Feminists next target; Battlefield 1.

[Lightknight]

Just because there weren't formally any women who were combatants in the war, that sure doesn't mean the game can't showcase the roles women did have. And not just for the fuck of it but to add different, interesting chapters and gameplay to the game. Sequences dealing with nurses and spies or women who were part of the fire brigade.

Moved my post from the other thread.

Most people are more concerned with the multiplayer than the story. Sure, the story could do it. Even that Russian women's battalion that actually had a battle would work.

I'm not so much myself concerned with the multiplayer since there's basically no "realism" there anyway. I mean, there's every reason and plenty of ways to have women as combatants in the game, though I'd hope they'd do something more interesting than that. So if it's in the main game, why not in the multiplayer?

I'll admit that I haven't played their games since Battlefield 1942 but they used to make the maps exist in real battle sites with somewhat realistic choke points. Do they not do that anymore?

A real question is how real are they going to take it? Race is going to be a thing too in this case. I assume the idea would be that your black character over/undershot his drop and landed in this other battalion to fight or something.

Women in combat is far less realistic, still is to this day.

Not too realistic I imagine, since a "realistic" multiplayer match would have both sides sitting in a trench for six weeks before charging headlong into machine gun fire. Since that will be no fun whatsoever, I'm sure it'll probably play like most battlefield games, a giant mashup of vehicles slamming around a map populated by everyone running and gunning like chickens. If they are worried about realism, the combat's going to dash the crap out of that anyway unless they do something radically different.

I mean, of course the gameplay isn't realistic. But the weapons, the regions, the equipment and uniforms? Those were kept realistic in the games I used to play.

Is is more important for the weapons to be realistic or the scenarios? I mean if you have all proper guns and uniforms, dose that actually tell you anything about WW1? Is that form of realism superficial?

The only parts that aren't realistic are because of tedium if they were to be realistic. You can't sell a gun where you march in formation and sit in a trench for hours on end. People enjoy being able to run into a battle shoot, kill, die and respawn. That's a core mechanic that had to be set that way in order to get the fan base it got. Pixels resembling bumps on the chest are not that. That would be introducing an anachronism which history games have a bigger issue with than game mechanics being centered around fun.

I mean, I don't care. Battlefield characters have never been the draw. If someone really has an issue with it then there could always be a checkbox stating, "Make all characters appear male" that you can turn off. Would skin changes really be that hard to roll out?

 

[Vigormortis]

Well, thanks for letting me know what my next target is, bro.

Just don't go off half cocked.

;D

Jesus, guys, so what if some people wanted ladies in this game? So what? So what if people are gonna complain?
Trust me, feminists aren't going door-to-door forcing you to give a shit. Maybe just don't fuckin' engage in the conversation if you don't want to be a part of it?

I don't get the trend of making threads about things you admittedly don't want discussed. It's frankly bizarre to me.
And the idea that feminists are just picking 'targets', dudes, take a chill pill. It's not some freaking war just because some people were like "Damn I wanted lady soldiers in this game that said it would have lady soldiers".

And as for the "What so you want to see lady enemies getting killed" crowd- yes, that's exactly what I want. I enjoyed it very much in Skyrim when a lot of the random bandits were female.

Take a minute to sit and think about whether you really care if some people want different things in games to you, and why. Meanwhile, I'll be targeting the video game industry. The plan is to keep playing video games like a normal person, but here's the twist... like a feminist normal person. Huh? Clearly this plan guarantees me control over the entire industry.

If and when you gain that control, mind doin' me a favor? Bring about an end to virtually all QTEs[footnote]Especially those in cutscenes.[/footnote] and escort missions.

My sanity will thank you.

 

[Lightknight]

If and when you gain that control, mind doin' me a favor? Bring about an end to virtually all QTEs[footnote]Especially those in cutscenes.[/footnote] and escort missions.

My sanity will thank you.

Hmm... if Phasmal could accomplish that and also an end to water missions I think I'd support a total ban on all male characters, ever.

