Finland is the best country in the world...
- Thread starter Cyan.
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Yeah I think in some of the best countries in the world suicide is noticed more!
Whereas in the worst places to live perhaps your death isn't noticed or cared about, or the government chooses not to report it as suicide, or it's not obviously suicide because you could have died to so many other things!
And that was partly my point as well to Therumancer: USA is not unique in regards to domestic politics and sosiological problems, or minority groups. Other countries have them as well, and saying, like to me it seemed Therumance was saying, 'well, we're number 11, but no others have faced the challenges we have. They have not been tested as freedom-loving nations, their ideals and laws have not been challenged on constant basis' is kinda a flawed argument. Every country has problems, some common, some quite naturally unique to them. Implicitly setting USA aside in this manner is, from a certain point of view, quite insulting and elitist. But, preferring to think the best of people, I'd just like to believe it was a case personal bias and inherent differentiation in history knowledge levels between your country of origin and others.punkrocker27 said:
#14 for the UK. Unfortunately the rankings don't account for the large differences in demographics. Finland has less than the population of London, in an area bigger than the entire United Kingdom. That has to lead to a much higher standard of living (i.e, more space creates greater prosperity, less stress). But, meh.
Sounds like you had a pretty bad experience, but I can't say I've heard of too many horror stories.
Last time I was at a hospital I had an annoyingly long wait but I can't honestly say I was in danger.
You can go to a hospital or your local doctor and you almost never have to think about the cost, which is pretty decent.
Does anyone know what they meant by 'political climate' - I assume that has something to do with liberty/freedom?
Shilkanni said:
Finland has such a small population, and fins are quite intelligent and introspective people.... Which means we can be a little gloomy sometimes.
Suicide and murder hits finland hard. Suicides are reported in the news (unlike say, australia, england and america where there is just too many to bother mentioning.... Unless it was a particularly creative suicide).
Murder in finland is one of the worst things that can happen.
When you murder one of us, its like a death in everyones family.
When we had those school shootings a few years back; the entire country was ashamed and sad and a little sick inside.
Also, you need to think about how many "missing persons" big countrys have and think about how large a percentage of them are possibly people who walked out into the forest somewhere and shot themselves...
We're fourth. Ha. I guess overall we're not too bad - relatively stable, peaceful for the most part, most of us are fairly literate. All that sort of thing. Kind of amusing how most of the top ranking countries are the ones that produce the greatest metal as well. Hmm. Curious.
Looking at that list really made me want to move to a Europe.
United States, 11th place, I honestly expected it to by much lower.
United States, 11th place, I honestly expected it to by much lower.
I wouldnt worry to much about that, I checked exactly what was meant by "economic dynamism" and "political environment" to see why the US ranked so highly in both of these... and it turns out they were LIES. Fucked up financial reform clearly means you become second in economic dynamism because screwing up something SO badly and letting something that fucked the entire planets economy continue happening so soon after the economy got shafted IS pretty exciting(!) Thats what it means, how exciting a countries economics is. T_TPalademon said:
And yeah, high score on political environment. Republicans blocking everything, democrats being pussies and most of them being corrupt sure makes a good political environment. Like I said, dont pay attention to it... its clearly wrong.
Notice the things that actually have international statistics are pretty much spot on, those being health and education, and have America being fairly low amongst the rich and developed nations. Probably bulked it up with nonesense because if they just kept health and education America would have been 26th and we cant have that now can we! T_T
Cyan. said:
I was tempted to respond to this in more detail, but figured it would rapidly get off topic, and many people would freak out thinking that I'm flaming Finland when really I have nothing in paticular against it, but I have included a pretty basic response despite your rudeness.
I understand that a lot of people with anti-US sentiments, absolutly love comparisons like this, but I think my original statements stand on their own for anyone who is seriously interested in the topic.
In brief I will point out that even you in your counter-statements have to qualify them somewhat. For example you point out the ethnic diversity of Helsinki, however a couple of cities that act as major exchange centers for a nation doesn't define it. It's like defining Japan by Tokyo, or China by Hong Kong.
