Final Fantasy X ruined Final Fantasy (and Square)

[RobfromtheGulag]

I'm bored so I'll dredge up a reply to this laundry list.

PROS:

* Pretty cutscenes: yep, though perhaps more pointless than, say, ff8s.
* Great Graphics for the PS2: it is their strong point.
* Amazing sound design: That one track in the abandoned spirit town, zanarheim or w/e was good I thought.
* Engaging and Interesting Combat System: Returning to turn based combat was not a pro in my book. Though the mind numbing and later pointless rock paper scissors aspect started off as entertaining.
* Auron is awesome: Yea he was cool. This was offset by a distinct lack of cg, or even in-game cutscene moments were he DID anything. What was his biggest accomplishment, staring down that flying lizard in the coliseum?
* Kimahri is alright, too: I think he was a combination of the necessary 'cute' character and a rep for all the furry fans.
* Sin is kind of cool: a blob that sometimes morphs into a whale? Typical ff penultimate enemy. Formless, large, ambiguous, deity.

CONS:

* Terrible Characters: I hate to mention this because when I started gaming I loved Locke and Cloud to death, but Yahtzee's brought up several times and I agree that ALL ff characters are terrible. FFX was just one of the first to not have a cool protagonist. Which jibed pretty well with the Japanese audience because they're into that touchy-feely hero rather than the John Rambo style guys [Cloud, Squall (until the end when he's whipped)]. Up until about FF6 the graphics prevented real character design. FF6 had such a crowd that you couldn't help but like some of them. FF7 and 8 were successful in the US for aforementioned reasons, and 9 had a pretty girly hero too, but since it's the last ff on psx no one mentions it, similar to ffxii.

* Terrible Dialogue and Writing: They all had terrible dialogue and writing. This one just happened to me more touchy-feely.
* Terrible Voice Acting: It may have been one of the worst, but it was also one of the first with near full voice acting. That was big when it came out. And who knows, maybe similar to anime the japanese version sounded better.
* Ridiculous Character Design: They all have this, as I said before. It's a core principle of JRPGs. Their outlandish fashion sense is part of what makes these games a fantasy, and attractive to us.
* Lack of Exploration: yep. But then I think it was Shamus who talked about how hard it would be for a designer to make a full explorable 3d world of the magnitude ff's usually offer on modern technology (it'd be hard, I think, was his message). I agree they should do it anyway, but reality has to bite sometime.
* Blitzball: FF7 had a bunch of sketchy minigames that were more akin to what we'd expect. The only one I ever spent any real time on was the snowboard game, and there are still tons of balloons I have no idea how they got. I got top scores in all of the races in the arcade eventually, but that's probably because I was younger and couldn't afford any other real games.
People dislike Blitzball and I was right at the head of the mob for a long time ranting about how bad it was. Then, similar to FF7, I just got really bored one day and started playing it. Once you level your guys up it's pretty fun. I never got the higher end techniques, but my team were all ~lv 150 and won every match. Rewards are helpful of course, as you stated FF8 was fun AND purposeful, FF9's card game was neither. (Incidentally the card game in Xenosaga took up more of my time than the actual game itself. And that was a long game).

-As I see it, the FF games can be categorized to some degree into 2 phases.
I: 1-5/6, were set in a medieval kind of world, as we would expect a classic RPG to be, because they based them initially off of DnD.
II: After 7 came out and is to this day the biggest hit in the US, if not Japan, they figured the market for games set in the near future with protagonists only semi different from someone a Japanese teen could identify with, they set it as the new model. This coincidentally coincided with the graphics feasibility change, so we didn't get to see much in the order of good graphics in a medieval setting. But if you wanted to you could probably see that in Lineage.

If you want to talk about ruining an image, I'd point to Kingdom Hearts. Nothing killed my FF favorites faster than seeing them set alongside Donald Duck and Goofy.

 

[loc978]

I disagree. It all went down the tubes with 7.

That's certainly where it started going downhill. 7 was still a good game, but it changed the focus and tone of the series completely... which was taken to extremes in subsequent games, sadly.

