Female Perspective - Friend Zone

[JMeganSnow]

If a guy waits too long? What, is there some sort of time limit? Does a guy have X amount of days to express his feelings?

There's no expiration date. I know at least two very happy couples who waited a long time after they first met before they kicked off an actual relationship. The problem is that what happens with most guys is that they'll decide they like a woman, then do nothing about it thinking he can put off the moment of truth indefinitely until she has time to get to like him.

This does not work. Women are not oblivious. We CAN tell that you've got some kind of emotional hangup going on over us--er, assuming we're not currently distracted by our own emotional hangup over YOU. Then, we don't know crap even though we'll likely spend every waking moment analyzing your every word and facial expression. Don't ask me how/why this works out this way, it just does.

Anyway, after it's become obvious that there's some kind of emotional something-or-other going on, but you don't DO anything about it (apart from turn yourself into some kind of needy touchy-feely obnoxious twerp, which also does happen and contributes to the "expiration date" phenomenon), you'll get kicked over to friend status. This is what triggers the "expiration date" thing.

So, it's not that you have X amount of time to hit it off with a woman. You don't. You have a limited amount of time to express whatever it is you're feeling once you start feeling it. Do yourself a favor and speak up BEFORE you go insane and lose all credibility.

*Note: This advice by no means applies universally to all men and all women. Some men really do seem to want a mama. Some women really do seem to want guys who need to be mothered. This is very generic advice at its best. Keep your eyes open and you probably won't need it.

**Extra note: If you're at the stage when you're posting on forums "so, I met this girl I really like, what do I do?!??!?" you've already gone insane and lost all credibility. No, really. No, you have. So go ask her out so she can say no and you can get over it. You really will. And you'll know better how not to go crazy the next time.

 

[JMeganSnow]

Edit: Do girls honestly think that friend zoning a guy can help preserve his self esteem? It's the most emasculating thing on the planet. There's nothing kind about it.

Why? What's wrong with a desire for friendship?

Because YOU WANT SOMETHING MORE!!!

Nobody wants to be just friends with people they like. Its the most frustrating thing ever.

So I secretly want to be in a relationship with all of the male people I consider my friends, despite being content in a relationship already? Frankly, that's retarded.

????

Yes, because that is obviously what I stated as fact in my post. I didn't mean people you LIKE LIKE at all.

If the only value you can get from a friendship like that is sexual, then it's not really much of a friendship to begin with.

You're misunderstanding his, perhaps badly-conveyed, idea here. Sexual desire is related to one's values. The more you like and value a person, the more you will come to desire them sexually. Whether you DO anything about that or not obviously has a whole bunch of other reasoning and ramifications behind it.

In addition, friendships tend to be based around different kinds of shared values than romantic relationships, more casual stuff like "will hang out with me and play video games" or "knows me from back in high school and likes to chat over beer". So, yes, it's quite possible to have many non-romantic friends of the opposite sex, but if you start spending significant time with any one of them and talking about less-casual values, you will likely start to feel some romantic pangs there. Responsible people will usually back off from these and chill the relationship just a tad, until it's a nice comfortable friendship again. Irresponsible people cheat on their significant other, which is usually ill-advised.

 

[Ickorus]

To be honest, I wouldn't say the 'Friend Zone' exists, i've had more than one girlfriend whom I was long term friends with before we dated. (And remained friends with when the relationships ran their courses)

Funny thing is they lasted a hell of a lot longer than many relationships because we actually had a solid foundation to build on and common interests, only reason one of the relationships ended was because of distance sadly. I'd totally ask her out again if I ever moved closer to her or vice versa.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Edit: Do girls honestly think that friend zoning a guy can help preserve his self esteem? It's the most emasculating thing on the planet. There's nothing kind about it.

Why? What's wrong with a desire for friendship?

Because YOU WANT SOMETHING MORE!!!

Nobody wants to be just friends with people they like. Its the most frustrating thing ever.

So I secretly want to be in a relationship with all of the male people I consider my friends, despite being content in a relationship already? Frankly, that's retarded.

????

Yes, because that is obviously what I stated as fact in my post. I didn't mean people you LIKE LIKE at all.

If the only value you can get from a friendship like that is sexual, then it's not really much of a friendship to begin with.

