Feminists, we need to talk about fedoras

[Vault101]

Fedoras are part of the "hipster" image, which I think is the area that falls under scrutiny. That mentality of 'Look how much I don't care that my wardrobe doesn't match at all. Can you tell how much I don't care? Cuz I don't!' And by the way I just phrased that you can probably tell where I stand on that issue. Nothing personal against anyone who wears a fedora, which are probably a lot of you.

Now I'm not a hat person at all, so I'm probably not the right person to say anything. I think fedoras belong to 1950's detectives and Indiana Jones, nobody else can pull it off. I think wearing a golf cap is also a bit... silly, which a lot of internet personalities seem to do too.

I never knew it had become part of the "nice guy" image though.

I disagree ...hipsters (or I should say hipster like fashion since its been the in thing fir a while) know what they are doing

Nerds who think it makes them smart or cool do not

 

[Cerebrawl]

I have more of the problem with the reverse, basically the view that anyone who expresses anti-religious sentiments is just a 'euphoric' or 'fedora-wearer'. In a lot of cases (though not all, there undoubtedly can be asshole anti-theists) it feels like thinly veiled anti-intellectualism.

There's a lot of that, I've seen people getting "your fedora is showing" and similar statements just for using somewhat big words.

It's become a staple cyberbullying word.

I've also seen plenty of pictures used for the same effect. One that really pissed me off was when they used a picture of Shane Koyczan for it.

Spoiler: For those who don't know who Shane Koyczan is

 

[Dandres]

I am definitely not hip to the times. This is the first I have heard of this. I like fun hats. Anything other than a ball cap. I have an old Fedora that I attached stuffed rabbit ears on and wear that other and about. My ultimate hat I what to get is a the red hat from the red mage in FFTA. People really have nothing better to do with their time so I like to remember what I was told many years ago. The minority of something will always have a louder voice than the majority.

 

[Tom_green_day]

People are shamed for wearing those hats? I was under the impression that if you don't wear a fedora, a long black trenchcoat, a manbag and have a beard you're not considered a 'man'. I think those three things look stupid on anyone, on their own or together.
Of course my chosen piece of headgear is a balaclava so what do I know.

 

[Deadcyde]

I disagree.

There's a historical context to consider here. Slut-shaming has a very real, very concrete and sad precedent. Shaming women for taking some measure of pride in their sexuality has been a weapon used by troglodytes since forever, and is in many ways tied directly to rape-culture.

Fedora-shaming, on the other hand, is in no ways tied to men's sexuality, and even if it was, the historical context would be different. The shaming would be an act reclaiming, not oppressing. In reality, tho, the fedora, an entirely non-practical garment, unlike the mini-skirt, is derided for its symbolical value and the traditions it represents, not its ties to men's sexuality.

Also, it makes you look like a twat-nugget.


EDIT: Aaaaaand I just saw the picture of you with a fedora. Haha sorryyyyy, you obviously in no way look like a twat-nugget, you look quite lovely. My point was entirely directed at the dudes, promise.

Point form because clearly you're far to biased too digest anything else.
1. So we're just making this fedora shaming thing up like people aren't judging based on what should be an arbitrary piece of clothing? /s
2. It's still tied to the gender. So comes under the auspices of sexism, sexuality notwithstanding.
3. Short skirts being tied to slut shaming is a recent thing. Slut shaming is at least a century old, they are not one and the same thank you. There is your "historical context"
4. Funny how you back pedal once you see a real person attached to some ideal you dislike. Imagine if you did that before you opened your mouth..

Now to everyone else..

It's a fucking hat, stop establishing symbolism with something when it isn't there, especially considering the fedora or trilby is splashed all over pop culture at the moment. As movie bob says, It is stuff, and stuff is not inherently evil nor a symbol of it. FFS

This all comes under judging a book by it's cover.

Otherwise wear what you want. People should mind their own business.

 

[Vault101]

clothing is visual shorthand for what kind of person somone is

Sometimes, maybe.
Only when someone identifies with what he or she wears (which, in my opinion, isn't the way to go, but to each his own).

I didn't say it was always necessarily true, for all I know the guy on the bus in business attire might be a goth in his spare time....but when we make snap judgments about people...to "sort them out" clothing is the first thing we see, and that impression will stick untill we get the chance to confirm or deny it

[quote/]There's a legion of people (mostly men) who don't care about what they wear.[/quote]

which still says something, like those that don't care to some extent but still put on a certain outfit because to them it looks good and acceptable and it makes them fit in....that is more or less most people (well with women it can be different)... or people who [i/]really[/i] don't give a fuck and will where whatever the hell and may or may not get judged for it

 

[Vault101]

"it came from reddit".

the imfamous image....