 

[squeekenator]

Again, what you're saying here is that "it is perfectly reasonable for Tidus to be a whiny, annoying brat. You would be just as whiny and annoying in the same situation". I don't dispute that. You're not refuting the problems I have with Tidus, you're justifying them as reasonable reactions to his circumstances. He may be reacting to the situation exactly as I would, but I would make a really fucking terrible RPG protagonist. I prefer heroes that rise to the occasion and become heroic, not heroes that act like I did when I was 13.

But he's not being whiny. Being a whiny brat would be complaining constantly even though there was nothing to complain about, blowing everything out of proportion and generally being a drama queen. Tidus does none of that. Yes, he does sometimes complain, but that doesn't make him whiny. I have sometimes played cricket, but that doesn't make me a cricketer. And it's not like he spends the whole game complaining and moping, either. Since I'm bored and also have too much spare time, I'll do a brief rundown of a few things he does. This is just from memory, mind you, there's bound to be things I'm missing.

Besaid Island - "So the summoner might be in mortal danger, and you're all just going to sit around outside because it's against the rules to help out? You're a bunch of pussies. I'm going in."
Besaid/Kilika/Luca - Optimistic and almost dangerously overconfident about anything related to Blitzball.
Mi'ihen Highroad - More dangerous overconfidence as he refuses to admit that Auron might be better at killing the armoured moles than he is. Also, "some giant and powerful fiend keeps eating chocobos? Well, let's go kill it! It's the right thing to do."
Operation Mi'ihen - Transforms into the physical embodiment of self-destructive rage and charges after the most powerful creature in existance, because it was running away from him.
Macalania Temple - Remains relentlessly optimistic even after they've killed Seymour, insisting that all they need to do is show everyone Jyscal's sphere and they'll be fine.
Summoner's Sanctum - The first of many huge plot twists is revealed, and Tidus promptly yells and rages at everyone rather than crying in a corner.
Airship - "Yuna's being held captive in the most heavily defended place in Spira? Sweet, let's go!"
Highbridge - "You talk too much, Seymour." He's more than willing to do nothing but run around killing stuff and is bored by dramatic monologues.
Mount Gagazet - Discovers that completing his quest will cause him to cease to exist, but does so anyway out of pure selflessness.

I'm not writing a dissertation on quantam mechanics, I'm writing an opinion on a forum. It's objective and irrational by definition. I pointed out what I didn't like and why I didn't like it, is there some 3rd dimension to an opinion piece that I'm unaware of? I felt directly quoting bad lines of dialogue or poorly written scenes was an unnecessary step here.

Also I do have a lot of free time, but I am technically getting paid right now so I'm okay with wasting it here. Besides, storytelling in video games is an important topic to me and I enjoy discussing it.

Since I've still got plenty of time to burn, I'll just go over a couple of things.

YOUR PROS
Kimarhi is alright, too - No he isn't, he's the most boring character I've ever seen. He could have been replaced with a cardboard cutout of a giant blue Furbie and nothing would have changed. He isn't even trying to prove himself and regain his honour, he just has some inexplicable attachment to Yuna.

YOUR CONS
Terrible Characters - Well, I've already gone over Tidus, but one other thing that's really bugged me is your impression of Yuna. You're saying that someone who has decided, against the will of her closest companions (Lulu and Wakka both tried to convince her to not become a summoner), to go on a danger-fraught journey and eventually sacrifice her own life is a submissive dormat? And let's not forget the scene once you reach Gagzet. Even after you've been branded traitors, she's still willing to die in order to bring happiness to people who would kill her on sight. And she was willing to marry Seymour in an attempt to use her womanly wiles to change his evil ways, and then later carries on with the marriage charade so she can send him. She's not a wet blanket, she's a single-minded martyr willing to give her dignity and life in order to bring happiness to the people and justice to those who deserve it.

As for the characters being unoriginal, let's not forget that Tropes Are Not Bad [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools?from=Main.TropesAreNotBad]. Every original idea has already been done. Lulu may have been rather sexualised, with abnormally large breasts and a habit of displaying them in her victory pose, but she's not the first Final Fantasy character to have those traits (Tifa is a rather obvious one), so FFX isn't exactly where the series went downhill. And Rikku a hyperactive ditz? She may be somewhat immature, but she's not ditzy. On the contrary, she's determined to stop Yuna from completing her pilgrimage, and risks her life travelling with Yuna in the hope that she can somehow sabotage or prevent the Final Summoning.