Alright, let me clear this up. Sorry if I came on a little bit strong ( i feel a bit too strongly about this, sadly).

I meant whenever someone likes someone ( In the intimate sort of way), they don't want their "friendship". Some people may settle for it, but what you really want is the person you like's affection. Knowing that the person you like doesn't share the same feelings just...sucks.

Because, no matter how "close" you get, you'll never be as close as her lover.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

If that is your stance then I shall make my own. It is made by girls who claim it was made by guys who claim it was made bu girls so they have an excuse to not go out with someone.

+1 confusion

It's not you, It's me. =)

what?

+10 confusion

I don't want to mess this up. Any girl would be insane not to want to throw you down and ...
I am just afraid I would let you down, and I never want to hurt you.

How many bonus points is that? }8)

 

[Austin Ashe]

I was responding to a post about the Friend Zone in another thread and I was wondering what the women/girls/ladies on this site think about the whole idea. (I am male)
Also I am aware that the thread title might draw guys here believing that this is a females perspective which is what I was hoping for, because the male perspective can be useful too.

Yeah... as a woman, I would say that the friend zone is a fiction. If we're attracted to you early on, we're just as attracted to you later.

So in other words, if you AREN'T attracted to a guy early on, then chances are you WON'T be attracted to him later. Yet you might still be friends with him. That's the friend zone. However, the whole "friend zone" thing is kinda hard to really have a deep discussion about because everyone seems to have a different definition of what it is.

Your point actually SUPPORTS the idea of a friend zone, if it doesn't outright prove it, at least when it comes to you. And if it exists anywhere at all, then it exists, period.

Not a big deal or anything... you know... just saying...

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Edit: Do girls honestly think that friend zoning a guy can help preserve his self esteem? It's the most emasculating thing on the planet. There's nothing kind about it.

Why? What's wrong with a desire for friendship?

Because YOU WANT SOMETHING MORE!!!

Nobody wants to be just friends with people they like. Its the most frustrating thing ever.

So I secretly want to be in a relationship with all of the male people I consider my friends, despite being content in a relationship already? Frankly, that's retarded.

????

Yes, because that is obviously what I stated as fact in my post. I didn't mean people you LIKE LIKE at all.

If the only value you can get from a friendship like that is sexual, then it's not really much of a friendship to begin with.

You're misunderstanding his, perhaps badly-conveyed, idea here. Sexual desire is related to one's values. The more you like and value a person, the more you will come to desire them sexually. Whether you DO anything about that or not obviously has a whole bunch of other reasoning and ramifications behind it.

In addition, friendships tend to be based around different kinds of shared values than romantic relationships, more casual stuff like "will hang out with me and play video games" or "knows me from back in high school and likes to chat over beer". So, yes, it's quite possible to have many non-romantic friends of the opposite sex, but if you start spending significant time with any one of them and talking about less-casual values, you will likely start to feel some romantic pangs there. Responsible people will usually back off from these and chill the relationship just a tad, until it's a nice comfortable friendship again. Irresponsible people cheat on their significant other, which is usually ill-advised.

I disagree that values and sexual attraction are necessarily related. Sexual attraction is based more on chemistry and timing rather than values. Sure you can grow to find someone attractive due to their values, but if you are excited and then get hit with someone you have extreme chemistry with values are the last thing to come to mind. It usually takes everything you have to resist your sexual attraction at that point =)

 

[Smooth Operator]

I don't want to mess this up. Any girl would be insane not to want to throw you down and ...
I am just afraid I would let you down, and I never want to hurt you.

How many bonus points is that? }8)

Ah the Bag Of Infinite Bullshit, every girls best friend, and it brings us guys somuch joy

 

[Austin Ashe]

No offence, but it is very hard (at least I find it hard) to say to someone that your not interested in them, especially if you are friends (which you probably are if you think of yourself as friendzoned). I'll admit it probably is an annoying thing for a girl to say to you, but often it's because we'd feel horrible for just saying we don't find the person attractive.

I'll agree it's difficult, but sometimes the difficult thing is the right thing to do. If you come out with it honestly it can avert some really nasty moods for both you and the person you're dealing with. The same thing as being confident enough to just ask someone out applies here, sometimes you just have to be cold enough to avert a slow and torturous train wreck.

