Female Perspective - Friend Zone

[shitoutonme]

You're just a girl I want to bone silly.

Well, at least she'd know you never respected her in the first place and she was right to reject you. You're doing a service to the community by confirming that she made the right choice ;3

Youd rather guys continue lying to you?
Id take a honest asshole over a two faced, deceitful, game playing mother fucker any day of the week.
Like it or not, at least with those who admit to believing in the ladder theory, you know exactly where you stand. The others, are probably lying but you can't tell.

The ladder theory is completely bullshit I don't want to sleep with any of my female friends

Thing is, you're only talking about yourself. For all you know, you're part of a 5% statistic of guys who don't want to shag all their female friends and associates. As always, theories like these only attempt to reflect the majority of people, and frankly, there are many who will find merit in the ladder theory.

I, for one, am not looking for a serious relationship. As far as romance and women are concerned, I'm just trying to get some action. The whole concept of running around, trying to find a life partner is unappealing to me. Maybe it's just because I'm 21 (the official age on my profile might say differently, I was just filling out the sign up quickly), vibrant, and too concerned about having fun and living life to give a damn, but I really don't understand why/how cats fall so head-over-heels for some girls. I mean, there are so many women out there, so many different personalities, so many different interests - it just seems... self-denying to just limit yourself to only one girl. Now, I'm not encouraging infidelity here; I just currently believe relationships have expiration dates. As long as it's fun and refreshing to be around a certain girl, I stay with her and only her, but when the excitement and fun wanes, and I begin to find her annoying, insufferable, etc, I move on to the next girl. Upon hearing this, people usually tell me that my relationships are shallow and pointless, and yet, none of them have been able to convince me that their "long haul" relationships are any more substantial. All I usually see are two people who are forcing themselves to stay together after the spark has faded, and I'm sure as hell not down with that B.S.

But I guess that's a whole 'nother thread altogether...

Back to the topic: I suppose the majority of men and women will never see eye-to-eye on this issue, especially on where blame is due, but c'mon, you guys put yourselves in that position. False hope and denial isn't healthy, and if you see that a girl keeps going after douchebags, well, why not become one? What, your pride? Self-respect? Moral snobbery? None of those are getting you any ass, so...

 

[artanis_neravar]

Back to the topic: I suppose the majority of men and women will never see eye-to-eye on this issue, especially on where blame is due, but c'mon, you guys put yourselves in that position. False hope and denial isn't healthy, and if you see that a girl keeps going after douchebags, well, why not become one? What, your pride? Self-respect? Moral snobbery? None of those are getting you any ass, so...

You are all sorts of delusional, once you are past high school the majority of girls do not like douchebags, it's not about how much "ass" you get it's about how happy you are, those guys that sleep with every girl they can may think they are happy but in reality they aren't you can argue all you want but you will be incorrect. For all the people I have seen those in committed happy relationships are always happier then those just sleeping around.

 

[JMeganSnow]

"if a guy waits too long to ask you out, you will no longer consider him a possible romantic partner"

^This is what I am referring to when I say friend zone

In my personal experience, this is largely true. Granted, it may vary for different women, but it has to do with how (perhaps) a large number of women connect with their sexuality. For (perhaps) a large number of us, we interact with guys in one of two ways: mate, or mama. With (PERHAPS) most women, once you enter the "friend zone", you might as well be her brother or son. You're an obligation she has to take care of and groom--maybe not an unwelcome one, but that's what you are.

It's not hopeless, you *can* get back over to the "I'm actually male" side, but you're going to need to demonstrate some significant independence and even indifference in order to do so. You're going to have to stop being a needy hanger-on of the woman you like and start being a rock she can either lean on or pummel without affecting it much.

And if you prefer not to wind up in the friend zone accidentally, don't act like a girl. If a woman wants to talk to you about her feelings/problems/whatever, sure, go on and listen. But don't *empathize*. (And don't try to "fix" her problems by pointing out what she's doing wrong, that'll put you in the "jerk" zone.) You don't have to listen with interest (in fact, it's better that you don't), but do listen with PATIENCE. When she starts to wind down, make some comment that shows you were at least paying attention, but don't agree with her that Shirl is a ***** or her boss totally doesn't pay her enough or whatever. It feels good to know that someone who isn't particularly interested in your problems nevertheless is willing to listen and pay attention while you blither. And the indifference to the problems themselves (not to you) makes you feel even better, because they start feeling like little problems.