 

[Erttheking]

And as for the "What so you want to see lady enemies getting killed" crowd- yes, that's exactly what I want. I enjoyed it very much in Skyrim when a lot of the random bandits were female.

Oh don't bring up that Phasmal! You'll ruin that argument for everyone. Even though every time women appear as rank and file fodder without being stuffed into fetishwear, no one seems to have a problem with it. Bioshock, Fallout, Mass Effect, Sunless Sea, Assassin's Creed Syndicate, Bloodborne, all of these games had women baddies to kill and no one ever called them sexist. BUT THAT COULD ALL CHANGE! Because if it didn't, people would lose an easy "Take that feminist" argument.

 

[CritialGaming]

Well, thanks for letting me know what my next target is, bro.

Jesus, guys, so what if some people wanted ladies in this game? So what? So what if people are gonna complain?
Trust me, feminists aren't going door-to-door forcing you to give a shit. Maybe just don't fuckin' engage in the conversation if you don't want to be a part of it?

I don't get the trend of making threads about things you admittedly don't want discussed. It's frankly bizarre to me.
And the idea that feminists are just picking 'targets', dudes, take a chill pill. It's not some freaking war just because some people were like "Damn I wanted lady soldiers in this game that said it would have lady soldiers".

And as for the "What so you want to see lady enemies getting killed" crowd- yes, that's exactly what I want. I enjoyed it very much in Skyrim when a lot of the random bandits were female.

Take a minute to sit and think about whether you really care if some people want different things in games to you, and why. Meanwhile, I'll be targeting the video game industry. The plan is to keep playing video games like a normal person, but here's the twist... like a feminist normal person. Huh? Clearly this plan guarantees me control over the entire industry.

I agree with you.

My problem is when the projection of every game ever has to have female inclusion.

"Why does GTA only have playable men?" Because the developers wanted to tell violent stories about mob dudes.
"Why does Link have to be a boy every time?" Because Link is a boy.
"It sucks that both playable characters in Cuphead have to be boys." Because the game is developed by two brothers who made the game to represent their childhood experiences.

Often times the lack of a female protagonist or main side characters is projected in a malicious way. But the absence of women is not the same as the oppression of women. That is where I start to take issue, when an extreme label like "sexist/sexism" is slapped onto something that it shouldn't be.

Frankly this whole issue with Battlefield would have even been a thread in the first place if DICE and EA didn't come out and say some stupid shit.

 

[TotalerKrieger]

I think a story centered around a women's platoon in either WW1 or 2 would be cool, but it would have to be an entirely fictional story if they were to be thrust onto the front lines.

It wouldn't have to be fictional if the story was centered around female Soviet soldiers during WW2. 800 000 women served in the Soviet Armed Forces between 1941 and 1945. Soviet women were commonly enlisted into front-line roles (eg. snipers, combat medics, fighter and bomber pilots, anti-aircraft battery crew, supply truck drivers, and even tank crew). The actions of the largely female 1077th Anti-Aircraft Regiment during the Battle of Stalingrad would make for an interesting story in a game or film (although I believe the Russians already made a movie about them).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1077th_Anti-Aircraft_Regiment_(Soviet_Union)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_World_War_II

Top female Soviet sniper -Lyudmila Pavlichenko - 309 confirmed kills

Spoiler

Soviet Fighter Ace - Lydia Litvyak

Spoiler

1st Guards Tank Officer - Aleksandra Samusenko

Spoiler

Female Machine-gun Crew during the Siege of Leningrad

Spoiler

 

[Phasmal]

If and when you gain that control, mind doin' me a favor? Bring about an end to virtually all QTEs[footnote]Especially those in cutscenes.[/footnote] and escort missions.

My sanity will thank you.

Hmm... if Phasmal could accomplish that and also an end to water missions I think I'd support a total ban on all male characters, ever.

It shall be done.

Spoiler: Put your faith in me, my subjects

I agree with you.

My problem is when the projection of every game ever has to have female inclusion.