See, I agree with what this guy is saying, but I'd put it another way...

The guy had enough courage to actually bring it up. The girl should also have enough courage to answer honestly.

 

[Mr.logic]

This, a thousand times this.

Son of a...

http://www.laddertheory.com/

Ladder theory here to save the day!

DOUBLE SON OF A!!!

I have reasons to trust the ladder theory heres why:

I'm a relatively handsome young man, no serious muscles no serious wealth.

I'm a devote christian who believes heavily in self sacrifice. my time money, and resources are freely given to others out of kindness(I also haven't had a job in 5 months).

80% of my friends have girl friends
One is a regular skater douche no job.
One is a muscular christian guy who trys to follow the bible, and with a job.
One is a extremely skinny christian guy who focuses less on selflessness, and more on charisma in preaching, he also has a job,
One is an ordinary douchebag no job.

I haven't tried talking to many girls because most girls don't impress me. I tried only three times this year.

First was a young muslim girl 2 years older then me she was gorgeous, driven, kind, fun, not funny, and generally lovely. I hung out with her for two days. We talked about politics, religion, even sex. I complimented her a few times, we never went out regardless of my asking.

Second was a young christian girl 2 years older then me she was pretty, driven, whacky, excited, and kind. I hung out with her for little more than an hour she was uniterested, nothing more was said.

Third a native american women 5 years older than me. She is very pretty, similar interests, busy, confident. She is a massive nerd like me we hung out, and played dnd together, we spent 3 days together. I ask her out she says no. I ask her out again a few weeks later she says no. we are scheduled to play dnd, and watch a movie with friends next week(P.S. She told me her relationships all failed before me why should I be different from them?)

 

[Rannonzero]

The "friend zone" exists. Of course it does. And it sucks to be in it, because it isn't a zone any guy WANTS to be in. It is not being friends with a woman whom you are not sexually attracted to, it is being in love with a woman but having no reciprocation.

I think that may be the biggest part of the confusion if there is any here. Friends zone does not equal friends. This is because friends and sexual partners are two different distinctions. And this is because sexual relationships are very intense (well the good ones are) both emotionally and mentally. So if you want to have a friend AND have sex with them, you are talking about a serious relationship with all the bells and whistles.

Being in the friend zone is getting blue balls while pretending you don't have them. It is NOT being a good friend on either side.

This is not to say that you can't be friends with the opposite sex. I have a few women who are my FRIENDS. One of them I consider to be a very good friend. She helped me out with a lot of mental issues (I recommended that she go back to school and take up psychology because of the help she gave) and I think she is awesome. However, I have ZERO sexual attraction for her. This allows me to be her friend and not be in the friend zone.

That being said, the woman doesn't put you in the friend zone, you put yourself there. You have to realize (it's a tough lesson, I know) that your emotions don't rule your actions. Feel angry, betrayed, thrilled, obsessed, manic, or what have you, but understand that those feelings don't force you to act on them. Just because you like a girl doesn't mean you have to talk to her. And just because you are afraid of talking to her doesn't mean you have to run away. Granted, you can't control what emotions you feel, but I know from my own experiences that you can control what you do with those feelings. Until you are able to separate the two, you are bound to be controlled by them.

When a woman you like says "I'd like to just be friends" and you are HONESTLY ok with never sleeping with that woman, THEN say yes.

Otherwise, nothing is stopping you from saying "I understand. However, and I don't mean this in any kind of angry or vindictive way, but I don't think that would be good for me right now. Maybe at some later date when I am with someone far better than you, and I don't have this social weight over my head of having to have a girlfriend as socially acceptable as you or better, maybe THEN I could supplement my social status with a "friend" like you, but until then I would just be shooting myself in the foot by putting any amount of energy or commitment into a relationship of any kind with you when all it will amount to is me lying to everyone, myself, and you whenever I am around you." Or simply "Ah... well, honestly it would probably be better for both of us if we just went back to being acquaintances then. Friends isn't going to work for me right now."