 

[Judgement101]

If that is your stance then I shall make my own. It is made by girls who claim it was made by guys who claim it was made bu girls so they have an excuse to not go out with someone.

+1 confusion

It's not you, It's me. =)

what?

+10 confusion

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Having thought about this issue some more, I'm really starting to wish that guys would just drop the whole "friends zone" thing and be honest with themselves. How about, instead of saying "I really liked this girl but she friend zoned me", you just say "I really liked this girl but she wasn't sexually interested in me, although she apparently didn't mind my personality despite my latent misogyny. I then found it very difficult to deal with and accept her unspoken or spoken rejection. I became angry and embittered, went into denial, and started blaming the girl for her heinous crime of not wanting to have sex with me"?

Less snappy, sure. But accurate.

Only if you ignore the fact that the guys who get friend zoned only stay there because of the mixed messages the girl is sending them. Guys who have been friend zoned have good reason to be bitter; the girl they're attracted to has been leading them on, potentially (read:frequently) for months. And yes, I do mean leading them on -- the put down that puts one in the friend zone always leaves just a sliver of hope. It's usually a variation of "it's not you, it's me," and if the "let's just be friends" speech is there, it's almost always tacked on at the end of something like "I'm not looking for a boyfriend right now, but we can be friends!" Instead of turning you down, the girl makes it look like she'd totally be dating you if there weren't other factors in her life. It's manipulative, and its very real.

 

[shitoutonme]

Back to the topic: I suppose the majority of men and women will never see eye-to-eye on this issue, especially on where blame is due, but c'mon, you guys put yourselves in that position. False hope and denial isn't healthy, and if you see that a girl keeps going after douchebags, well, why not become one? What, your pride? Self-respect? Moral snobbery? None of those are getting you any ass, so...

You are all sorts of delusional, once you are past high school the majority of girls do not like douchebags, it's not about how much "ass" you get it's about how happy you are, those guys that sleep with every girl they can may think they are happy but in reality they aren't you can argue all you want but you will be incorrect. For all the people I have seen those in committed happy relationships are always happier then those just sleeping around.

Look, I'm not gonna sit here and play the "you're wrong" game with you over something completely relative. You obviously have experience that is completely opposite of my own. The very fact that you claim "once you are past high school the majority of girls do not like douchebags" proves this. I'm not gonna say that that is a misconception, even though it goes against everything I see, hear, and experience personally, because this is the internet. I can't tell if you're some woman-worshiping sap, or if you're being genuine.

Plus, you have to consider the possible reasons why we have contrary experiences. A good one would be the environments we live in, and I have little doubt that that's probably the main reason. It might be entirely possible that, in your area, women get over that whole phase of dating douchebags after high school, but from where I'm from and the places I've been to, there's little difference in taste between a 35-year-old woman and a 16-year-old as far as I can see.

Hell, maybe my views are jaded, and maybe yours are too. Who's to tell? You'd have to be one arrogant little bastard to think that your own experience holds true 100% of the time for everyone else, but even so, one can only really live by what they see and hear with their own senses. That being said, acting accordingly by what I've experienced has done wonders for me, so why should I suddenly start doing different just because you claim I'm delusional? Apparently, my delusions extend to my reality and affect the people around me.

In the end, you can only go with what works for you...

 

[Bob Hoss]

Personally, the're a lot of people I've stuck in the Friend Zone. The most common reason being that I just plain wasn't attracted to them, nor did I want to be.If I'm perfectly content being just friends, why should we add sex to the whole deal?

Besides,if I enter into a romantic relationship with someone I'm just plain not interested in, that's just being cruel. Even more cruel, considering that we were friends.

But I see your point. The ideal dating relationship is between two people who are friends first and lovers second. The progression makes sense, but if that spark just isn't there...

 

[Daffy F]

As you saw in that other thread, OP, my opinion is that of whether it exists or not, if you care about the person, then it won't matter that she didn't choose you.

I may not be a girl, but the friends that I have agree with my opinion on this. The girl will appreciate you more if you stick around and don't just get hurt and give her up like a bad job when she turns you down.