"Why does GTA only have playable men?" Because the developers wanted to tell violent stories about mob dudes.
"Why does Link have to be a boy every time?" Because Link is a boy.
"It sucks that both playable characters in Cuphead have to be boys." Because the game is developed by two brothers who made the game to represent their childhood experiences.

Often times the lack of a female protagonist or main side characters is projected in a malicious way. But the absence of women is not the same as the oppression of women. That is where I start to take issue, when an extreme label like "sexist/sexism" is slapped onto something that it shouldn't be.

Frankly this whole issue with Battlefield would have even been a thread in the first place if DICE and EA didn't come out and say some stupid shit.

Dude, I'd be more sympathetic if we generally had parity in gender in video games but we don't. People who care about it will always care about it. If you don't want to be part of that conversation, just don't. It's not going to hurt you.

Hell, one of the first things I look up about a new game is "Can you play as a girl?". I just like to. And after years of playing dudes, if I get the choice to be a woman, I will. Many people feel the same. There's nothing wrong with that.
And there's nothing wrong with asking the question "Why can't I?", even if the answer is just because "We didn't feel like it". Fair enough.

Also, is "sexism" really that an extreme label? It just describes treating people differently due to their gender. I get that a lot of people have baggage around that particular word, but it just is what it is. It doesn't have to be a big deal. Like... when my friend assumed I didn't know how to play poker because I'm a woman. That's kinda sexist. It doesn't make him a bad person, and he was clearly corrected (because I play poker like a boss). It's not the end of the world.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Ok, gonna have to stop the hyperbole here. Games in which there was no clamoring for female inclusion. NFL, NBA, NHL, Dust an Elysian Tail, Counter-Strike, Braid, Bastion, Axiom Verge, The Wolf Among Us, Titan Souls, Strike Suit Zero, Rust (Funny story with that one, when the dev included non-white characters that you could get locked into, much like how the game had always locked the player into playing a white character, people lost their shit), Prison Architect, Papers Please, Outlast, Nidhogg, Doom, Mark of the Ninja, Prince of Persia, Dues Ex Mankind Divided, System Shock 3, Shadow Warrior and I think you get the point. Not EVERY game.

GTA and Cuphead should have just said that, and there have been about twelve Links, each being a completely different person. I don't think a female Link is REALLY that far fetched.

I refer you to my above list as to why that's not the case.

You're exactly right. Feminists would not care.

 

[EternallyBored]

And as for the "What so you want to see lady enemies getting killed" crowd- yes, that's exactly what I want. I enjoyed it very much in Skyrim when a lot of the random bandits were female.

Oh don't bring up that Phasmal! You'll ruin that argument for everyone. Even though every time women appear as rank and file fodder without being stuffed into fetishwear, no one seems to have a problem with it.

I've seen it brought up twice (maybe more) in this thread, the idea that feminists or some group would have a conniption if we depicted female characters getting stabbed in some sort of gory fashion in a WW1 game.

Is their any evidence that people would give a shit? I'm curious where this impression comes from. The complaints I've seen are never about the violence against women by itself, it's always the sexualization of the violence. Basically, nobody gave a shit about Lara getting impaled or having her neck sliced open in the Tomb Raider reboot, the complaints were about the sexual assault QTE and that one developers weird comments that happened at the same time of the video about wanting to make us protective of the character. The hitman complaints didn't give a shit about the gruesome ways you could kill the female assassins, it was about their stupid outfits and the sexual themes that seemed out of place to some people.

If you had women dying gruesomely in a WW1 shooter, I seriously doubt more than a few people would care, none of the scenarios presented in the thread would bother anyone. What would draw complaints would be if you charge a trench to knife a female enemy only to discover that the female soldiers were all wearing PVC catsuits or if the one female soldier was inevitably sexually assaulted onscreen and that was her defining character moment, those would probably draw criticism, but neither has anything to do with just killing a female NPC in some generically brutal fashion.

Like the No Russian Mission in CoD, or Skyrim, or Mass Effect, or any number of other games, just killing female NPCs by itself doesn't draw ire, and you will likely be able to kill female NPCs in Fallout4 in a far more brutal fashion than BF 1, as I doubt DICE has suddenly added dismemberment for this entry.