To put things into perspective:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Finland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland
Wikipedia isn't the best source out there, but basically Finland is the home of about 5 and a half million people. Your signifigant minorities include Jews which number 1300, and Muslims which number about 900. Incidently your correct that 800 of those Jews apparently live in Helsinki.
It's also pointed out that Finland has tight citizenship and immigration standards. People born in Finland can't even claim Finnish citizenship unless no other nation will take them. Incidently Finland ranks 103 in terms of taking in immigrants, guess who is #1 incidently (with Russia right behind us).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population
The point I am making here is that my initial claims are entirely valid, Finland is not really what you'd call a diverse nation. It also doesn't have to deal with a lot of issues like overcrowding because it's one of the most sparsely populated nations out there (though not the top).
The overall point is that Finland doesn't have to deal with the racial tensions inherant in say having 12% of the population being black, and then dealing with the resulting political and racial tensions that derive from that. Finland doesn't have to deal with the issue, either moral or material, coming from having poor neighbors on your border who come into the country by the millions every year.
I mean sure, Finland might be really awesome if your Finnish, but that isn't because Finland is some massive acheivment in civilization. It's more because Finland doesn't deal with the issues that other, more progressive nations do. Finland doesn't have minorities that equal 12% of the population like some other nations, and Finland apparently keeps itself pure by being very careful about who can actually become a citizen, not even caring about where someone was actually born, indeed going by what is said about it above Finland actually has policies in order to make it VERY difficult for an outsider to become a citizen.
To put things into perspective, one of the big issues in the US with the last election was whether or not "Barack Obama" was legally a US citizen. There are several attacks on this, but one of the most prolific is that while the plane carrying his pregnant mother was en-route to the US he was actually born before it arrived in Hawaii. While Hawaii has a birth certificate on record, there were questions about whether or not it was valid due to reports by people who claimed to have seen the baby delivered. I never cared more about that technicality, I have always been far more interested in the issue of whether he renounced his citizenship to attend school overseas (which is an issue I notice gets skirted around and nobody bothers to address directly, which bugs me). The point here being is that even had he been born in a hospital in Finland, he would not be a Finnish citizen. Along with a very low minority population, we're also looking at draconian immigration policies, where not even being born on Finnish soil and wanting citizenship matters... unlike a number of other nations that are in this competition.
The bottom line is not that Finland is some kind of horrible totalitarian third world country or anything, I mean I'm sure it's a really nice place for those who live there. I simply think such comparisons need to be made keeping other factors in mind. A nation trying to make progress for humanity as a whole by creating an enviroment where everyone can live together with a high degree of freedom, and a *relatively* small and closed nation largely interested in taking care of it's indiginous population of citizens are in totally differant leagues.
Now, I do understand that Finland has made some efforts to be more open to immigration in recent years, however according to one of those wiki articles (or maybe one of the pages linked to them) Finland through it's entire history has apparently only taken in like 156,000 immigrants. To be fair it's only has a population of 5 and a half million people, but even percentage wise that's pretty low. One of the major minority groups is only like 1300 dudes.
Therumancer said:
Allllrighty.
Thats a massive wall of uninformed text you got there.
Lets get a few things out of the way before i begin speaking in a serious note. For everything you say right, you say 50 things wrong.
You used wikipedia as a tool and sir, thats just wrong.
My "rudeness" is northern european directness. Get used to it.
I am not Anti-US in any way, shape or form. People are people. Anyone can be an asshole and anyone can be nice. Dont matter where they were born. American education is narrow minded. Its focused inwardly and focuses on american history and ways of thinking... Which is fine, but is what also leads all foreginers to think of americans as dim and ignorant. I do not share these sentiments.
Yes, Finland does not have much immigration. Its cold as hell up here.
Hong Kong is actually an autonomous state and was a country of its own (under the english monarchy) untill 1997 when england gave it back to china. Even today it has its own laws and government seperate from communist china and is actually a capitalist state. Ive been there. Nice place.