Friends are more important than romantic relationships!

I would love to hear some female perspectives on this "phenomeneon" though!

I hear that. That's what I usually try to do, although one of my more recent girlfridnds had to go into hospital immediately after we broke up, and that ended up being VERY awkward after she got out a couple of months later :S Ah well...

 

[Turing]

"if a guy waits too long to ask you out, you will no longer consider him a possible romantic partner"

^This is what I am referring to when I say friend zone

In my personal experience, this is largely true. Granted, it may vary for different women, but it has to do with how (perhaps) a large number of women connect with their sexuality. For (perhaps) a large number of us, we interact with guys in one of two ways: mate, or mama. With (PERHAPS) most women, once you enter the "friend zone", you might as well be her brother or son. You're an obligation she has to take care of and groom--maybe not an unwelcome one, but that's what you are.

It's not hopeless, you *can* get back over to the "I'm actually male" side, but you're going to need to demonstrate some significant independence and even indifference in order to do so. You're going to have to stop being a needy hanger-on of the woman you like and start being a rock she can either lean on or pummel without affecting it much.

And if you prefer not to wind up in the friend zone accidentally, don't act like a girl. If a woman wants to talk to you about her feelings/problems/whatever, sure, go on and listen. But don't *empathize*. (And don't try to "fix" her problems by pointing out what she's doing wrong, that'll put you in the "jerk" zone.) You don't have to listen with interest (in fact, it's better that you don't), but do listen with PATIENCE. When she starts to wind down, make some comment that shows you were at least paying attention, but don't agree with her that Shirl is a ***** or her boss totally doesn't pay her enough or whatever. It feels good to know that someone who isn't particularly interested in your problems nevertheless is willing to listen and pay attention while you blither. And the indifference to the problems themselves (not to you) makes you feel even better, because they start feeling like little problems.

Yeah, that sounds pretty much 100% correct, at least based on my 13 years of experience with relationships of various forms.

 

[LKArtillery]

If a guy waits too long? What, is there some sort of time limit? Does a guy have X amount of days to express his feelings?

Romance isn't a carton of eggs. It doesn't have an expiration date.

 

[dstryfe]

Or, alternately, dudes could just start interpreting a "no, but I still like you as a friend" as "no, but I still like you as a friend" instead of "reply hazy try again."

Hah. Yeah...I like to think that I see the replies that way. It's simple, but taking things at face value is often the right way to take them.

The friend zone is fine with me...after all, the only real difference is that I'm not paying for her meals and movie tickets.

 

[Dragonborne88]

In my personal experience, this is largely true. Granted, it may vary for different women, but it has to do with how (perhaps) a large number of women connect with their sexuality. For (perhaps) a large number of us, we interact with guys in one of two ways: mate, or mama. With (PERHAPS) most women, once you enter the "friend zone", you might as well be her brother or son. You're an obligation she has to take care of and groom--maybe not an unwelcome one, but that's what you are.

It's not hopeless, you *can* get back over to the "I'm actually male" side, but you're going to need to demonstrate some significant independence and even indifference in order to do so. You're going to have to stop being a needy hanger-on of the woman you like and start being a rock she can either lean on or pummel without affecting it much.

And if you prefer not to wind up in the friend zone accidentally, don't act like a girl. If a woman wants to talk to you about her feelings/problems/whatever, sure, go on and listen. But don't *empathize*. (And don't try to "fix" her problems by pointing out what she's doing wrong, that'll put you in the "jerk" zone.) You don't have to listen with interest (in fact, it's better that you don't), but do listen with PATIENCE. When she starts to wind down, make some comment that shows you were at least paying attention, but don't agree with her that Shirl is a ***** or her boss totally doesn't pay her enough or whatever. It feels good to know that someone who isn't particularly interested in your problems nevertheless is willing to listen and pay attention while you blither. And the indifference to the problems themselves (not to you) makes you feel even better, because they start feeling like little problems.

A good, informative opinion that was an excellent read. Thanks for giving it, and writing it in a non-biased way.

 

[agrajagthetesty]

Having thought about this issue some more, I'm really starting to wish that guys would just drop the whole "friends zone" thing and be honest with themselves. How about, instead of saying "I really liked this girl but she friend zoned me", you just say "I really liked this girl but she wasn't sexually interested in me, although she apparently didn't mind my personality despite my latent misogyny. I then found it very difficult to deal with and accept her unspoken or spoken rejection. I became angry and embittered, went into denial, and started blaming the girl for her heinous crime of not wanting to have sex with me"?