[spoiler/][img/]http://apathyfactory.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/1202_10151403005166800_556376486_n.jpg[/img][/spoiler]

what annoys me here is that he's completely misusing the word "euphoric"...euphoria is like taking a shot of heroin or something

unless he's sitting at his computer with a glazed expression on his face because being an atheist on the internet is like orgasming or heroin...but I doubt it

 

[Dr. Cakey]

This thread is a conversation happening at the event horizon. The Escapist is precariously balanced between escape and eternity within the darkness, between heaven and hell. If this was, I don't know, an MLP message board, we'd all be wearing fedoras and wondering why the feminazis spit on our most elegant attire. If we were in some actual, physical location, we'd be wondering why anyone would be nuts enough to wear something that awful. But we're not in either of those places, we're balanced perfectly between those two extremes. And it's weird.

You want my personal opinion? Wearing a fedora trilby fedora makes you a worse person. You innately become less good of a human being simply by wearing one. I don't know if this affects women to the same degree it does men. I assume they're immune, because women can make anything guys wear look good, especially hats.

 

[omega 616]

People will judge anything you wear, I think women judge people more on the clothing and men judge the body.

Tap out shirts mean your a douche, mini skirts are for sluts etc

You're going to get judged no matter what, I wear cheap clothes and loads of work clothes (like I used to do voluntary work for a housing company called "arena" and when I stopped working there, I wear coats and t shirts with Arena on). My criteria are "does it fit?" and "is it comfy?" anything else doesn't matter (I do prefer darker colours though).

It's like that saying "the clothes make the man", it's why people don't walk around looking like hobo's, everybody knows clothes project an impression of you. What you choose to wear says something about you, mini skirts say to me "attention whore" if that is right or wrong doesn't matter.

Just stop caring what people think of you.

 

[Vegosiux]

D'awwww, you think misandry is a real thing, don't you?

Anything that exists is "a real thing", really, because that's kind of sort of what "real" means and all.

I would very much like to see you address Deadcyde's points, though, especially point #2 about slut shaming.

And I, too, found it rather funny how you went for a no-holds-barred-beat-down on that piece of clothing until you saw one particular picture, at which point it looked like you were suddenly fawning over it. It really just made it look as if what you wrote in your post up to that point actually wasn't your own opinion, but more like an opinion you figured would, for the lack of a better expression, give you more likes.

I mean, if you make an absolute statement, then make an exception to it because of one picture, I'd not say making an absolute statement was a good idea.

 

[Eamar]

D'awwww, you think misandry is a real thing, don't you?

Condescension really doesn't help anyone, particularly when the person you're being condescending to has raised some perfectly reasonable points/questions. If you disagree with them, explain why in a calm, reasonable manner. Not everyone who disagrees with you in a feminism debate is "the enemy" or a rabid, lost cause MRA.

Secondly, sexism against men certainly does exist, and it doesn't harm my standing as a feminist to admit as much. It's like racism again white people: certainly not as rampant as misogyny/racism against POC, and usually on an individual rather than an institutional or societal level, but it exists to a certain extent.

Third, I'll agree with the others who've commented on your reaction to my photo. Gotta admit, I laughed. "I'm just talking about the dudes, honest"? Ok then, what about my dad, who I've already mentioned in this thread as my inspiration for wearing a fedora? He's a fifty-something doctor who rocks a whole series of fedoras and straw Panama hats as his signature look. Maybe you just meant younger dudes then? I have a friend who's a pretty sharp-dressed man with a thing for vintage fashion (he's infinitely more into fashion than I am - yay for role reversal ). When he wears a fedora he does it the old-fashioned way, with a suit. He looks great, in no way sleazy or socially awkward. Just overweight, bearded gamers who match their trilbies with jeans and a graphic t-shirt? Well, we're getting incredibly specific here but hell, I've known a few guys who match that description and they were in no way misogynistic.

If you think fedoras make people look like twats that's entirely your call, and please don't feel obliged to make an exception for me just because it'd be a bit awkward otherwise. I think people who wear trainers outside the gym look silly, but that doesn't mean I can judge their personalities or beliefs. Plus I used to have long, bright blue hair, so what do I know?

 

[Riot3000]

Yeah it came from reddit and reddit can't let it go. I mean it went back to full frontal jabs at fat people, expecting everyman to dress in dockers and collared or else, ladies with first world dating problems being taking as "serious" and don't get me started on that unpopular opinion puffin. Funny 4chan where these apparent "fedora" guys reside is a better spot than reddit.