The capital of china is Beijing and yes, i am just being petty about your mistake.
Now, onto serious matters.
Comparisons between US and Finnish immigration are indeed skewed and unfair. However, the same could be said of any nation.
America is big and has a big population. Finland is small and has a small population.
"A few hundred people" actually makes a noticable difference in the Finnish community and you CAN use Helsinki when talking about finland in general, because no fin will ever admit Turku is part of finland and almost 2/5 of the entire population of finland reside within the greater Helsinki region.
Finland did not join the EU untill a few years ago. Now that it is a member of the EU, immigration statistics are skewed beyond belief because there is no borders between Finland and the other member nations of the EU.
You are an American and do not fully understand just what this means. Allow me to explain:
Someone from England, France, Greece, Poland or whereever can just turn up in finland without a border check and without a passport stamp.
Nobody checks you as you arrive on a flight to Helsinki, take a ferry across the gulf or walk across from russia. The usual border checkpoints e.t.c you find in places like America or Australia do not exist.
You get off the plane, pick up your bags and stroll on out of the airport without even seeing a single customs officer. Its impossible to keep track of who is in the country and when. I have visited 9 seperate nations in my life, and i have a total of 1 passport stamp; from Australia.
As an EU nation member you are also allowed to live and work and study in Finland or any other EU nation. All you have to do is register at the police station. Its not the same as immigration.
I know this, because i am not actually a Finnish citizen.
I was born and raised in Australia, with finnish and swedish parients. Australia is full of dickheads, so i returned to the land of my forefathers and am currently in the process of immigration. Not more difficult than any other nation. All it takes is time.
Most true immigrants on the charts in finland are Russian brides, Somalian asylum seekers or Turkish labourers and kebab store workers (thats not racism, its fact).
Everyone else is here to work or study and doesnt need immigration papers.
Finland has also never had borders with its Norwegian and Swedish cousins. Our cultures have intermingled freely for centuries. Hell, finland WAS part of sweden for many hundreds of years and alto a part or russia for a period also. Finland only became a nation to itself less than 100 years ago.
We have always been multicultural to the point of it being LAW that we speak 3 seperate languages.
I would also like to point out that Australia is a country composed ENTIRLEY of immigrants (other than the miniscule aboriginal population) and they managed to rank 4th on this list.
America isnt the jewl of the new world out to save and improve the entirety of mankind. You said america is working towards helping the world by creating a place everyone can live togeather?..... Why do you have closed borders then?
America is YEARS behing the EU on the world acceptance front.
Thats just utter self serving bollocks.
I understand that particular races and beliefs do not mix. There will always be friction in a multicultural scociety however, as i said before, all you are doing is creating excuses.
Invalid ones that other nations with simmilar problems to your own are managing to overcome.
One must always consider perspective.
All nations suffer their own adversitys and growing pains. Particularly a young and ambitious nation like the US. Your government is well organised. Your people are free and well looked after. The only thing holding your all back is your own shortcomings.
In finland - There is almost zero crime.
Houses left unlocked, bikes left outside unchained, cars left running while the driver pops into a store quickly..... Alchohol and ciggerettes sold on the shelves of grocery stores. Fins wait for the little man at the crosswalk to turn green before they cross... even if the road is empty of cars for christs sake.
Fins care about themselves and each other.
What i want to know is why americans cant work togeather to improve their own situation?
You may think that what i said about the people in your country being well looked after is bollocks, but before you say a word, have you ever been to an ex soviet union country? or africa? I know you havent.
What im trying to say is this.
Your nation is young, powerful, beautiful and full of wonder and potential.
All your excuses are bullshit.
The only thing that will bring the american nation forwards is the american people themselves. Embrace and overcome.
Singapore (my fave country) is at 20th with the best economic dynamism...
According to some similar research we did in Geography during the Demographics topic, Singapore was ranked as the best country, with Japan right next to it, and Laos at the bottom.
New Zealand ranks 13 here, sure it has good economy and living conditions but everyone's a complete douche here.