Less snappy, sure. But accurate.

Only if you ignore the fact that the guys who get friend zoned only stay there because of the mixed messages the girl is sending them. Guys who have been friend zoned have good reason to be bitter; the girl they're attracted to has been leading them on, potentially (read:frequently) for months. And yes, I do mean leading them on -- the put down that puts one in the friend zone always leaves just a sliver of hope. It's usually a variation of "it's not you, it's me," and if the "let's just be friends" speech is there, it's almost always tacked on at the end of something like "I'm not looking for a boyfriend right now, but we can be friends!" Instead of turning you down, the girl makes it look like she'd totally be dating you if there weren't other factors in her life. It's manipulative, and its very real.

Remember how I said that the "friends zone" guy finds rejection hard to accept? Yeah, that still applies. Any guy who sees hope in those sorts of responses is delusional. The girl only leaves that (minuscule) amount of wiggle room in her rejection because she doesn't want to make the guy feel bad and destroy his self-esteem. Far from manipulative, it's actually intended as an act of kindness - letting him down gently.

Is it the right thing to do? No, I don't think so. I think with that sort of guy it's better to be brutally honest: it's quicker, cleaner, and gets the message across properly rather than forcing him to accept implications that he doesn't want to see. But we can't blame the girl who does this; probably she genuinely likes the guy's personality and doesn't want to hurt him.

Also, the girl has usually not been "leading him on". Wanting to be friends with someone is not manipulating them. It could be "leading him on" if she was overly flirty or seductive around him, but usually she isn't. Only friendly.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Having thought about this issue some more, I'm really starting to wish that guys would just drop the whole "friends zone" thing and be honest with themselves. How about, instead of saying "I really liked this girl but she friend zoned me", you just say "I really liked this girl but she wasn't sexually interested in me, although she apparently didn't mind my personality despite my latent misogyny. I then found it very difficult to deal with and accept her unspoken or spoken rejection. I became angry and embittered, went into denial, and started blaming the girl for her heinous crime of not wanting to have sex with me"?

Less snappy, sure. But accurate.

Only if you ignore the fact that the guys who get friend zoned only stay there because of the mixed messages the girl is sending them. Guys who have been friend zoned have good reason to be bitter; the girl they're attracted to has been leading them on, potentially (read:frequently) for months. And yes, I do mean leading them on -- the put down that puts one in the friend zone always leaves just a sliver of hope. It's usually a variation of "it's not you, it's me," and if the "let's just be friends" speech is there, it's almost always tacked on at the end of something like "I'm not looking for a boyfriend right now, but we can be friends!" Instead of turning you down, the girl makes it look like she'd totally be dating you if there weren't other factors in her life. It's manipulative, and its very real.

Remember how I said that the "friends zone" guy finds rejection hard to accept? Yeah, that still applies. Any guy who sees hope in those sorts of responses is delusional. The girl only leaves that (minuscule) amount of wiggle room in her rejection because she doesn't want to make the guy feel bad and destroy his self-esteem. Far from manipulative, it's actually intended as an act of kindness - letting him down gently.

Is it the right thing to do? No, I don't think so. I think with that sort of guy it's better to be brutally honest: it's quicker, cleaner, and gets the message across properly rather than forcing him to accept implications that he doesn't want to see. But we can't blame the girl who does this; probably she genuinely likes the guy's personality and doesn't want to hurt him.

Also, the girl has usually not been "leading him on". Wanting to be friends with someone is not manipulating them. It could be "leading him on" if she was overly flirty or seductive around him, but usually she isn't. Only friendly.

Let me put it this way: it's not just a certain type of guy. All guys are stupid when it comes to dating. It is inherently dishonest to leave that sliver of hope, not to mention cruel. Speaking from experience, it hurts a hell of a lot less in the long run, for both parties, just to honestly say no. And yeah, it is leading him on; by the time she friend zones him, she knows exactly what he wants. She keeps giving him a sliver of hope that he'll eventually get it, but he never does. How is that not leading him on?