 

[OneCatch]

Though people should forget about this gender crap and be more bothered about the fact that France isn't a playable faction.

What?!
How the fuck can you make a World War 1 game without France? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Jesus Christ, about the only way you could top that would be to have a game about the US Civil War in which neither side featured.

... oh, I see where they've going with this. France will be one of the DLC factions. So congrats DICE, you're managing to completely and grotesquely fuck the actual history of the conflict, while at the same time bulling the usual 'lock core gameplay behind DLC' bullshit.

I mean really, the least they could have done is made the USA DLC - after all, DLC shows up after the main event, adds a couple of new features, and costs an arm and a leg! #TediousBritishWarTalk

 

[Vigormortis]

As I said, EVERY SINGLE GROUP EVER (religious, political, ideological, even fandoms) has the fringe of bad apples.

On that we agree.

But nobody would mention those crazy people as an example of that religious, political, ideological, fandom group......... that is, unless you hate the ideology of that group.

Sigh...

Again, I'm NOT mentioning the fringe as an example of the whole. And I've said none of what was said in my posts out of hate for feminism. As I'd made clear, I support feminism and its general push for equality. (of those forms of feminism that advocate for that)

If you hate Muslisms, you associate them with ISIS fanatics.
If you hate feminism, you associate it with #killallmen.
If you hate Mexicans, you associate them with illegal immigrant criminals.

Agreed, but going in reverse is not something done inherently out of hate. I can recognize that ISIS is an Islamic terror group without thinking all followers of Islam are murdering terrorists. I can recognize that there are illegal immigrants coming out of Mexico who are criminals without thinking all Mexicans nor all illegal immigrants from Mexico are criminals. And, I can recognize that things like #KillAllMen are hateful ideals borne out of the fringes of feminism without thinking feminism as a whole feels the same way.

Understand this: if we look for very specific examples of the negative fringe madmen that would exist in any other group ever, it's because we have a problem with the group as a whole.

No, that's not true. Not in every case.

Granted, one of the most common ways to criticize a group is to look for its nuttier fringes. However, looking for the nuttier fringes, while we're supporting the group, can help us to weed out the nuttier ideals, downplay the negativity, and help us to paint a more positive image.

Ignoring the problems doesn't make them go away.

Yes, Christianity is also linked to Black Mass.

Then why did you bring it up before?

That doesn't mean anyone normally mentions Black Mass as a danger that comes with being Christian, and if you say you are Christian nobody in their right mind wonders if you may be into Black Mass.

Because it's not, as Black Mass is a Satanic ritual. But that doesn't mean it's still not associated with Christianity.

It's because we don't have a problem with Christianity - it's still the strongest Western religion and we certainly don't fear it.

Uh...speak for yourself. I know a lot of people who take issue with Christianity. I have friends and associates who, because of their sexual preferences or ancillary beliefs, have been at the receiving end of some very hateful, angry, even violent behavior from Christians. Christians who belong to very popular denominations.

I know a great many people who fear certain Christians and certain Christian ideals.

No sane person joins PETA thinking to help the environment. They are insane, they regularly murder hundreds of pets. All of their ad materials are a textbook of the deep mental issues of those who created them.

This is presumptive. You're painting a pretty broad image of every person who is or has been a part of PETA. I knew someone who joined PETA and her goal was to help the environment. She wanted to save animals and protect nature.

Are you implying she was lying?

If you ask me to accept crazy man-hating people as legit feminists, then you're telling me Black Mass priests are legit Christian priests.

I'm not asking you to accept anyone. I'm asking you to accept that different forms of feminism exist, some of which do not conform to your particular ideals.

Are you still denying that there are varieties of feminism? Did you read any of the material I linked to you?

Stop bringing up the little groups of fringe extremists as an example of what a movement can do. Unless you think they really represent that movement. And if you think they represent that movement, it means you have a problem with that movement.