Terrible Dialogue and Writing - Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. And you're clearly too close-minded to let anyone convince you otherwise, as you show by challenging anyone to find good dialogue, which you will then shoot down and refuse to give any credit to.

Terrible Voice Acting - Again, more opinions. I didn't have a problem with it. At the time I got it, I was too busy being impressed that it had voice acting at all.

The Plot - So you can't explain the plot of a 25+ hour story-driven game in a single sentence. Good. If you could, then what the crap where Square doing for those however many hours of gameplay? You seem to be complaining that the game consists of more than just random encounters. I personally would have been rather disappointed if the plot boiled down to 'bad guy is bad, good guys are good, go kill stuff', which seems to be what you want.

Ridiculous Character Design - Funny-looking characters? In a JRPG? Good lord. I fear I must go and have a lie down in order to recover from the shock.

Lack of Exploration/Linearity - I suppose that's a bad thing if you bought a completely linear game in the hopes that it would contain lots of exploration. These complaints are no more valid than being upset because it doesn't have enough RTS elements.

Blitzball - There's one forced game, and it lasts about ten minutes, including the cutscenes before and afterwards. Meh.

 

[AngelicSven]

Tidus was a better main character than Cloud, Squall, and Vaan combined.

I like the odd illusionment of emo Cloud, because really all he did in the game was question himself from time to time. Something that almost everyone does at one point in their life. Y'know, He's doubting himself about finding a seemingly unkillable soldier that he once thought as a friend, that burnt his home down and kills his prior love interest, stopping a meteor summoned by said soldier, occasionally being mind-controlled by said soldier, watching his best friend die, being slowly poisoned by the chemical he got injected with when in the military, and finding out he's an military experiment with no real memories. The self-doubt thing is just part of his personality, not that he's gonna cry at the drop of a hat, and with all this self-doubt he still gets up and faces the challenges.

And from all that, he's like "Eh, I don't know if I can do this." from time even though he can make jokes and smart-ass remarks, be in a play, continuously tease his comrades (Hell, right before Sephiroth, he and Cid have a funny back and forth), and apparently raises chocobos and plays arcade games. However, all people remember is 'Man, Isn't Cloud emo? He's not sure of himself."
I pretty much say this not because I disagree with FF7 being the beginning downhill point, i vastly agree, I say this because aside of maybe Zidane, Cloud has probably the best range of character in the FF series.

Now, in AC, it was a little overblown and emo.

OT - I've heard many say FF10 is their favorite of the franchise, I cannot see why myself as I didn't find it to be end all-be all, especially with the great FF9 as the last one.

 

[Odbarc]

My stand on the Final Fantasy series;

FF2 is linear too. So much so that I might replay it once a decade (beginning to end.)
FF3(6) is my favorite game and I play it beginning to end on average once a year. I'm even modding it for personal enjoyment.
FF7 was a 3D version of it's predecessor and added just the right amount of new stuff without taking away anything fun. But upon replays, I find it's highly ineffective to use mana on anything except cure-all, regen-all and spamming [Fight]. Replay value drops because of this to about once a decade.
FF8 I hated at first, liked a little bit, got into and then I'll never play it again due to massive grinding [Draw] and switching around magic collected to new characters over and over again. As such, every character is exactly the same thing except for the low-hp limit breaks.
FF9 I liked too, I replayed it many times but I find myself enjoying it less every time.
FFT is an excellent game. Much replayability but once you get Blade Grasp, game-over, you win. There are many OP skills or classes that game-over-win you through the game.
FF10, played it once, liked it. If your into good stories, FF isn't really the series for you. Cut-scenes galore isn't glorious like you might think. Skip, skip, skip, skip, skip. Urgh.

Never played a FF-mmo, never finished FF-Vaan. The characters are getting very gay looking, I'll admit. Where's the medieval looking characters like Cecil, Kain or Cyan? Fan service is anti-service in disguise. If I wanted to look at big tits, I'd google that.

 

[KarumaK]

SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Realise that just because it's called Final Fantasy doesn't mean it has to be exactly the same as the one before it.