Edit: Do girls honestly think that friend zoning a guy can help preserve his self esteem? It's the most emasculating thing on the planet. There's nothing kind about it.

 

[high_castle]

Let me put it this way: it's not just a certain type of guy. All guys are stupid when it comes to dating. It is inherently dishonest to leave that sliver of hope, not to mention cruel. Speaking from experience, it hurts a hell of a lot less in the long run, for both parties, just to honestly say no. And yeah, it is leading him on; by the time she friend zones him, she knows exactly what he wants. She keeps giving him a sliver of hope that he'll eventually get it, but he never does. How is that not leading him on?


Edit: Do girls honestly think that friend zoning a guy can help preserve his self esteem? It's the most emasculating thing on the planet. There's nothing kind about it.

Here's how the friend zone works for me: if I know you long enough and like you as a friend, I might not want to date you to risk messing that up. But I don't want to stop hanging around you, either. So hopefully we can preserve a pre-existing friendship.

Now, I don't believe in friend-zoning someone I go out with once or twice. Why? Because if I'm not interested in dating you, it's probably because there's something about you I fundamentally dislike. I'm pretty uncomplicated and I don't believe in stringing anyone along. If I find out something about you that I don't like or can't reconcile, why would I want to be friends with you? And you're right, the whole "we can still be friends" line is just that. It's a line

But here's the thing: you need to recognize it as a line. Just like "now's not a good time for me," "it's not you, it's me." If you're being strung along, than it's your fault. These are textbook breakup lines, and maybe they're not as straightforward as "I don't want to see you anymore," but the meaning's the same. So don't hang onto a sliver of hope. There is none. It's just an attempt by some girls (and guys) to do the same.

All this being said, I'm so not the gal to go to for this kind of advice or perspective. I take the three week exit with just about everyone I date.

 

[shitoutonme]

In my personal experience, this is largely true. Granted, it may vary for different women, but it has to do with how (perhaps) a large number of women connect with their sexuality. For (perhaps) a large number of us, we interact with guys in one of two ways: mate, or mama. With (PERHAPS) most women, once you enter the "friend zone", you might as well be her brother or son. You're an obligation she has to take care of and groom--maybe not an unwelcome one, but that's what you are.

It's not hopeless, you *can* get back over to the "I'm actually male" side, but you're going to need to demonstrate some significant independence and even indifference in order to do so. You're going to have to stop being a needy hanger-on of the woman you like and start being a rock she can either lean on or pummel without affecting it much.

And if you prefer not to wind up in the friend zone accidentally, don't act like a girl. If a woman wants to talk to you about her feelings/problems/whatever, sure, go on and listen. But don't *empathize*. (And don't try to "fix" her problems by pointing out what she's doing wrong, that'll put you in the "jerk" zone.) You don't have to listen with interest (in fact, it's better that you don't), but do listen with PATIENCE. When she starts to wind down, make some comment that shows you were at least paying attention, but don't agree with her that Shirl is a ***** or her boss totally doesn't pay her enough or whatever. It feels good to know that someone who isn't particularly interested in your problems nevertheless is willing to listen and pay attention while you blither. And the indifference to the problems themselves (not to you) makes you feel even better, because they start feeling like little problems.

A good, informative opinion that was an excellent read. Thanks for giving it, and writing it in a non-biased way.

Good Lord, I wouldn't say that, but yeah, Ms. Snow speaks truth. Unfortunately, this means that a lot of guys are going to have change who they are in order to accommodate women the way they want to be accommodated.

Everything that Ms. Snow said solidifies my belief about many women being compulsive liars of sorts. Although Ms. Snow here seems quite self-aware, practical, and realistic, others would advise you that the best way to attract/get a girl is to "be yourself," and according to the truth-telling Ms. Snow, this is utterly false. I could go on, but I gotta head out for work. Maybe I'll tl;dr about this later...

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Let me put it this way: it's not just a certain type of guy. All guys are stupid when it comes to dating. It is inherently dishonest to leave that sliver of hope, not to mention cruel. Speaking from experience, it hurts a hell of a lot less in the long run, for both parties, just to honestly say no. And yeah, it is leading him on; by the time she friend zones him, she knows exactly what he wants. She keeps giving him a sliver of hope that he'll eventually get it, but he never does. How is that not leading him on?