I'm not saying that women couldn't be a bit more forthcoming about what they expect to be in relation to you when you pour your heart out, but I am saying you shouldn't take it lying down. Unless you LIKE being the shoulder to cry on and you LIKE being a brother figure, why should you take it? Don't be vindictive or mean, just be honest and move on. It's better for both of you, and you have no one to blame but yourself if you know this and find yourself in this situation where you are parked in the friend zone.

 

[Austin Ashe]

Ok facts of life time. chics want Alpha males that are all so nice guys, but most Alpha males are assholes. so like most woman they want what they can't have

Now before you say "but Joker I'm not an Alpha male and i got a GF" well that's because she couldn't get the Alpha male and settled for just the nice guy. just like you couldn't get the super model and settled for her.

See, this kind of thing is why, while I acknowledge the casual dating scene and all of it's facets, including things like "the friend zone", I simply cannot take it seriously.

Honestly, I'd take a woman I was in love with over any super model (assuming said super model is not the woman I was in love with). No, this isn't a loyalty thing or a self-sacrifice thing. Truth is, the observation of beauty is subjective, and the theoretical woman I love is, subjectively, more attractive to me than the super model would ever be. And while I could be absolutely enraged at the woman I love, I'd still be in love with her. Meanwhile, the super model would get her ass kicked out the door at the first sign of defiance, because I'm not desperate enough to put up with BS from any woman no matter how hot she is.

But love isn't even mentioned in these kinds of discussions, so I ultimately can't even take it seriously. It's just "I wanna fuck her but she won't let me and I feel like I'm less than a man because of it" and I just want to roll my eyes at it.

However, I have noticed particular patterns in these discussions:

There's always a guy who says that other guys are jerks for being mad about a woman not wanting to screw them. I often have to wonder if this man has ever even experienced the sheer awkwardness of continuing to talk to a woman who, let's face it, wasn't that close of a friend to you to begin with, and isn't going to date you, and even though there's really nothing between you, romantic or otherwise, you are still keeping in touch with her because you want to be nice and you want to be on good terms but it's just so wierd and you really don't have anything to say to her and she has nothing to say to you so you just smile and say hi and pretend that you're happy to see each other while in your minds you both want to get out of that situation as fast as you possibly can and and and blah blah blah etc. and so on.

There's also a lot of misogyny. As if the woman is a ***** for not putting out like the whore that she really isn't but we all pretend she is because it makes us feel better about not being validated by her. And then the "Murdering, drug dealing D-bag" is brought up, despite the fact that a woman who chooses him as an acceptable mate, even out of desperation, is not worth dating or, for that matter, even discussing. Granted, a lot of the, "she chose the d-bag over me" probably comes more from jealousy than truth in at least SOME cases, but certainly not all.

And the women are always here to defend themselves because, let's face it! We're attacking them!

 

[Austin Ashe]

Every girl states that she wants a "sweet, nice guy that will treat them right", and yet

-snip-

This right here is your problem. No, not EVERY girl says this. Sure, every fictional girl in every romantic comedy might say this, but as for the REAL ACTUAL NON-MADE-UP-BY-HOLLYWOOD girls I've listened to...

Some say they want someone who is taller than them (because for some reason some girls feel like freaks for being tall, not sure why). This is her basically admiting that she wants someone with certain physical features.

Some say they want a guy who is assertive. Yes, this is the typical alpha male. Keep in mind that I said SOME, and not all.

However, I've never actually heard a woman say that she wants someone who is nice or sweet. How the woman is treated is never even brought up.

Truth is, women are individuals. No one woman can speak for all of them. Blaming every woman for the actions of one is silly at best and sexist at worst.


Edit: Eeep, didn't mean to double post. Sorry!

 

[shitoutonme]

Every girl states that she wants a "sweet, nice guy that will treat them right", and yet

-snip-

This right here is your problem. No, not EVERY girl says this. Sure, every fictional girl in every romantic comedy might say this, but as for the REAL ACTUAL NON-MADE-UP-BY-HOLLYWOOD girls I've listened to...

Some say they want someone who is taller than them (because for some reason some girls feel like freaks for being tall, not sure why). This is her basically admiting that she wants someone with certain physical features.

Some say they want a guy who is assertive. Yes, this is the typical alpha male. Keep in mind that I said SOME, and not all.