Seriously, if they changed the name we wouldn't have any of this bullshit and you absolute idiots who call yourself fans wouldn't feel the need to spout this kind of crap.

This annoys me to no end.

Is your argument really that people couldn't complain that a sequel wasn't like it's prequel if it wasn't a sequel?

You should take a rest...

Well yeah, I guess that is my argument, because these games are really connected by name only there is nothing else, if they weren't connected by name then they wouldn't be hated as much.

Problem is that is exactly why there's hate, people get the sequel because they liked the prequel. If those two don't match up in a way the expected they're not gonna be happy.

But your argument it in fact correct.

 

[AcacianLeaves]

Tidus was a better main character than Cloud, Squall, and Vaan combined.

There are words for how I feel about this sentence but if I said them I could never use my voice around my mother again.

SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Realise that just because it's called Final Fantasy doesn't mean it has to be exactly the same as the one before it.

Seriously, if they changed the name we wouldn't have any of this bullshit and you absolute idiots who call yourself fans wouldn't feel the need to spout this kind of crap.

This annoys me to no end.

Is your argument really that people couldn't complain that a sequel wasn't like it's prequel if it wasn't a sequel?

You should take a rest...

Well yeah, I guess that is my argument, because these games are really connected by name only there is nothing else, if they weren't connected by name then they wouldn't be hated as much.

That is 100% untrue, which is why I didn't feel it needed a response. Also, personal attacks tend to make my eyes glaze over.

Are you seriously arguing that there are no thematic similarities between any of the Final Fantasy titles? Let's ignore Chocobos, Moogles, and the fact that they all utilize the same magic system. They have the same basic mythology that supports that magic system (Summons aren't just a gameplay device, they are the core plot element in many Final Fantasy games). Most games follow the theme of nature and spirits vs. technology and machines. Up until FFX they all contained explorable overworld maps. Up until FFXI they all had turn-based party combat. The class system is present in most games - thief, white mage, black mage, summoner, etc. They contain airships. They have characters named Biggs and Wedge. There are usually optional bosses that are more difficult than the actual end-game bosses.

Jesus man have you even played more than one Final Fantasy game?

 

[AcacianLeaves]

The story, to me, was original and very interesting compared to most games these days in which the sole objective is 'shoot the bad guys'. Tidus's whole world was obliterated around him and he was sent 1000 years into the future where his father is ending the lives of thousands in a monstrous form. I cant say Ive seen it done before! And how the game makes you feel like Tidus is unreal. We know nothing of Spira and are only told little by little about the world as does Tidus. We feel new and alien to it all. The plot twists, like finding out Yuna's fate, had me gaping and the tense moments, such as facing Yunalesca, had me in suspense. Operation Mi'hen had me excited but then sad. As well as that, the story deals with so many other themes like racism/sectarianism - when Wakka found out Rikku was Al Bhed - Tidus: You two have gotten along fine until now!

I gotta say, I certainly can't fault FFX for not having an original plot. And it is true that FFX was one of the first JRPGs to handle exposition well. It's just that for me, the world was so original that it didn't feel believable at all. The fayth, the Summoner, the fact that dead people don't die unless 'sent', the stylized design of everything, Blitzball, what Sin actually was, etc. It's all very poorly explained and made me feel like the world lacked credibility. I know it's fantasy, but I feel very strongly that when you make a fantasy world it helps the fantasy if that world is credible and well explained.

Then the characters. Tidus was a great main character since he was happy go-lucky (which I admire particularly in his situation) and he doesnt hesitate to question the conventions of the normal. If he hadnt of washed up on Besaid then nothing would have changed.

I hate having to criticize the a rare square character that wasn't a brooding emo, but I still feel like he was a brat. He doesn't just 'question conventions', he spits in the faces of Spira's sacred customs. That would be like if I went to Japan and stomped around Buddhist temples wearing muddy combat boots.

Yuna is also an incredible character for me since even though she is quiet and apologetic, she is determined to do what she must. She inspires those around her and is so ready to sacrifice herself. It seems like utter tragedy that someone like that is off to her death, while the world is looking forward to that and her friends have accepted it.