Okay, I'm actually getting annoyed at this, Wyvern. Will you please stop putting words into my mouth. It's as if you're not even reading what I type but rather just assume I think one thing and then you go looking for specific buzzwords in my posts to support that assumption.

I'm NOT associating all of feminism with fringe ideals like #KillAllMen. I DON'T have a problem with feminism, as a whole. And I will NOT stop bringing up the fringe extremists. They pose just as much a threat to feminism as anti-feminism groups. They are a cancer that damages the whole from the inside.

If you want to pretend like they don't exist and that there is only one version of feminism, that's fine. That's your choice. But you're just...demonstrably wrong. Even a momentary glance at any of the material I linked to you would show you that. A simple Google search or a quick perusal of Twitter, Facebook, or some other social network would demonstrate it.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be your enemy here. I'm trying to educate and help us both bolster the positives of feminism.

-edit-
I think there's been a huge misunderstanding between us. All I was saying from the start is that there are variant forms of Feminism and that not all of them agree with what you were saying Feminism represents. Everything else that we argued over was borne out of a failure of communication between us both.

Shake hands and make up? Can't we be friends?

 

[Disco Biscuit]

I have a theory about the WWI setting. I think they've given up on trying to refine the flight system, and the only way that makes sense is with fucking biplanes.

 

[Vigormortis]

It shall be done.

Spoiler: Put your faith in me, my subjects

Sigh, I swore I'd never do this again, but...if I must...

Spoiler

 

[Vigormortis]

I have a theory about the WWI setting. I think they've given up on trying to refine the flight system, and the only way that makes sense is with fucking biplanes.

Normally I'd agree, but I think DICE just gave up in general. A look at the gameplay videos from E3 show an alarming number of instances where the planes simply...bump into things and continue on, including the ground.

It honestly feels like the whole WWI aesthetic is just a cop-out gimmick to get people interested. Everything else just feels like...more of the same.

 

[Vigormortis]

I have a theory about the WWI setting. I think they've given up on trying to refine the flight system, and the only way that makes sense is with fucking biplanes.

Normally I'd agree, but I think DICE just gave up in general. A look at the gameplay videos from E3 show an alarming number of instances where the planes simply...bump into things and continue on, including the ground.

It honestly feels like the whole WWI aesthetic is just a cop-out gimmick to get people interested. Everything else just feels like...more of the same.

You're right, and it sucks, because it would take so little to make fans happy. Just... improve incrementally, but you know, IMPROVE IT. That, and stop trying to constantly rob us with DLC, but if you must, stop making it dilute the playerbase!

Fat lot'a chance of that.

DICE, post-Mirror's Edge/Bad Company 2, just feels like a shell of its former self. Like the life, imagination, and creativity was sucked out of them.

I used to adore seeing their logo when booting up a game. Now it's just an omen for 'what creatively bankrupt mess is this going to be today?"

 

[Stewie Plisken]

Oh don't bring up that Phasmal! You'll ruin that argument for everyone. Even though every time women appear as rank and file fodder without being stuffed into fetishwear, no one seems to have a problem with it. Bioshock, Fallout, Mass Effect, Sunless Sea, Assassin's Creed Syndicate, Bloodborne, all of these games had women baddies to kill and no one ever called them sexist. BUT THAT COULD ALL CHANGE! Because if it didn't, people would lose an easy "Take that feminist" argument.

Is everyone here incapable of speaking without strawmaning the 'opposition'? And don't take it personally erttheking, you're only one of many.

What does 'fetishwear' even mean and how is it 'problematic' in itself? Maybe, just MAYBE it has something to do with the fact that the comparatively far fewer female opponent NPCs in the aforementioned games are hostile and essentially gender-swaps of their male counter-parts and that's why nobody even notices them?

And who said Raider uniforms aren't fetishwear, anyway? I'm sure there is at least one person on this planet that jacks off either to them or the Splicers.

 

[Chaos Isaac]

Might as well have female soldiers there. We know the game is gonna be shit for accuracy of how the old war was.