However, I've never actually heard a woman say that she wants someone who is nice or sweet. How the woman is treated is never even brought up.

Truth is, women are individuals. No one woman can speak for all of them. Blaming every woman for the actions of one is silly at best and sexist at worst.


Edit: Eeep, didn't mean to double post. Sorry!

Actually, this isn't my problem, assuming you're referring to the friend zone. Like I said, I've never been in it, and as for everything else you said, I'll tell you the same thing I told that other guy. Allow me to self-quote:

Look, I'm not gonna sit here and play the "you're wrong" game with you over something completely relative. You obviously have experience that is completely opposite of my own. The very fact that you claim "once you are past high school the majority of girls do not like douchebags" proves this. I'm not gonna say that that is a misconception, even though it goes against everything I see, hear, and experience personally, because this is the internet. I can't tell if you're some woman-worshiping sap, or if you're being genuine.

Plus, you have to consider the possible reasons why we have contrary experiences. A good one would be the environments we live in, and I have little doubt that that's probably the main reason. It might be entirely possible that, in your area, women get over that whole phase of dating douchebags after high school, but from where I'm from and the places I've been to, there's little difference in taste between a 35-year-old woman and a 16-year-old as far as I can see.

Hell, maybe my views are jaded, and maybe yours are too. Who's to tell? You'd have to be one arrogant little bastard to think that your own experience holds true 100% of the time for everyone else, but even so, one can only really live by what they see and hear with their own senses. That being said, acting accordingly by what I've experienced has done wonders for me, so why should I suddenly start doing different just because you claim I'm delusional? Apparently, my delusions extend to my reality and affect the people around me.

In the end, you can only go with what works for you...

 

[JMeganSnow]

I disagree that values and sexual attraction are necessarily related. Sexual attraction is based more on chemistry and timing rather than values. Sure you can grow to find someone attractive due to their values, but if you are excited and then get hit with someone you have extreme chemistry with values are the last thing to come to mind. It usually takes everything you have to resist your sexual attraction at that point =)

Chemistry = traits with strong emotional connotations. Emotions are based on values. Ergo, chemistry is ultimately values-based. Granted, some people's consciously held and subconsciously automated values do not add up, so they'll find themselves having "chemistry" with people they despise or even weirder situations.

It's really not all that complicated. What gets complicated is people's reactions to it.

 

[Elamdri]

To be honest, I wouldn't say the 'Friend Zone' exists, i've had more than one girlfriend whom I was long term friends with before we dated. (And remained friends with when the relationships ran their courses)

Funny thing is they lasted a hell of a lot longer than many relationships because we actually had a solid foundation to build on and common interests, only reason one of the relationships ended was because of distance sadly. I'd totally ask her out again if I ever moved closer to her or vice versa.

The Friend Zone doesn't mean that you can't date a girl that you are friends with. The Friend Zone is a condition where a guy is in love with a girl who does not reciprocate those feelings, but rather than cut him loose, she keeps him around as a friend. At that point, the guy has got to either get over his feelings and cut her loose (hard to do) or continue to be friends with someone who he desires a much deeper relationship (painful)

 

[Random Argument Man]

Friend zone applies to both sex by the way. Granted, you hear the term from guys who've been rejected since saying "I like her as a friend" seems to diminish your masculinity.

 

[Lionsfan]

Friend zone applies to both sex by the way. Granted, you hear the term from guys who've been rejected since saying "I like her as a friend" seems to diminish your masculinity.

Or you just get called a liar, and your Real Feeling's for her are down there, you don't want to admit it to yourself.

 

[Adam Galli]

One of my good friends is a girl and while at one point we could've dated, I decided not to ask her out because I thought we had a great friendship and I didn't want to ruin that if something terrible happened in a relationship.

 

[Judgement101]

If that is your stance then I shall make my own. It is made by girls who claim it was made by guys who claim it was made bu girls so they have an excuse to not go out with someone.

+1 confusion

It's not you, It's me. =)

what?

+10 confusion

I don't want to mess this up. Any girl would be insane not to want to throw you down and ...
I am just afraid I would let you down, and I never want to hurt you.

How many bonus points is that? }8)

At least 900. Serious, I am beyond confused now.