I disagree.

There's a historical context to consider here. Slut-shaming has a very real, very concrete and sad precedent. Shaming women for taking some measure of pride in their sexuality has been a weapon used by troglodytes since forever, and is in many ways tied directly to rape-culture.

Fedora-shaming, on the other hand, is in no ways tied to men's sexuality, and even if it was, the historical context would be different. The shaming would be an act reclaiming, not oppressing. In reality, tho, the fedora, an entirely non-practical garment, unlike the mini-skirt, is derided for its symbolical value and the traditions it represents, not its ties to men's sexuality.

Also, it makes you look like a twat-nugget.


EDIT: Aaaaaand I just saw the picture of you with a fedora. Haha sorryyyyy, you obviously in no way look like a twat-nugget, you look quite lovely. My point was entirely directed at the dudes, promise.

Point form because clearly you're far to biased too digest anything else.
1. So we're just making this fedora shaming thing up like people aren't judging based on what should be an arbitrary piece of clothing? /s
2. It's still tied to the gender. So comes under the auspices of sexism, sexuality notwithstanding.
3. Short skirts being tied to slut shaming is a recent thing. Slut shaming is at least a century old, they are not one and the same thank you. There is your "historical context"
4. Funny how you back pedal once you see a real person attached to some ideal you dislike. Imagine if you did that before you opened your mouth..

Now to everyone else..

It's a fucking hat, stop establishing symbolism with something when it isn't there, especially considering the fedora or trilby is splashed all over pop culture at the moment. As movie bob says, It is stuff, and stuff is not inherently evil nor a symbol of it. FFS

This all comes under judging a book by it's cover.

Otherwise wear what you want. People should mind their own business.

I am with Deadcyde its a hat I mean its people are going out their way to attach some stigma and hate to it. It actually seems more en vogue to mock fedoras and all those stereotypes as some cheap sense of superiority which is ironic considering where all this apparent "hate" came from. Stay classy internet.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

D'awwww, you think misandry is a real thing, don't you?

Oh oh! I know how to respond to this! .../clears throat...

You not believing Misandry is real is proof that Misandry is real.

Bam! Nailed it! I learned that from Feminism 101.

 

[MatsVS]

Condescension really doesn't help anyone, particularly when the person you're being condescending to has raised some perfectly reasonable points/questions. If you disagree with them, explain why in a calm, reasonable manner. Not everyone who disagrees with you in a feminism debate is "the enemy" or a rabid, lost cause MRA.

Secondly, sexism against men certainly does exist, and it doesn't harm my standing as a feminist to admit as much. It's like racism again white people: certainly not as rampant as misogyny/racism against POC, and usually on an individual rather than an institutional or societal level, but it exists to a certain extent.

Third, I'll agree with the others who've commented on your reaction to my photo. Gotta admit, I laughed. "I'm just talking about the dudes, honest"? Ok then, what about my dad, who I've already mentioned in this thread as my inspiration for wearing a fedora? He's a fifty-something doctor who rocks a whole series of fedoras and straw Panama hats as his signature look. Maybe you just meant younger dudes then? I have a friend who's a pretty sharp-dressed man with a thing for vintage fashion (he's infinitely more into fashion than I am - yay for role reversal ). When he wears a fedora he does it the old-fashioned way, with a suit. He looks great, in no way sleazy or socially awkward. Just overweight, bearded gamers who match their trilbies with jeans and a graphic t-shirt? Well, we're getting incredibly specific here but hell, I've known a few guys who match that description and they were in no way misogynistic.

If you think fedoras make people look like twats that's entirely your call, and please don't feel obliged to make an exception for me just because it'd be a bit awkward otherwise. I think people who wear trainers outside the gym look silly, but that doesn't mean I can judge their personalities or beliefs. Plus I used to have long, bright blue hair, so what do I know?

Excuse me? I'm the condescending one, when he opened his post like this: "Point form because clearly you're far to biased too digest anything else.", and closed it like this: "Imagine if you did that before you opened your mouth.." ? Yeah, that's a fertile soil for a good debate right there. :\ Sometimes, valid points are ignored if they're given by someone obviously not arguing in good faith.

That said, the point made against my original post seems to imply that shaming women for wearing mini-skirts somehow differs from slut-shaming in a broader sense, and I am not sure I understand why that would be the case.

I don't think sexism against men is in any way a relevant issue in a broader societal sense, just as I don't believe racism against white people is a thing at all. You can be bigoted and prejudiced against white people, but for as long as we remain the majority power, trying to claim that "reverse racism" is an actual thing only undermines the actual issues POC have to deal with every day. Which of course mirrors how men are trying usurp the gender debate by claiming that "reverse sexism", or "misandry", is a real thing. It's a diversionary tactic.