I just wish they fleshed out her reasons more. Why is she so ready to sacrifice herself? Why is she so willing to give up everything for a society that just expects her to make that sacrifice? I just think it's a weirdly subservient premise for a female character, especially given the problems that Japanese culture has with sexism.

Rikku is there for comic relief but also to add to the Al Bhed parts of the story, such as the destruction of the Al Bhed home.

The Al Bhed are actually my favorite part of the Spira setting. I really wish they played her more for that rather than the kooky comic relief. I feel like they wasted a good opportunity by turning Rikku into this weird Loli fantasy.

I'll admit Lulu doesnt add a lot but she is needed for a realistic voice of reason, such as when she talked to Wakka outside Kilika temple about his brother being dead. And eye candy? Fan service? Are you serious? She's hardly wearing anything revealing whatsoever!

Please don't make me (boobs)explain to you why (knockers)Lulu is designed (jugs)with fan service in mind(STONKING GREAT TITS).

I'll admit that Rikku's clothes are a little but its not like the camera constantly focuses on her!

As Spoony points out, the camera has a very disturbing tendency to find ways to focus on people's asses - Rikku's in particular. Also, look at the cutscene of Rikku again and tell me that isn't disturbingly sexual for a 15 year old?

Auron is the wise one who is also undeniably badass.

Word. If he was the main character I'd be singing this game's praises from the rooftops.

By the way did you see the Auron cosplay on this week's issue? That's some epic shit.

Anyway thanks for your response.

 

[Eri]

Lol. As far as I'm concerned 10 was easily top 3 best. 7? Crap. 9? Crap.

 

[Infernai]

I'm among that small minority on this board that actually liked Final Fantasy 7 alot (However, i'll avoid getting into that or start a flame war or i might derail the thread).

While i do agree Tidus is a horrid character, i actually didn't mind the rest of the main cast to much. Yuna was atleast tolerable, and everyone else had varying cool levels.

The final fantasy i DO think is the worst ever made is 12. Say what you will about Tidus, but I'd personally rather play another game as him then FUCKING VAAN OR PANELLO! GRRR!..some of the other cast members were alright though

Thirteen is just boring to me, not in any way terrible but it didn't really endear itself to me either.

So yeah.

 

[Veldt Falsetto]

Tidus was a better main character than Cloud, Squall, and Vaan combined.

There are words for how I feel about this sentence but if I said them I could never use my voice around my mother again.

SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Realise that just because it's called Final Fantasy doesn't mean it has to be exactly the same as the one before it.

Seriously, if they changed the name we wouldn't have any of this bullshit and you absolute idiots who call yourself fans wouldn't feel the need to spout this kind of crap.

This annoys me to no end.

Is your argument really that people couldn't complain that a sequel wasn't like it's prequel if it wasn't a sequel?

You should take a rest...

Well yeah, I guess that is my argument, because these games are really connected by name only there is nothing else, if they weren't connected by name then they wouldn't be hated as much.

That is 100% untrue, which is why I didn't feel it needed a response. Also, personal attacks tend to make my eyes glaze over.

Are you seriously arguing that there are no thematic similarities between any of the Final Fantasy titles? Let's ignore Chocobos, Moogles, and the fact that they all utilize the same magic system. They have the same basic mythology that supports that magic system (Summons aren't just a gameplay device, they are the core plot element in many Final Fantasy games). Most games follow the theme of nature and spirits vs. technology and machines. Up until FFX they all contained explorable overworld maps. Up until FFXI they all had turn-based party combat. The class system is present in most games - thief, white mage, black mage, summoner, etc. They contain airships. They have characters named Biggs and Wedge. There are usually optional bosses that are more difficult than the actual end-game bosses.


