebel_Raven said:
I really hope they do that, or do it more often. VA's are obviously more comfortable in VA form, so why not let them do it that way?
otherwise I agree alot with what you've said, especially with the part that the industry needs to take the first step forward in the "chicken and egg" scenario, I think if they get one big hit out there (I was hoping it would be tomb raider, loved the game) then it'll domino effect a bunch of other big female lead games as such.
Maybe if we could get over the fact that women do play games and want to play games?
Apparently some still struggle with this.
I have faith in the industry to get better, eventually.
I don't think it'll be a completely smooth ride and we'll have to deal with the fuckups, but I think we'll get there.
The community, though...
Apparently some still struggle with this.
I have faith in the industry to get better, eventually.
I don't think it'll be a completely smooth ride and we'll have to deal with the fuckups, but I think we'll get there.
The community, though...
Something that is really important to remember with that number that people use all the time. When they say 45% of all gamers are women they are counting everyone who plays any game. People who just play candy crush (not that there is anything wrong with that) are counted with people who sit in front of the computer for hours. I think if you cut that portion of people out you would see the numbers change vastly.Colin Murray said:
Virtual music stars works in Japan. Possibly in the U.S. with the holographic 2pac. May as well give it a go with videogames, I figure.gmaverick019 said:
It'd be excellent advertising, and a way to help people get more invested in what is being advertised, IMO. Heck, it could help improve how people see the medium, and possibly help mature the medium.
Heck, it might clean up some characters, and create some watermark for future game characters as game characters need to be publically presentable for this sort of publicity. Not just the charactrers, but the games as well.
I'm not saying that a gorefests, or a boobfest would have no place in gaming anymore, mind you. These still exist in books, movies, and such.
I was hoping it'd be Tomb Raider, too, that helped get women out of the quagmire they're in as leading characters. I suppose it wasn't enough like the old Tomb Raider. Well, hopefully, the sequel proves something.
The website I linked also mentioned that about 32% of gamers are "social gamers", So while it is reasonable to assume that the 45% of gamers which would shift, it still would *most likely* leave a large percentage of female gamers. Additionally, while it says 32% *are* social gamers, it's not saying that they're exclusively social gamers.Robert Marrs said:
What all that means is I dunno, (I'm making a guess here), it's probably reasonable to assume that women still make up between a quarter to a third of the gaming community, and that their opinions are valid, and that the statement I originally quoted is at best hyperbolic nonsense.
Edit: Additionally, it's reported about only 6% of people that work in the gaming industry are female, which (to me) appears pretty telling that something is going on
source: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-04-26-mp-highlights-lack-of-women-in-games-industry
Edit II: Can't stop myself! statistiiiiiiiics. *Ahem*. Also relevant to the discussion (I think), Only about 25-30% of math majors are female, and annually less and less computer science majors are female.
source: http://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/legacy/pdf/BytheNumbers09.pdf
and http://math.mit.edu/wim/about/
I didn't read it that way. I read it more for the last sentence.wulf3n said:
If you talk to someone that hates a movement to learn about the movement they hate, then their bias will assuredly show through, and possibly make you hate them, too.
That said learning from someone who favors the group will assuredly lead to bias for the positive.
Either way, they likely want to recruit you into their camp.
IMO, learn from both... or just not give a crap about the group, and represent your own ideas.
People can agree, or disagree with any group, but pretending that they're automastically a member, or their views match the rest iof the group is a mistake, imo.
very true, it would definitely give people a better perspective (the people who don't actually play the game or play games in general. It's hard to garner characters attributes when you don't play the game/read the codexs/etc...) and connection for people with game characters.Rebel_Raven said:Virtual music stars works in Japan. Possibly in the U.S. with the holographic 2pac. May as well give it a go with videogames, I figure.gmaverick019 said:
It'd be excellent advertising, and a way to help people get more invested in what is being advertised, IMO. Heck, it could help improve how people see the medium, and possibly help mature the medium.
Heck, it might clean up some characters, and create some watermark for future game characters as game characters need to be publically presentable for this sort of publicity. Not just the charactrers, but the games as well.
I'm not saying that a gorefests, or a boobfest would have no place in gaming anymore, mind you. These still exist in books, movies, and such.
I wish they would've had the option (at least on PC) to have the island truly be "connected", because i think having a mission maker/editor if the island was fully connected would've been awesome (rather than have this door/checkpoint teleports you to this portion of the island 1 km away) and really added replayability/life to the game.
don't get me wrong, the game is great and i loved every second of it, but i can't see myself dragging through the whole game again getting all those extras again..at least not at a completionist pace.
By that Logic you shouldn't seek knowledge about feminism from feminists in the same way one should not seek knowledge about white supremacy from a white supremacist.Rebel_Raven said:
I agree.Rebel_Raven said:If you talk to someone that hates a movement to learn about the movement they hate, then their bias will assuredly show through, and possibly make you hate them, too.
That said learning from someone who favors the group will assuredly lead to bias for the positive.
Either way, they likely want to recruit you into their camp.
IMO, learn from both... or just not give a crap about the group, and represent your own ideas.
People can agree, or disagree with any group, but pretending that they're automatically a member, or their views match the rest iof the group is a mistake, imo.
Though I generally judge the worth of someones opinion by how their arguments stand up to scrutiny, which is why I don't bother listening to anyone that actively censors discussion.
Whether or not you agree with the Amazing Atheist or Thunderfoot they allow you to challenge their positions.