Well, I'm sorry my reaction to your photo did not convince you of the intentions of my original post. I was under the impression that fedora-shaming was a predominately male "problem", so assuming that I was in fact talking about dudes hardly seems like a stretch to me. Eh, it's not really important. As for your dad, I don't really think older gentlemen are relevant to the issue, as they're not influencing the zeitgeist in the same way budding generations do. Why we need to pin-point further when a fedora is or is not worthy of mockery seems like a futile exercise to me. It is what it is and it represents what it represents.

Lastly, and forgive me if I'm wrong here, but when we're judging people for wearing a fedora, we're not really taking it to the point where we're assuming they're bad people, are we? I mean, let's not exaggerate the dimension of the phenomena here. This is a case of pointing out a piece of garment that has unfortunate implications

I would very much like to see you address Deadcyde's points, though, especially point #2 about slut shaming.

And I, too, found it rather funny how you went for a no-holds-barred-beat-down on that piece of clothing until you saw one particular picture, at which point it looked like you were suddenly fawning over it. It really just made it look as if what you wrote in your post up to that point actually wasn't your own opinion, but more like an opinion you figured would, for the lack of a better expression, give you more likes.

I mean, if you make an absolute statement, then make an exception to it because of one picture, I'd not say making an absolute statement was a good idea.

Wait, point #2 or #3?

As for the "fawning" and "likes"... Not really sure what to make of that. What I said was quite true, but attaching further significance to that seems childish.

 

[Eamar]

Excuse me? I'm the condescending one, when he opened his post like this: "Point form because clearly you're far to biased too digest anything else.", and closed it like this: "Imagine if you did that before you opened your mouth.." ? Yeah, that's a fertile soil for a good debate right there. :\ Sometimes, valid points are ignored if they're given by someone obviously not arguing in good faith.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and he at least tried to engage with your points, whereas you went straight to making accusations that had nothing to do with his.

I don't think sexism against men is in any way a relevant issue in a broader societal sense, just as I don't believe racism against white people is a thing at all.

I specifically said those things don't exist on anything like the same scale as "regular" sexism and racism, but refusing to address them at all just comes off as dickish. It doesn't hurt you to admit that some people on "our" side are less than perfect too.

"reverse racism" ... "reverse sexism"

Ok, this really bugs me. Racism means discriminating against someone because of their race. Sexism means discriminating against someone because of their sex. They are not exclusive to specific races or sexes/genders, nor are they required to be on a societal scale. Prejudice against white people or men isn't "reverse" anything, it's straight up racism or sexism.

undermines the actual issues POC have to deal with every day.

How? Admitting that other people have problems doesn't take away from your own problems, so long as you're keeping things in perspective (which admittedly not everyone does). It's not a freakin' competition.

Which of course mirrors how men are trying usurp the gender debate by claiming that "reverse sexism", or "misandry", is a real thing. It's a diversionary tactic.

Please explain to me how this is not misandry: http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

This person believes that every time a man inserts his penis into a vagina, regardless of context and consent, it is rape. She is calling all straight, non-virginal men rapists. And this isn't just one crazy person on the internet - there are entire (thankfully minor) branches of radical feminism built around this sort of thinking, and they're the ones who are particularly damaging to feminism as a whole. The rest of us can deny this sort of thing all we want, but it's only going to make us look dishonest and like we're somehow justifying those stances. Better to admit its existence and assert our differences than attempt to sweep the whole thing under the rug and lose our credibility.

Lastly, and forgive me if I'm wrong here, but when we're judging people for wearing a fedora, we're not really taking it to the point where we're assuming they're bad people, are we?

That's precisely what my OP was talking about. As I've said several times, I have witnessed people seriously accusing others of misogyny purely on the grounds that they wear this hat, and not just on the internet either.

 

[marioandsonic]

Yeah, I never got the whole "fedora" meme either. Especially now, since people on other message boards try to link it to autism or atheism, which makes no fucking sense. How are any of those things related?

EDIT: Also, I'm glad I don't wear hats in general, lol.

 

[MatsVS]

Two wrongs don't make a right, and he at least tried to engage with your points, whereas you went straight to making accusations that had nothing to do with his.

I don't make a habit of debating people indiscriminately, no, but I should've ignored rather than antagonized, 'tis true. I apologize for bringing disharmony to your thread, if not for failing to engage. (I am... biased towards my own opinion? Mmm, ok, I guess.)