According to some similar research we did in Geography during the Demographics topic, Singapore was ranked as the best country, with Japan right next to it, and Laos at the bottom.
New Zealand ranks 13 here, sure it has good economy and living conditions but everyone's a complete douche here.
I think this pretty much summarizes your thoughts. For claims to the contrary your basically anti-American. Perhaps I did make the mistake of referring to Hong Kong as China's capitol (not sure though, because I certainly rant about Beijing often enough in other posts, sometimes I do make mistake when I type a lot), but otherwise what I said is pretty much true. Pretty much every arguement you made was actually a good reason for why Finland should be excluded, I mean I could take a tribe of 100 people, with two adapted outsiders, and then say "look, they live in absolute harmony, obviously they are far better that other groups of people" and it would be similar to lionizing Finland in this case, though admittedly not identical.Cyan. said:
Wikipedia has been wrong about enough things where I do ageee with you that it is not an ideal tool, on the other hand these articles DO seem to reinforce facts elsewhere. I do notice in your return comments you don't actually deny anything, yourself saying "well a few thousand people means a lot to a country that small" or things along those lines. The point being that you yourself are putting Finland in an entirely differant league in order to defend it. None of Finland's minorities equal 12% of the population, and that's just one of the minorities (Blacks) in the US. That's something you really can't deny.
When it comes to the US closing our borders, we have been doing so in order to prevent illegal immigration and due to terrorist attacks (like it or not), neither of which are a big problem for Finland. What's more we are still pretty open to legal immigration and take in more immigrants yearly than the entirety of the massive "Jewish Minority" of Helsinki.
Oh sure, the US isn't perfect, I'm one of it's worst critics. You on the other hand are taking more of an anti-US position than anything. Largely because my arguement is based on the attitude of "American Exceptionalism" which might be warrent, but tends to piss people off.
Also being the dominant world power we are going to be hated, and largely criticized. Much like "The British Empire" before us. It's just with modern technology there is unprecedented abillity to whine about the big guy. Groups like the EU are more accepted because they aren't the dominant global force as much as they would like to be, put them in the same position and everyone will be screaming about the EU the same way.
I'm not going to rant too much about the US or make counter-points because it's really irrelevent to this paticular discussion. Trust me though, I could, I'm accused of pro-American jingoism all the time.
My overall point isn't so much that the US should be #1, and Finland should be much lower due to it's size and such. Simply that I think differant standards should be used based on size, and social development.
Take a look at that immigration list for example, along with the population figures. As much as nobody wants to be labeled a "socially undeveloped country" I think there should be a seperate comparison for nations like the US, Britan, Russia, Australia, Canada and others, to differentiate them from nations like Finland who are in a totally differant league as far as size, social policy, and immigration.
What's more I think that such a comparison should not just look at services, but also national policies and laws. Unless they got rid of it in the last 17 years or so, Canada's "Blank Warrent" system for law enforcement is something worth consideration when looking at personal freedom, ditto for nations with strong anti-gun laws (despite all the arguements that can be made for such laws)... and yes, there are ones that would logically play against the US like the accessibility of medical treatment.
I'm not saying that the US would nessicarly be #1, though it is likely. Simply that there are very few nations that even operate in the same league. If over 20% of Finland's population were immigrants and minorities, then maybe you could make some arguements for it trying to be a cultural melting pot. Until you see things like that Finland won't have endured enough of a societal "trial by fire". To put things into perspective while Finland would probably deny such a thing would ever happen, if say you had an extra million poor people running around building giant ethnic ghettos everywhere and spreading urban blight as they come into the country with nothing, and spend generations (with an expanding population) slowly trying to overcome that, there is no guarantee Finland wouldn't institute draconian social policies, mass executions, and various crimes against humanity. Many "good" seeming nations have fallen into that trap come crunch time, and the US had to work hard to overcome a lot of problems, ditto for other similar nations, having gone through those pains is what puts them in a differant league. I have no idea what would happen with Finland, and anyone who is honest can't say they would either. Maybe it will happen some day, but until we find out what would happen I feel Finland is in a differant league entirely.