Right but what I meant in that regard is that gameplay-wise they are all pretty much completely different games since 7 onwards. The only time the games have had even similar gameplay are 4 - 6. So what a few animals and character names turn up more often than not. There are perhaps 3 or 4 main titles that follow the same mythology and a few more spin off titles, these are the ones about crystals, 2, 4, 6 and onwards don't have anything of the sort. There are plenty of games around that use the same magic system, are they too Final Fantasy games? The Nature and Technology vs Machines isn't really present in that many games either, perhaps 6, 7, 1 and 13, the rest have nothing like that. Most RPGs had overworld maps, a lot still do, these again are genre conventions, not one for a particular series. No ATB is not turn based, ATB was introduced in 4 and has been present pretty much in every game since except 10, even variations have been in 12 and 13, a lot of other games are turnbased though. The class system, again, is a genre convention, in addition, Final Fantasy has always been trying to break out of these, at least the generic ones anyway, 2 didn't have classes, neither did 4 and 6 - 10 and 12 and cmon, viking? Scholar? These aren't genric JRPG classes like White Mage Fighter etc. Airships AGAIN are a genre convention and a handy one at that, how else would you easily traverse the entire game world again (besides X has an airship). Not every FF has Biggs and Wedge 6, 7, 8, 10 and 12, also games other than FF have them in, Chrono Trigger anyone. And as I tend to repeat myself optional bosses more powerful than the end boss are a GENRE CONVENTION, in almost every JRPG.

So, yes, my argument IS valid, because each Final Fantasy game is different, I understand people who started with 7 will be like, ooohhh boo hoo, 8 onwards are rubbish, they are nothing like the original, they suck waaaaa, but if they were by a different name, people wouldn't care, guaranteed. People who started from 1 or went back and experienced them all are used to this change and therefore know what to expect with a new FF game, that thing is change, so much so that if it were by any different name, no one would tell, it'd just be Square Enix fan service and secret fun bits that hardcore SE fans will see and go oh yeah, that's cool.

So...let me ask you, have you played any other JRPG? Have you played every Final Fantasy?

 

[Kieren Bonner]

i have to say that actually final fantasy x is my favorite of all the games even over number viii which until i played number x correctly was my favourite...

i played x when it first came out and couldnt get into it, it was only nearly 8 later that i sat down and played it and after 200 hours of solid gameplay realised that square enix will never make another game as good as this one....

look at final fantasy 13 and 13-2 what the flying fuck are they going on about that is a story so incomprehensible it sickens me....

but then again i thought that about number x and it was only as i got bored of the shitty current gen of games bein the 360 that i plated x again on my ps2, and really liked it, so maybe when the 720 (who knows maybe microsft wont be soo obvious but we can never know eh?) becomes boring for me will i pick up my old 360 and try again....

that being said i love number 10 so much i played thru the ever so boring number x-2 just to find out the ending to the star crossed lovers, and boy was i disappointed!!!

i am actually now replaying number x on my pc as an emulator because quite honestly my life is in an absolutely shit place in gaming the current games being nowhere near as good as the old.....

 

[Flamezdudes]

EDIT: OH FFS.

Another god damn necro-threader. God damn it.

 

[boag]

This entire thread seems to have devolved into "I like FF , it only went downhill with ", with the first one usually being the first FF the person posting ever played.


The thing about FF, the games are absolutely standalone and barely have anything to do with one another.

Combat system

Art Design

Style choices

Storyline

They all differ greatly, hence why people will have so many different reactions to every other game.

Now its true that some games hold some sort of familiarity with each subsequent sequel.

But FF has always been a melting pot series that tries and tests out as many different things as it can.

So it is ok love and or hate any of the games in the series.

It all boils down to personal tastes.

 

[Sean Hollyman]

10 was my first, and I played it as a small child so I enjoyed it greatly...

ANIMA!

 

[rob_simple]

FFX is the only Final Fantasy post 7 I own but have never properly played (I even completed and enjoyed Dirge of Cerberus) but given that XII is my favourite Final Fantasy I'm gonna say you're in the wrong OP.

Also, not that it really matters and I'm sure this has already been mentioned, but at the time of release Gackt insisted that Squall had been based on him (and when you look at photos of him from the time it's not an entirely baseless claim.)

 

[dimensional]

Hmmm necro thread ok ill play ball seeing as I have nothing better to do personally I thought X was the joint second best in the series alongside VI but below VII it just felt like they had an idea and went with it rather than reiterate but change slightly like they usually do. The combat was solid the characters were good the story was good and it was just enjoyable. I think its a myth that the final fantasy series has gone downhill after installment ? every on is slightly different for me FFII and FFXII (excluding the mmos) were by far the poorest in the series.

 

[FalloutJack]

No, FFX was decent. FFX-2, however...