I specifically said those things don't exist on anything like the same scale as "regular" sexism and racism, but refusing to address them at all just comes off as dickish. It doesn't hurt you to admit that some people on "our" side are less than perfect too.

I haven't denied that people on our side can be less than perfect, tho, have I? And it's scale, exactly, that's the main factor when we're talking about racism. This addresses your points below too, I hope. What makes racism insidious in the first place is that it's institutional and systemic. When you remove that aspect of it, it's just... a person being a dick. So what? The struggle against racism and sexism is not about people's personal likes or dislikes, that's immaterial, it's about dealing with systems of oppression. If we start treating every anecdote about a white person getting the short end of the stick, we'll only dilute the issue. That's what I meant when I called it a diversionary tactic.

Oh, I guess I should clarify that I am a intersectional feminist of the Marxist school of thought. If that's an ideology you fundamentally disagree with, that would go a long way in explaining our differences of opinion here.

Ok, this really bugs me. Racism means discriminating against someone because of their race. Sexism means discriminating against someone because of their sex. They are not exclusive to specific races or sexes/genders, nor are they required to be on a societal scale. Prejudice against white people or men isn't "reverse" anything, it's straight up racism or sexism.

undermines the actual issues POC have to deal with every day.

How? Admitting that other people have problems doesn't take away from your own problems, so long as you're keeping things in perspective (which admittedly not everyone does). It's not a freakin' competition.

Which of course mirrors how men are trying usurp the gender debate by claiming that "reverse sexism", or "misandry", is a real thing. It's a diversionary tactic.

Please explain to me how this is not misandry: http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

This person believes that every time a man inserts his penis into a vagina, regardless of context and consent, it is rape. She is calling all straight, non-virginal men rapists. And this isn't just one crazy person on the internet - there are entire (thankfully minor) branches of radical feminism built around this sort of thinking, and they're the ones who are particularly damaging to feminism as a whole. The rest of us can deny this sort of thing all we want, but it's only going to make us look dishonest and like we're somehow justifying those stances. Better to admit its existence and assert our differences than attempt to sweep the whole thing under the rug and lose our credibility.

You're right, that's insidious as fuck, but there's many feminists I disagree with. For instance, there's a school of thought that preaches that all cultural appropriation by white people is inherently the same as blackface. Maybe you read the articles about white belly dancers on Salon.com? Or Requires Only That You Hate's view on fantasy literature? Weird stuff for sure, but I don't think that outliers like this should be allowed to dictate the terms of the broader debate.

Though that said, it is certainly not our place to try and silence them.

Lastly, and forgive me if I'm wrong here, but when we're judging people for wearing a fedora, we're not really taking it to the point where we're assuming they're bad people, are we?

That's precisely what my OP was talking about. As I've said several times, I have witnessed people seriously accusing others of misogyny purely on the grounds that they wear this hat, and not just on the internet either.

My apologies, I thought your OP (this line, specifically: "whereby people are judged or mocked for wearing said headgear, actively discouraged from purchasing or wearing them, or, in the best case scenario, have to qualify and defend their choice of hat.") was about general mocking of the fedora, and pointing out its unfortunate associations, not liking people who wear it to misogynists.

Umm, I hope I've clarified my stance a little here, or have I left something out?

 

[Deadcyde]

I haven't denied that people on our side

Our side? People are people, there are no sides.

The reason I called you biased was because your first post was condescending and you favoured one opinion (short skirt judging is degrading) over another (fedora/trilby judging is degrading)

This is a problem with feminism. (Sure, there's radfems and what not, but the bigoted hate is generally a minority.)

The idea of feminism is the achieve female equality or gender equality or even equality as a whole. Now some people dispute feminism based simply on why don't they call themselves egalitarians if they actually care about equality, but that's semantics. However they do tend to point out one issue that even the title feminism seems to point to, feminists generally ignore one issue in favour of another. This most often manifests in focusing on women's issues rather then anyone else's. Now I'm not disputing that women's issues are worse and do require some focus, but not to the exclusion of all other genders issues.

Basically the point is to achieve equality, everyone must be brought up to the same level, never diminished, and each issue has a bearing on all of the other issues. That's half the reason why even reasonable men seem to be so resistant; because it alienates them by ignoring their issues. You'll notice I said "feminists generally" earlier, that's because there is exceptions to the rule. There are feminists who don't focus on issues to the exclusions of others, just like there is MRA's who's only concern is to do the same, focus on both men and women's issues and simply exist to remind the world that men have issues too.

But that being said, everyone here is at least willing to discuss it at least. Rather then simply hurl insults and let their passions rule their reason, and that... that is a great thing.

EDIT: spelling and some punctuation.