Edit: Do girls honestly think that friend zoning a guy can help preserve his self esteem? It's the most emasculating thing on the planet. There's nothing kind about it.

Here's how the friend zone works for me: if I know you long enough and like you as a friend, I might not want to date you to risk messing that up. But I don't want to stop hanging around you, either. So hopefully we can preserve a pre-existing friendship.

Now, I don't believe in friend-zoning someone I go out with once or twice. Why? Because if I'm not interested in dating you, it's probably because there's something about you I fundamentally dislike. I'm pretty uncomplicated and I don't believe in stringing anyone along. If I find out something about you that I don't like or can't reconcile, why would I want to be friends with you? And you're right, the whole "we can still be friends" line is just that. It's a line

But here's the thing: you need to recognize it as a line. Just like "now's not a good time for me," "it's not you, it's me." If you're being strung along, than it's your fault. These are textbook breakup lines, and maybe they're not as straightforward as "I don't want to see you anymore," but the meaning's the same. So don't hang onto a sliver of hope. There is none. It's just an attempt by some girls (and guys) to do the same.

All this being said, I'm so not the gal to go to for this kind of advice or perspective. I take the three week exit with just about everyone I date.

Well I do take it as that now, I just had to learn the hard way -- the "we aren't psychic" thing does go both ways. It just gets me when people start saying things like "oh, the friend zone doesn't exist, it's just an excuse made up by guys for why they didn't get the girl," which couldn't be farther from the truth; rather, it's an explanation of why they were wasting time after the girl told them no, but in a way that, unless you're psychic or have already been through that particular wringer a few times, doesn't actually mean no. And you have the right idea; I can completely understand not wanting to date someone you've been friends with for a very long time -- although for me it's always been because it eventually gets squicky to think of them like that, not because I'm worried about ruining a friendship -- after all, mature individuals, assuming the break up was on good terms, do not have to hate each others guts just because a relationship didn't work out. If it wasn't on good terms, the friendship probably wasn't as good as you thought it was to begin with. Further, you really have the right idea by not friend zoning a guy who you don't know all that well. He initiated the contact because he had a romantic interest in you. A platonic friendship, at that point, is not going to be possible, at least not beyond a superficial level, and always with the undercurrent that the guy wants more. He'll appreciate the honesty.

 

[high_castle]

Well I do take it as that now, I just had to learn the hard way -- the "we aren't psychic" thing does go both ways. It just gets me when people start saying things like "oh, the friend zone doesn't exist, it's just an excuse made up by guys for why they didn't get the girl," which couldn't be farther from the truth; rather, it's an explanation of why they were wasting time after the girl told them no, but in a way that, unless you're psychic or have already been through that particular wringer a few times, doesn't actually mean no. And you have the right idea; I can completely understand not wanting to date someone you've been friends with for a very long time -- although for me it's always been because it eventually gets squicky to think of them like that, not because I'm worried about ruining a friendship -- after all, mature individuals, assuming the break up was on good terms, do not have to hate each others guts just because a relationship didn't work out. If it wasn't on good terms, the friendship probably wasn't as good as you thought it was to begin with. Further, you really have the right idea by not friend zoning a guy who you don't know all that well. He initiated the contact because he had a romantic interest in you. A platonic friendship, at that point, is not going to be possible, at least not beyond a superficial level, and always with the undercurrent that the guy wants more. He'll appreciate the honesty.

Well, I was speaking a bit from personal experience about the ruining a friendship thing. However good the dynamic is between friends, dating someone--at least on a serious level--is a completely different bag of chips. Especially because the tendency when dating someone you've known for a long time is to skip the wading in part (makes sense; part of dating is getting to know someone; if you already know them, why waste time with all the talking, talking, talking?). So basically it's easy to jump right into RELATIONSHIP waters: all caps, serious business. And if something doesn't work out...well, it's not easy to backslide. Not if one party still wants a relationship and the other one's completely paranoid about commitment (that would be me).

Anyway, personal business aside, I look at the friend line as standard fare now. It's in TV shows, movies, lit, etc. Really, it shouldn't be much of a surprise that she doesn't really want to be friends. It's still the cowards way out, but I stand by my assessment that everyone should know what it really means by this point unless you're a teenager and still quite new to the dating experience.